Disney pulls funding for Boy Scouts over LGBT Ban

[BigAlsGal]

Yay for Disney!!!

 

[bcla]

I was going to respond to the idea that being an atheist is a choice but MouseMomx2 beat me to it, saying everything that pretty much sums up my childhood experiences with religion to a T. The only thing I would add is if someone thinks belief is a choice then they should try changing their beliefs for a day -- Commit to believing in Zeus, Thor, Shiva, etc. I'm sure that person would find it impossible to truly believe in another deity. That's because beliefs are felt, not chosen.

As for why an atheist would be concerned about 'outing' themselves? Fear of discrimination, potentially exposing themselves to violence, or being shunned by their family and/or community. I live in Maryland, a state that is progressive on many issues and where I'm comfortable telling anyone that I'm an atheist. But even here, in this liberal state, discrimination against atheists remains. I am barred, per the state constitution, from holding public office, serving on a jury, or being seen as a credible witness. I can only imagine how much worse it would be for an atheist in other parts of the country where liberal attitudes aren't so prevalent.

That's effectively unenforceable, even if it hasn't been taken off the books. Article six of the US Constitution mentions that no "religious Test" would be required for public office. South Carolina has struck down their law, and all other states that have similar laws won't even try to enforce theirs since they know it would be struck down at the federal level.

 

[Schmeck]

Why not? This is an open forum where people can share different points of view. We don't have to believe the same, doesn't make us right or wrong!
But if you think LGBT doesn't have an agenda, well then, we'll just leave it at that!

Not any more than the group calling themselves "Christians" has an agenda?

I tend to think of it all as more of a constitutional, equal rights, freedom from oppression 'agenda' myself.

 

[jodifla]

I was going to respond to the idea that being an atheist is a choice but MouseMomx2 beat me to it, saying everything that pretty much sums up my childhood experiences with religion to a T. The only thing I would add is if someone thinks belief is a choice then they should try changing their beliefs for a day -- Commit to believing in Zeus, Thor, Shiva, etc. I'm sure that person would find it impossible to truly believe in another deity. That's because beliefs are felt, not chosen.

As for why an atheist would be concerned about 'outing' themselves? Fear of discrimination, potentially exposing themselves to violence, or being shunned by their family and/or community. I live in Maryland, a state that is progressive on many issues and where I'm comfortable telling anyone that I'm an atheist. But even here, in this liberal state, discrimination against atheists remains. I am barred, per the state constitution, from holding public office, serving on a jury, or being seen as a credible witness. I can only imagine how much worse it would be for an atheist in other parts of the country where liberal attitudes aren't so prevalent.

Plenty of people change religions. I have friends and family members who have become Jewish (from Christianity). Those who have gone from Protestant to Catholic. Who have become Buddhist.

Yes, you are born into a religion -- or lack thereof. And then it's your choice to decide what YOU believe.

 

[Schmeck]

What is a core religion?

From previous posts, I'm thinking the poster means hardcore, so-called 'Christian' religions? Not all Christian religions are trying to exclude the gay community though, so I'm not sure.

 

[roomthreeseventeen]

From previous posts, I'm thinking the poster means hardcore, so-called 'Christian' religions? Not all Christian religions are trying to exclude the gay community though, so I'm not sure.

It's just patently untrue that all religions exclude gay people OR believe that it's a choice. Anyone who says that has not done their homework.

 

[Schmeck]

But even here, in this liberal state, discrimination against atheists remains. I am barred, per the state constitution, from holding public office, serving on a jury, or being seen as a credible witness. I can only imagine how much worse it would be for an atheist in other parts of the country where liberal attitudes aren't so prevalent.

Is it because you refuse to 'swear by God'? Isn't there a way around that though? I thought that people were told to promise to tell the truth in threat of jail/fines?

 

[TipsyTraveler]

That's effectively unenforceable, even if it hasn't been taken off the books. Article six of the US Constitution mentions that no "religious Test" would be required for public office. South Carolina has struck down their law, and all other states that have similar laws won't even try to enforce theirs since they know it would be struck down at the federal level.

Oh, I doubt they would try to enforce it. My point is that the discriminatory language exists even at the state "sanctioned" level and, in the time since it was written, no one has cared enough to have it amended or removed. That's because when it comes to efforts of creating equality, fighting discrimination, etc., atheists are pretty low on the totem pole. I'm not trying to say that I'm persecuted by any means -- I get along just fine in my day-to-day life. But the fact remains: Studies continue to show that atheists are one of the most disliked and mistrusted groups in our country, on par or even below people who commit heinous crimes. So it's very understandable from my point of view as to why someone who be hesitant to "out" themselves or their family.

 

[jodifla]

I actually think this will end up being a good thing for the Boy Scouts as it will encourage them to drop the gay ban completely.

There's huge internal struggle in the organization, as many want the Scouts to change their stance. As others mentioned, there are lots of gay families in Scouting, like in my troop. The local groups just sort of ignore the ban.

Now that so many big corporations are dropping their funding though, I think it will force them to do the right thing. I know my local Boy Scout Council has sent strong recommendations to national to drop the ban because it goes against what Scouting is supposed to be.

 

[lauradis]

What is a core religion?

Major would be a better word then core.

 

[blingbowsparkles]

For now, right. Changes are happening.

