Fastpass policy change?

[Robo]

THANKS, CANADIAN GUY!! As usual, you have arrived as the voice of reason and your analysis of the situation makes so much sense!

And I've been waiting all day for someone using logic to post.

CANADIAN GUY is that "logical" poster.


If you are among those who think trying to use a FP "late" (expired, in the same day) will "clog" the FP Return queues...

Here are some FP numbers to play with.

Let's assume a given round number of FP Distributed for Big Thunder Mountain (100 FP's given out).

35 will be used at the beginning (within the first 5 minutes) of the Return Time "window."

40 will be used at some later time, but still within in the specified Return Time "window."

15 will be used outside (later than) the specified Return Time "window."

10 will be pocketed and never used (guests got busy elsewhere, left the park, etc.)

Those not ever using FP and those using FP outside the window (late) can virtually cancel-out each other in the FP waiting-line.

'Jockey' any of those numbers a bit, if you like, but they should be very close.

The FP system works very well, and with proper "policing" by CM's (if the FP lines do get "too long" during a busy run-like Soarin' or EE- they can refuse a "late" FP at that time) the lines move along quite nicely.

It works well mainly because a FP can only used ONE TIME per ticket.

Its not possible to severely clog the FP line using "expired" FP's because once you USE it, its gone.
If you use it INSIDE the window, its gone (can't use it then outside the window).
If you use it OUTSIDE the window, its gone (didn't use it then inside the window).

One person, one FP ride.
So WHEN you choose to use it is largely (mathmatically) unimportant.

Consider this.
The new YoaMD "Dream FP" is a "universal" FP, that is given to selected families and can be used by the holder for one FP ride, per FP attraction, at any time of day.
That doesn't seem to clog the FP line.

 

[Cool-Beans]

If they start getting firm with FP times, then I hope they give the restaurants little slips to over-ride it for the rare occasions where you have to wait half an hour past your ADR time and then get slow service. It doesn't happen a lot, but it happens.

If their restaurant prevents you from making the FP time, they should fix it.

 

[EnnEss]

I agree with the posts by Cdnguy and robo, but I would guess if this change is coming its to prevent the selling of Fastpasses on ebay and other extreme abuses, and simply enforcing the wording on the ticket regarding when its valid seems the easiest way to do this. Disney wouldn't go to all this effort because of concern over lines, they are well aware lines are a part of the business. I would also presume that eventually they are going to move to a tweaked system that may require pay to them in the form of resort stays or something to that effect and this move would be a pre cursor.

I don't think many in the thread actually think late fpers clog lines, the arguments for enforcing the rules seem to go along the lines of they are rules, why not follow them instead of manufacturing reasons not to. Currently the rules are you can use it whenever you want, and thats how it is, but if it changes it would be expected that everyone would modify their behavior and follow the policy. I think its great if people question policies at corporations and laws governments enact but the argument I'm entitled to something because its my vacation isn't a critical evaluation of anything, its arrogance.

 

[Robo]

There is no confirmed info in this entire thread that WDW is changing anything about the FP system.

 

[MichelleVW]

I get to Disney on Wednesday and will be using collecting FP's to use later in the day and some of them may be (gasp) expired!!

I'll let you know how it goes!!

I really can't believe how upset some people get over this issue...seems really silly to me...

 

[maxiesmom]

Geeze, my family must be stupid. We never thought to use a Fast Pass after it had expired. We just figured it was our fault, our loss, and went on with our day. It amazes me that people actually do that as a way to tour the parks.

 

[JeremyGNJ]

I read a very interesting internet article musing on the Fastpass system that analyzed how it works from someone with a background in economics and that whole "supply-demand" thing... he actually looked at this all from an scientific perspective... He used big words and talked about the 'supply-curve' and such. Of course I can't FIND it now that I need it.

In the article, he indicated that something like fifty percent of all fastpasses were used within their listed time window. Thirty percent were used "late" and twenty percent were never used at all. If what's being reported here is true, that I suspect those percentages might have shifted.

