Disney Closing Animal Kingdom?

[raidermatt]

Pete, you know I love ya', but you know as well as I do that AK's attendance is pumped up by the fact that is a part of WDW, and is force fed via the hopper policy. Really, all the parks get a bump from this, but as the weakest of the four, AK gets the biggest bump.

Make it a standalone park and I absolutely guarantee it doesn't remain #5.

Further, the fact that the goal of the park is not to be of the same quality and scope of other WDW parks is a huge problem in and of itself. That entire philosophy IS a mountain-sized problem, even if you and I might like AK itself.

 

[raidermatt]

Scoop, my last post was written before yours...

I completely agree that AK has tremendous potential. I'm sure it has more room for expansion than IoA. In fact, WDW as a whole still has more room for expansion than anyone (thanks to the dead guy).

But 2 points... (1) Potential does not mean results. AK had tremendous potential before a shovel hit the ground, as did DL's 2nd gate. Both still have potential. But if the execution is not there, as it hasn't been (to varying degrees), problems will persist. (2) It doesn't mean much to me if AK has more potential than IoA, or even if future execution is superior. IoA, and other theme parks for that matter, are not WDW's main competition. Disney needs to decide what they want to provide and then just do it. Not look at the guys down the street and ask "are we better than them?".

 

[pheneix]

Well, if I were EUROPA I'd start with this:

>>>I've talked to plenty of people at WDW about plenty of things. None of them are worried about long term problems for AK as opposed to the DCA fiasco. Frankly, the future of AK looks much brighter than IOA because IOA was built as a "Here's the Whole Kit and Kaboodle" type of "full" park with very little room for long term growth and change. In other words, if ya ain't drawn to IOA now, IOA doesn't have alot it can do about it later.<<<

Oh yeah, EUROPA, I agree with you 100%, but I have to give DScoop 10 bonus points because that was one of the more elequent excuses I've seen made for AK's failure creativewise.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by thedscoop
Such an incredibly witty response...

If this is so popular, I'd be thrilled if you could go back and find all these threads and posts where this has happened.

C'mon man. Step up to the plate and back up this statement with some specifics.

Europa:

You ask me a question, I try and give the best answer I have, then you fall back on this:

I know that its the popular thing to do around here ....as soon as a question about Disney comes up they like to point to a worse problem at Universal...

That's such a Clinton-esque response... Guess what buddy-boy...not everything posted which outlines a potential Universal problem is a Disney cop-out.

You have an agenda. Slam everything Disney regardless of whatever it is. That's a sad, sad agenda.

I'll answer both your post. How about you give me a printed source for you comments first. I'll will do a search for the threads that I was speaking of.

"Buddy-boy" - you better check youself the next time you speak to me on this forum. I'm neither your buddy or a boy. So please curb your use of these types of terms.

Sorry to spoil your pigeonholing of me I do not slam everything Disney. Example : While I've not experinced MS I heard its a great attraction and I can't wait to ride it. Yea! Disney. I'm also very hopful that Pirates and the HM moive will be great hits for Disney and I can't wait for them to come out. I was overjoyed when they went back to EE also. So there are three small example where I'm postive for Disney.

Maybe not everything posted about Universal's problem is a cop-out but you were certainly trying to use that as one.
Seems strange that the AK post got turned around and is now bashing IOA though uh?

 

[Planogirl]

I have to agree that many of the threads turn into Universal bashing threads at some point and I don't understand why. Universal is not responsible for Disney mistakes, only Disney is. And I don't bash Disney continously even though I'm in Car No. 3. I enjoy Disney and I enjoy Universal and have an easy time keeping them separated.

Now if you want to bash Six Flags... Actually, even these parks seem to have their fans as hard as it is to imagine.

 

[Minniespal]

I hope that its not true ~ Ak is one of my favourite parks.

 

[DC7800]

Originally posted by thedscoop
I predict that, within 5 to 8 years, AK will regularly be the third most attended park in the United States while Islands of Adventure will see only very limited growth because of its physical limitations.

For Animal Kingdom to rise in the attendance rankings at least two other parks must fall relative to AK. I assume Disneyland Park and the Magic Kingdom can at least hold their own. So, you are also predicting Epcot and the Studios are not only going to see attendance shrink, but that it will drop so much as to fall below an already attrendance-depressed Animal Kingdom? Gee, how the mighty (will) have fallen...

This isn't so much an endorsement of AK than it is a critcism of Epcot and the Studios. Even if the change in rankings were solely the result of growth in AK, it would mean the other parks aren't growing (at best, under such a scenario, they would probably be flat as far as attendance goes).