Well as much as I find excluding someone from your PRIVATE club based on race, sex, religion, or sexual preference ect ect despicable ..... the day our government forces private clubs to change their membership standards whatever they may be is the day we should all admit that we are not really as free as we think we are. May I ask why are you so comfortable with such and over reach by our government?

 

[TipsyTraveler]

Plenty of people change religions. I have friends and family members who have become Jewish (from Christianity). Those who have gone from Protestant to Catholic. Who have become Buddhist.

Yes, you are born into a religion -- or lack thereof. And then it's your choice to decide what YOU believe.

Absolutely, one can change religions or leave it all together as their beliefs change. But I disagree that beliefs are 'chosen' the way one might choose a sweater. When I was younger I tried really, really hard to believe in God but no matter what, I just couldn't convince myself of his existence. You can't make yourself genuinely believe in something if that belief just isn't there.

 

[roomthreeseventeen]

Major would be a better word then core.

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that your statement was way wrong.

 

[jodifla]

Absolutely, one can change religions or leave it all together as their beliefs change. But I disagree that beliefs are 'chosen' the way one might choose a sweater. When I was younger I tried really, really hard to believe in God but no matter what, I just couldn't convince myself of his existence. You can't make yourself genuinely believe in something if that belief just isn't there.

I'm sure there are plenty of Scouts who are either don't believe or aren't sure about their faith. They just don't make a huge deal about it. They are respectful enough to let others believe.

The Pledge of Allegiance still has "under God" in it and our money still has "in God we Trust" on it.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

Is it because you refuse to 'swear by God'? Isn't there a way around that though? I thought that people were told to promise to tell the truth in threat of jail/fines?

Schmeck, this is the part of the Maryland Declaration of Rights that I was referring to. Again, I have a hard time imagining that they would ever try to enforce it, but it's there:

Article 36
"That as it is the duty of every man to worship God in such manner as he thinks most acceptable to Him, all persons are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty; wherefore, no person ought by any law to be molested in his person or estate, on account of his religious persuasion, or profession, or for his religious practice, unless, under the color of religion, he shall disturb the good order, peace or safety of the State, or shall infringe the laws of morality, or injure others in their natural, civil or religious rights; nor ought any person to be compelled to frequent, or maintain, or contribute, unless on contract, to maintain, any place of worship, or any ministry; nor shall any person, otherwise competent, be deemed incompetent as a witness, or juror, on account of his religious belief; provided, he believes in the existence of God, and that under His dispensation such person will be held morally accountable for his acts, and be rewarded or punished therefore either in this world or in the world to come."

Article 37
"That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God;"

 

[roomthreeseventeen]

Well as much as I find excluding someone from your PRIVATE club based on race, sex, religion, or sexual preference ect ect despicable ..... the day our government forces private clubs to change their membership standards whatever they may be is the day we should all admit that we are not really as free as we think we are. May I ask why are you so comfortable with such and over reach by our government?

I do not believe that any entity should be able to discriminate based on a characteristic that someone cannot change.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

I agree, I hope this will encourage the Boy Scouts of America to change their stand on this.

My son and his wife are active in Scouting here in Canada and their children love it. In Canada, the guidelines are:

Do You Have to Believe in God to Join Scouts Canada? Is Scouting a Christian Organization?

No, but you must have a basic spiritual belief. Spirituality has been one of the three main principles of Scouting around the world since its inception more than 100 years ago. Scouts Canada is proud of its commitment to diversity and welcomes members of many different faiths and denominations.

You need not belong to an organized religion, but all members must take the Scout Promise in good faith and leaders may include some form of spirituality in their program for the youth. “God” represents spirituality and for some may represent an actual deity, but it may also mean an expression of your personal spirituality.

"Duty to God" as defined by the World Organization of the Scouting Movement, means "a person's relationship with the spiritual values of life, the fundamental belief in a force above mankind."

Are Homosexuals Allowed to Join Scouts Canada?

Scouts Canada does not discriminate for reasons of gender, culture, religious belief or sexual orientation.

I find the "spirituality" part a bit confusing. It says you don't have to believe in a god, but what is "your personal spirituality?" I'm an atheist - do I have a personal spirituality?

My son says he is a Jedi and believes in "The Force."

But I am glad there is officially and clearly no discrimination based on sexuality.

TP

 

[blingbowsparkles]

I do not believe that any entity should be able to discriminate based on a characteristic that someone cannot change.

Yeah I don't either however I also don't feel our government should dictate our every move. There are obviously people who are OK with doing just that and telling a club that receives no federal funding or tax breaks to do just that negates everything the constitution stands for. Businesses are one thing but PRIAVTE clubs should not be forced to fall in line with our way of thinking.

 

[TipsyTraveler]

I'm sure there are plenty of Scouts who are either don't believe or aren't sure about their faith. Undoubtedly true. They just don't make a huge deal about it. If they did they may be thrown out. They are respectful enough to let others believe. Yet the BSA isn't respectful enough to let others not believe without the threat of possible repercussions, which is a shame.

The Pledge of Allegiance still has "under God" in it and our money still has "in God we Trust" on it. Also a shame.

.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

Yeah I don't either however I also don't feel our government should dictate our every move. There are obviously people who are OK with doing just that and telling a club that receives no federal funding or tax breaks to do just that negates everything the constitution stands for. Businesses are one thing but PRIAVTE clubs should not be forced to fall in line with our way of thinking.

But don't scout groups often meet in schools and churches, which are supported by taxes or tax breaks?

TP