Spoken like an accountant. It's true it is a "wash" from an accounting perspective, and a crowd-control perspective. But allow me to explain why it's NOT from a visitor perspective.


i'm going to use made up numbers for the illustration.

- Lets say for the sake of this argument that Disney gives out 200 FPs for each hour of return time.
- Imagine that it's 4pm at magic kingdom. This means that there have been 5 hours of FP return times since park opening, which means 1000 FP's for that
- Let's say that it's July and the wait time is 1-hour. (just to keep round numbers)
- Through the course of your 1 hour wait, there are all those people you see in front of you AND 100 people who can use fast passes that you dont really see, but they still go in front of you.
- If we assume that 90% of people use their Fast Passes during the time and 10% save them for later.
- This means that while you're in line there are ANOTHER 100 people that can jump in front of you at any time.
- Imagine what the line looks like in front of you when there are "only" another hundred people in front of you....you feel pretty good, you're almost there.
- In reality you're not really that close....you're twice as far away due to people holding onto their FPs until a later time.

Granted, it's a more gradual delay, because those 100 people can "dribble" in, and some of them maybe have gone "late" but not during your hour, or may go after you.

But this should illustrate how it can potentially break the system....especially as more people find out about it. More and more people would not use the FP's to "ride once" but to ride twice, by getting their FP at park opening, and still getting on the standby line because it's so short....then riding again during peak hours when they dont want to wait for ANY ride.

It has the effect of making Peak hours WORSE...and off hours BETTER for everyone who doesnt know the "trick".

 

[pepperderr]

Where can I learn more about fast passes and how they work? I have no idea what you all are talking about. I know you get a ticket to come back to the ride at a later time but that's about it.

 

[Robo]

Where can I learn more about fast passes and how they work? I have no idea what you all are talking about. I know you get a ticket to come back to the ride at a later time but that's about it.

That IS about it.

Its far easier to USE than it is to EXPLAIN-

BTW, I answered your question earlier in this same thread, and this is what I said-

------------------------------

Only certain more-popular attractions offer FastPass.
You must go to the front area of an attraction to get a FP for that attraction.
There are FP machines that dispense them.

http://disneyworld.disney.go.com/wdw/parks/fastPassPopup?id=FastPassPopUpPage

QUOTE:

FASTPASS
Disney's FASTPASS® service is sure to help you get the most enjoyment out of your day at the Walt Disney World® Resort! This free Guest Service saves your place in line, allowing you to venture off and experience more of the wonders of Walt Disney World — before returning to board your attraction with a minimal wait.

 

[CanadianGuy]

Spoken like an accountant. It's true it is a "wash" from an accounting perspective, and a crowd-control perspective. But allow me to explain why it's NOT from a visitor perspective.

It really does come down to separating logic from emotion tho.

If the sign at the entrance said a 60 minute wait.. odds are VERY good that you will be at or boarding a ride vehicle somewhere between 50 and 70 minutes after getting in the standby line.

It may "FEEL" worse because you are so close .. but the reality of it is .. in the situation you describe .. you would DEFINITELY be boarding the ride LATER ... if all the FP riders had used their slips with-in the allotted window.

I can say that with almost unequivocal confidence.

If Fastpasses were used at a rate of 100% within their allotted window.. then after 5 hours.. the stand-by line would (in all likelihood given how statistical probability applies to situations like this with a large number of variables) be longer than the 60 minutes you describe in your scenario.

Not obscenely longer mind you.. but it might be 75 minutes.

This is one of those situations where emotions really do interfere with thinking it all through.

 

[SueM in MN]

>>> kidney infrection
Go get a Guest Assistance Card; they are customized for each holder and can include the provision of extended validity for fast passes.

That is not correct information.
A Guest Assistance Card (GACs) would not allow extended validity for Fastpasses. It is printed right on the card that if you want to avoid waits in line, you should use the Fastpass system.

And, GACs are used to provide CMs with information about invisible disabilities so that appropriate assistance can be given. A bladder infection is not a disability and there is really very little assistance that a GAC could give to someone with a bladder infection.