 

[DisneyKidds]

So, you are also predicting Epcot and the Studios are not only going to see attendance shrink, but that it will drop so much as to fall below an already attrendance-depressed Animal Kingdom? Gee, how the mighty (will) have fallen...

You seem to be missing the big picture that Pirate tried to emphasize. As "attendance-depressed" (if we can legitimately call it that) as the AK may be, it is still the 5th most attended theme park by the AB analysis. Viewed in that perspective it is hard to call the park a failure. So it is the least attended of the Disney parks, so what - that is tough competition.

As for AK moving up the ranks, that would be the result of both the AK picking up new guests and one of the other Disney parks giving way to the AK. I could easily see AK surpassing the Studios in popularity and attendance. You assume that that would mean that the Studios would have to sink to some horrific low, but I don't agree.

 

[blackshirt]

I think the attendence numbers can only be really understood when put into the proper context. These assumptions are based on two givings which I assume are correct. Please correct me if they are not. 1) When a guest visits WDW, and visits multiple parks in the same day, only the first park visited counts in the overall attendence. and 2) When a local visitor visits Epcot for dinner or the laser show, Or the MK for fireworks, this counts as a visit.
If these two assumptions are correct, and I believe they are, then Universal will NEVER come close to official attendence at WDW. The reasons for this are simple enough.
1) AK will be the first park visited on the vast majority of same day multiple park visits. The reasons are numerous, it often opens first, and most importantly, it closes BEFORE dinner, often in the afternoon(many consider 5pm late afternoon, some say early evening, but thats another debate.
2) Most people know that Universal offers cheap annual passes to EVERYONE. Disney, however, offers discounted AP's only to Florida residents. I debate the value of AP's for my family based upon how many times we will visit. For people in Orlando, Tampa, anywhere within an hour and a half of WDW, an AP should be a no brainer(if you enjoy Disney). The point I am making rather badly is that huge amounts of locals visit both Universal and Disney. Dinner at Epcot would count as a visit to a Disney park. A visit to the Hard Rock Cafe at Citywalk DOES NOT count as a visit to a Universal park.
3) IMO, as I have only common sense to back it up, is that large amounts of locals visit Disney for the late parade and fireworks, the laser show at Epcot, and Fantasmic. Universal does not chose to compete with these attractions( I think they should) How many of Disney's attendence visits are locals going to see a nighttime show? These people show up, pay nothing in parking, probably buy next to nothing, enjoy themselves greatly, and vow to return in a month to watch a different show. These ALL count as "visits" to the respective parks but they don't really help Disney financially. In fact, large hoards of locals invading WDW, spending nothing, puts a strain on the infrastructue.
Anyway, my point is that attendence figures are just numbers. Until we have access to the raw data of attendence trends by both companies, the rankings are meaningless.( With the exception that the MK is far and away the most popular park in Florida) There is simply no way for us to track attendence. A family of 4 from Toledo who spend a day at IOA is NOT equal to a family of 4 from Kissimmee who go once a month to watch a nighttime show at Epcot, MK, or MGM.

PS, IMO, this is why nighttime events are being curtailed at MK. Doesn't hurt locals, but it sure hurts the resort customer who is coming up with the cash.

 

[raidermatt]

You know, I did seriously consider the merits of the Pirate's oft-made point about AK outdrawing IoA, and being the 5th most attended park, and therefore can't be much of a failure.

But then I asked myself, what if everything remained the same about the parks, with the exception of switching the locations, and the decorations. So IoA was in WDW and used Disney characters, while AK was at Universal, and didn't have the Disney characters.

Now, I'm not a Universal "fan" by any stretch of the imagination. But is anybody actually suggesting that AK would still be the 5th most attended park in the country in this scenario?

 

[EUROPA]

I will retract the word "popular" as without the search function I have no way to "prove" just how poplar the tactic is. I doubt though however many post I could come up with would be enough to satisfy your challenge anyway.



I do point to these threads that I found in very short time as to how the tactic is used. Once again though you have succeeded in doing just what you sat out to do...take heat off of Disney by pushing it off on another entity. As to the other thread where I "shrunk" away please post a link to it and I will post a response. I must have missed the comments directed at me. However please do not bother responding with more challenges or questions as I have no intent in responding to anymore of your post. Yes I'm sure you will have a witty response but never the less I mean it.

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=398891

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=382114

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=375782

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=360143&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=355825

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=343974

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=344981&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

 

[pheneix]

>>>However, if you're Universal, you have to be fairly concerned that, after being open 5 years now, IOA still hasn't even overtaken its own less "full" sister park.<<<

Just trust me on this, it has overtaken Universal Studios (although admittedly because local attendance never supports USF to the extent of IOA). Heck, IOA has been running longer hours than the Studios for almost a year now.

>>>For the life of me, I still can't figure out why IOA hasn't overcome USF and AK and closed more ground on the other parks.<<<

Because IOA's public awareness has relied on word of mouth until the spring of this year (and for the most part I would classify a Travel Channel special into the word of mouth catagory because of the way the shows are formatted to be from the visitor's POV). Think about it, has there *ever* been a commerical where you see Spiderman hopping from rooftop to rooftop with a scoop full of visitors flying through the air with him? Nope. Has there ever been a commerical with the Hulk tear-assing through a "city" that then cuts to a shot of 32 screaming passengers being blasted out of a gamma tube? Nope. How about two dragons dueling it out in the skies, flying through the air setting forests and towns ablaze, then they start to fly at each head on and morph into roller coasters meeting at the loops? Nope. Other than the drug fantasy commericals and Travel channel specials it took them THREE YEARS to finally come up with a kickass commercial about the resort. It probably wasn't a coincidence that advance bookings at their resorts set all time records the day that the "fairytales and pixiedust" came out.

 

[PKS44]

The attendance at the nonAK WDW parks has suffered since AK opened...AK has also fallen every year it has been open...This year may grow (it has two early entry days to boost its take of those Park Hopper users who will go the first open park--previously it was not in the EE cycle)...AK is a failure because the longer it has been open the fewer people want to go..but it is a failure especially because unlike other parks it has not generated more profit for the company the way it was supposed to...it has not achieved its business goal...In business not achieving your goal is called failure...for Disney this park has not performed..why are they discounting meals at AK and no other park??? Because they have to to get people to eat there. Discounting at Disney is a sure sign of struggle...AK may someday be a great park...MGM is only just beginning to get there...meanwhile Disney Seas is booked as far as the eye can see and is a huge financial and artisitic success....

 

[d-r]

How do you book disney seas? I just walked up and bought a ticket

 

[HB2K]

The person who brought IOA into this thread is Peter. I've stirred a little bit on this thread, but my point was not a Disney Vs Universal, which is on the right path to success (that's another debate all together).

My point is this.

No matter how much you or I like (or dislike) Disney's Animal Kingdom, the fact remains that it lags behind it's sister parks in attendance, it's attendance numbers continue to fall behind year over year, and it's operator feels compelled to tell the public that the park is not what they percieve it to be (NAHTAZU). The general "rumored" guest complaint is there isn't enough to do.

Matt made some wonderfull points about potential vs application. WDW in general has TONS of potential, but sadly I doubt it will be realized with the current management in place . Heck they barely send any capital for the existing infastructure....never mind tapping that potential.

Personally I think Disney's problem is one of perception. The general public goes to Magic Kingdom and EPCOT, both parks which were built by a different mindset....and then expects, rightfully so, that Disney's newer parks meet or exceed their experinces from the other two....which they sadly do not.

I do not see Disney's Animal Kingdom turning any corner perception wise for this reason...

Disney is trying (somewhat desperatly) to make people give DAK another try with the nahtazu campaign. But the problem is nothing has changed from when the general public first came to that conclusion. In other words, it's still a zoo.

If you're banking on E:E turning your park around, shouldn't you time your "give us another chance" message around it's opening?

You change the subject. You cop-out.

Scoop-

Go back and read the posts here....the only subject that got changed was Peter with this statement:

But I get tired of hearing about this "general public" that doesn't like AK...The numbers don't really tell that story unless you surround them with caveots, 'buts' or 'what ifs'...The Park OUTDREW IOA last year...Nuff said!

'E:E' will be a big boost to AK, also don't forget AK & IOA (and other parks) have diferent capacities...So what kind of increase in number is Disney really looking for? I'm sure it's mostly relative to number of multiple a hoppers that can be sold and not the one day admission to AK...

Peter changed this subject and brought IOA into this discussion, which it does not belong.

 

[crusader]

HB2K -

I'll concede that by its' very name, to the unsuspecting public AK would be perceived as "Zoo-like". But no-one actually believes Disney simply built a zoo and added it to its" park. They may believe it is more in line with a safari, which is the sense a visitor gets. So the visuals are working and the old zoo premise is practically a non-issue.

If you look at the vacation planning video alone, which is free and widely distributed you will see an excellent advertising campaign done for this park. It looks very enticing. Also, you cannot ignore the fact that this park has excellent shows which are gaining a terrific word of mouth promotion.