If you want information about GACs, my signature contains a link to the disABILITIES FAQs thread, which has a section of FAQs about GACs.

 

[Goofy4]

I looked at some of the math being done here and had this thought:

Those purposely cheating the system would likely enter more queues (because they're shorter) in a given day. During the busiest part of the day, if a late FP'er hops on 4 rides, and I only get on 2, the late FP'er delayed (however slightly) a lot more people than I did. Take that to an extreme where 100's of people do this and you have a very noticeable change in average wait time -- very much as if there were actually more people in the park.

Sure, the rides still load the same amount of people, but some people are getting more for their money by riding more rides in the same amount of time. If someone observing the time frame has to come back a second day, while a late FP'er got done everything they wanted to, then you can see where this really can be a significant issue.

 

[Robo]

I looked at some of the math being done here and had this thought:

Those purposely cheating the system would likely enter more queues (because they're shorter) in a given day. During the busiest part of the day, if a late FP'er hops on 4 rides, and I only get on 2, the late FP'er delayed (however slightly) a lot more people than I did. Take that to an extreme where 100's of people do this and you have a very noticeable change in average wait time -- very much as if there were actually more people in the park.

But they DON'T.
Most guests get a FP because the want to ride SOONER rather than later.

A late FP'er delay guests more than an earlier user?

That's so logical that it seems like it MUST be true... but


Later in the evenings, the guest numbers tend to naturally fall on many of the attractions.

Lots of times (BTM, in my example) they stop using the FP line altogether and cover the FP machines. The gate CM for BTW, will take your FP, if you offer it, but there is actually no FP line and you will just join the Standby guests and enter as one group.

There are certain rides... Soarin', EE, Test Track, ToT RnR, maybe Space Mtn and Peter Pan... that maintain their heavy crowds status throughout the day.

But on THOSE attractions, most guests either USE the FP within the window or -in some extreme cases- the gate CMs might refuse a late FP.

The point of my numbers (and again, feel free to change them, I just "ball-parked" them anyway) is that MOST guests do NOT "hold" the FP.

Guests GET the FP because they WANT to RIDE the attraction, and most times, the SOONER the BETTER (it creates the classic gaggle of guests waiting for their return-time at the FP entrance.)

I'm not PROMOTING holding FP... I'm pointing out that its not really a PROBLEM if a small percentage of guests decide to use them late.
There's not a lot of them who WILL do that on a regular basis, anyway.

WHY?
Because if they HAVE a valid FP in their pocket for a popular attraction... they will tend to USE it.
And when they do, its gone.
They are no longer subject to clogging the line later.

"Late" FP returns are not the overwhelming reason for "slow" FP lines.
Its just not mathematically the case.
The chance that "everybody" (or even MOST) who got FP earlier in the day but didn't use them, all showing up at the approximate "same time" is actually very small.

What slows down the FP line is RIDE POPULARITY and the overwhelming number of guests in the STANDBY LINES.
That's the part of the equation that everyone forgets.

The late afternoon/early evening is when many of the lines are very long... about the time the most number of standby guests are clogging the queues.
The CM's don't just load the FP line... they also load a LOT of guests from Standby.
If they DIDN'T load great numbers of Standby guests, those lines would virtually swell to several hours wait-time... and they can't let that happen (especially after the FP have "run out" so early in the day at the few most-popular attractions.)
So by filling the attractions with larger numbers of Standby guests, the FP lines naturally slow by an analogous amount.
Are the FP lines "slowed" by those using "expired" FP's... well, sure, but not enough that it really matters more than a few minutes one way or the other.

 

[dopeyfanatic]

See, Canadian Guy has it right. You just THINK you're waiting longer. In reality you would have gotten on the ride at the same exact time regardless. It takes the same amount of time for those 100 people to go on the ride if 20 of them went on per hour, or if they went on all right before you. And the fact that some people will go on after you means you'll get to ride it a little sooner than you "should" have been able to. It's not really that big of a deal. I don't see why people have to name call about it! Quite immature!

 

[dopeyfanatic]

I looked at some of the math being done here and had this thought:

Those purposely cheating the system would likely enter more queues (because they're shorter) in a given day. During the busiest part of the day, if a late FP'er hops on 4 rides, and I only get on 2, the late FP'er delayed (however slightly) a lot more people than I did. Take that to an extreme where 100's of people do this and you have a very noticeable change in average wait time -- very much as if there were actually more people in the park.

I'm not exactly understanding your logic. How do they go on more rides? They can't get any more fast passes just because they waited to use theirs until later. And how do you prove that they waited less time by going at 2 instead of at 12? The rest of the rides they go on they would still have to go in standby.

 

[ShannonP]

I'm getting a headache...

 

[Robo]

There is no confirmed info in this thread that says WDW is changing anything about the FP system.

 

[ConcKahuna]

See, Canadian Guy has it right. You just THINK you're waiting longer. In reality you would have gotten on the ride at the same exact time regardless. It takes the same amount of time for those 100 people to go on the ride if 20 of them went on per hour, or if they went on all right before you. And the fact that some people will go on after you means you'll get to ride it a little sooner than you "should" have been able to. It's not really that big of a deal. I don't see why people have to name call about it! Quite immature!

That's what it looks like on paper, but it's not how it always works.

A lot of people who hold fastpasses do so because when they come back to the attraction, it may not be very busy. Often they will ride the attraction without using their fastpass. The come back by later, and see a long line, and so use their fastpass at that time.

The time I've seen most people hold thier fastpasses until is when the park is nearing close time. A lot of the fastpass attractions will get a pre firework/parade/whatever rush at that time. Then you have not only the 100 (to make up a number) people who should have had fastpasses for that time period, but also sometimes twice that who have held their passes so they could go again at a busy time.

Adding 100 extra people to a queue IS going to slow the lines down, especially if the ride is running at capacity.

 

[CanadianGuy]

And I'd like to add here.. personally.. I have no vested interest in this, I think I'd actually prefer if Disney really enforced the FP return times -- it would make it easier to explain here on the boards.

And Conck raises an extremely valid point that has not fully been addressed by the accounting examples presented here --- if 'too many' people hold their Fastpasses till 'later' .. then you will see brief periods of congestion and extended delay ... There IS a tipping point to these scenarios we're all throwing out here.

What can happen after you cross that tipping point in any "system" where too many rules are broken -> is all kinds of unexpected results that are almost impossible to predict. One such result is a 'ghost' delay.

I remember when I lived in Los Angeles -- you'd be driving along on a freeway and suddenly traffic would come to a complete stop in all lanes for five or ten minutes.. then slowly it would start inching ahead.

Inevitably I'd be prepared to come across an accident scene but many times I wouldn't see it. I began to think that first responders in Southern California were amazingly efficient.. because they were gone and no trace of the accident !

What was actually happening.. was miles from where *I* stopped ... hours earlier.. there was an accident in heavy traffic. The heavy traffic patterns continued consistently... and the 'stop' in traffic was radiating outwards like a 'wave' and sometimes HOURS after an accident would be miles from where the originating instance has occurred... sometimes on a contributing or branch freeway!

Certainly in a high-traffic (of another kind) location like Disney World -- there are so many variables to consider ...

It is interesting to ponder tho..

Knox

 

[bigAWL]

I was just wondering. Why would Disney enforce this rule? What's really the point of FastPass? I mean what does Disney hope to achieve with the system? They are trying to create a way for a few people to avoid waiting in long lines. But do they really care if it is spread out evenly throughout the day? I don't think so. What they really want is for those people to spend more time buying food and souvies. I think they would RATHER have someone use a fastpass later than not at all. Every fastpass that doesn't get used is potentially someone who gets into the standby line - "I really, really wanted to ride Soarin' and I'm not leaving until I do." That just defeated their financial benefit for giving out that fastpass in the first place.