What hurt this park was the expectation that it would be as great as the other three and it really felt like a letdown. Everybody wanted to know what it was like before attending to see if it was worth a special trip and the word on the street was "Don't waste your time". That is the stigma they have been trying to shake for 5 years.

Right now, you are seeing a change. It's not just with E:E. It is because people have since attended WDW and made their own determinations about this park. One thing is certain - the shows carried it. The walkthrough animal attractions are pretty cool but should be extras. The park needs more rides. I am one of those who sees the potential and agree the coaster is big. I am optimistically holding out on this one but have to admit it will be a tremendous success if they handle it properly.

Now if they could just work on the design to promote better flow - we'd be in business.

 

[Peter Pirate]

I readily admit that I used the acronym "USF" in my very first post on this thread when relating a trend that I believed to be true based on a personal observation of certain parks...Those being DAK, US & IOA...It was hardly the start of this recent blather however...I think you would have to look at the following HBK statement for that

But the cold hard facts show that the MAJORITY of guests perceive DAK to be a bad value compared to other theme park options.

I guess I wasn't supposed to infer IOA, huh? If thats the case, then yeah, I hijacked the thread...

Once again I repeat that if AK is a half day park at #5 in national attendance then those following on the list can not be used as continual proof as to what is wrong with the Disney model.

Scoop has magnifciently pointed out how bright the future is for Disney parks - attraction wise (from an optimists standpoint anyway). Not there is not still some clinks in the armour...But I don't believe future attractions or specifically AK is one of them. I think Disney has turned some sort of corner, maybe it's Rasulo, maybe it's happestance, but attractions like M:S, Philhar, E:E & even the Stunt Show indicate a significant change in Company attitude, IMO.

 

[HB2K]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But the cold hard facts show that the MAJORITY of guests perceive DAK to be a bad value compared to other theme park options.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I guess I wasn't supposed to infer IOA, huh? If thats the case, then yeah, I hijacked the thread...

You know what?

I didn't mean to include NON disney parks in that statement, but to me it's irrelevant.

DAK has the lowest attendance of ANY of the 4 Florida Disney parks. There has to be a reason for that. People are going elsewhere. If you eliminate the Park Hopping, let's see how DAK falls against US, IOA, Seaworld, Bush Gardens, heck even against Gatorland.

Disney's Animal Kingdom is a parasite to the rest of the WDW parks. Without the WDW parks, who knows where DAK would fall on that list of attended theme parks.

Will there come a day when DAK will stop leeching off of the other parks and fly on it's own?

Maybe.

Will that day be anytime in the next 3-5 years (or an 8 to 10 year window from the park's opening)?

While debatable, it's doubtfull. One attraction will not turn this tide. Disney has already sacrificed it's good will by releasing a shell of a park, full of attractions which appeal only to a niche audience. It then further sold out it's good will by trying to convince the public to give the park a second chance.

Whatever you want to say about the Nahtazu campaign, Disney tried to convince the public that their first impression was wrong, or that things in the park have changed.

Any people who took the message to heart and went back have found very little has changed since their first impression, and will be DOUBLEY hard to convince that a third chance should be given when E:E opens.

Once again I repeat that if AK is a half day park at #5 in national attendance then those following on the list can not be used as continual proof as to what is wrong with the Disney model.

While DAK may be reporting higher attendance numbers than parks 6 through whatever there is a reason (see the parasite comment above).

Another note: I can use parks 1-4 as proof to show park 5 is what is wrong with Disney now.

Parks were built a certain way in the 70's & 80's. In the 90's Disney decided to change they way they built. The location of the older parks vs the younger ones in attendance records should tell the story succinctly of what is wrong with Disney.

 

[baloo722]

the 1st time i went to AK was april of 200. HATED IT! the only worthwhile thing (in my mind) was the safari. Been ther in Aug 200, jujy 2002, june 2003, & can't wait to go back next month. Every time i go, I find something that I overlooked before. is it the magic kingdom (my fav park) no. but i feel that it is steadily improving...either that or i am giving it more of a chance each time, & it wasn't that bad from the start.

 

[d-r]

"maybe it's Rasulo"

An honest question - what has Rasulo done? I mean, mission:space and philharmagic and disneyland's pooh and tower of terror were before him. I think the fixes on disneyland tom sawyer island, castle, carousel were started before him, right? Bug's land before him. But tomorrowland is a waste land. He let that pirates premiere fiasco happen. So is he the one who approved everest? Because that was obviously in the hopper before him. All I can think of is a wink and a smile about the paris car stunt show. Is that it? Was he responsible for the dca Aladdin show, or was that in the hopper?