DEBATE: When does the "Disney Experience" cease to exist?

Originally posted by SnackyStacky
I hate to get back into resorts, but you think the mods were okay to be built. Suppose, strictly for argument's sake, that I did agree with you (I don't, but....well....you get the idea). NOW, that good becomes bad because he can't FILL all of those rooms in those well-themed resorts. What good is a resort if there's nobody to stay there? Empty hotel rooms = cost increase for all involved.
Speaking of the resorts, I personally do appreciate the moderates. I think that they're less "Disney" but I still feel like they fit in even if just barely. But notice the progression. This goes from deluxes to moderates to the Allstars to Pop Century. I wonder sometimes what's next? I suppose that some of the deluxes and the Allstars are probably filling up the most rooms. But when did quality become secondary to the almighty dollar? When did Disney forget what originally made them Disney? Of course these questions are very subjective. ;)

All of those little wasteful rides like Aladdin add up.
Snackystacky, this is so true! As DisneyKidds so wisely pointed out, shades of gray. Perhaps fading to black? :confused:
 
Good to see you again Mr. Snacky :).
But the bad things he has done far outweigh the good.
On the whole, considering where we are now - I would have to agree. Would you have said the same thing 5 years ago?

Aaagghhhh.....not the moderates again :(. I swore I wouldn't..........but........I.......can't.............help...............aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!

I think the concept of the moderates is a good one. However, it was in one of these threads that I spoke about Walt knowing when to draw the line and Eisner not knowing. I agree that there are too many moderates. I personally don't agree with the 'values' (my personal, subjective 'line in the sand' ;)). However, if someone were to defend the 'values' I bet they would agree that Pop was pushing too far. Heck, they probably should have stopped at Music (or whatever the second AS was).

Aladdin, wasteful? Perhaps in your (subjective) eyes. Just because some don't like it doesn't make it bleak, er.....I mean black ;).
 
Hi folks,

Just returned to the world of the living, crawled out of that grading cave I've been in for a couple days.

Speaking of moderates - you have hit on my biggest beef with Eisner & Co.. These resorts FAIL at their prime intent, at least as marketed. They are intended to provided a themed (albeit limited) resort experience, on property for the family that is looking for a more budget oriented hotel room. However, NONE of these resorts has rooms that will hold more than 4 people. They don't have the day bed option that most of the "deluxe" resorts have. So even a family of 4 that has a boy & girl child either split up mom and dad to sleep with same gender child OR stays at a different resort. A family of 5 (where statistics say 2 of those 3 children will be same gender :p ) can not get accomodations.

This is failure to understand thy target market's needs and characteristics. Had my marketing principles students made such a basic error in demographic analysis they would have seen it severely reflected in their grade. Then of course as many have pointed out those rooms are not filling...

The Professor
 
Speaking of moderates - you have hit on my biggest beef with Eisner & Co.
Ah, Professor - if moderates are something you have strong opinions about you may want to check out a few threads in your spare time (if only such a thing existed). We have discussed the moderate resorts at great length recently. These threads are long, but interesting................

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=253064

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263332
 


Well, "beef" may have been a bit strong. But this was such a fundamental failure of baseline strategic marketing principles that it seriously irks me. I'm not in disagreement with the concept per se - it conceivably has a place if it had been executed properly.

Ok, back to the work they pay me for...or do you think I can pass my addiction to these boards as scholarly research?:p

The Professor
 
Originally posted by DisneyKidds
I think the concept of the moderates is a good one. However, it was in one of these threads that I spoke about Walt knowing when to draw the line and Eisner not knowing.

Look back at my post. I said that he has done good things. But his intentions were not good. And that's a dangerous mix. It leads companies down the path that Disney is now headed. When your motives are driven by profit and not quality, I don't care if you're Disney, Goodyear, or Enron - if your first priority is profit, well, look what's happening with the first, and look at what happenED with the last.

Eisner's motive is profit. And it's spelling disaster.

Aladdin, wasteful? Perhaps in your (subjective) eyes. Just because some don't like it doesn't make it bleak, er.....I mean black .

Whether or not you like Aladdin is beside the point. They have used that ride design one too many times. Not to mention the discussion of "Did Adventureland even really need it?" brings me back to someone else saying that it was strictly to push marketing for Aladdin goods in Adventureland.

So even if you DO like it, and it seems like there's a somewhat large group among those posting here that aren't really sure, the motives were off. And that maybe (BIG maybe) could have slid if it were one isolated incident. But when you set a precedent of ill-driven motives, it all adds up to the state of the Disney company right now.

How many more of those bad things intermingled with one or two good things is it going to take to finally drive Disney right into the ground?
 
Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron who quoted WFHThe difference between money being the goal and money being a tool you use in service of real goal is the difference between Aladdin and Pirates. The Aladdin ride is a cheap and common ride designed to provide a focus for the merchandise. The Pirates ride is a unique, creative tour-de-force, designed to entertain and delight... and it happens to be expensive to do that, so we're selling some overpriced crap to help us pay for it.

Pirates focused on the ride... the merchandising was intended to help supply Disney the money to do the ride right. Aladdin focuses on the merchandising... the cheap catalog-purchased ride was intended to help supply Disney the maximum profit margin on the merchandise.[\QUOTE]

Uh oh. This could be my first disagreement with the good Baron on this thread! Or maybe my disagreement is with Mr. Frozen Head. Don’t get me wrong, I agree with you guys that Aladdin doesn’t fit were it is – and I’m still riding along in car 3. But I just can’t quite reconcile this argument.

While it sounds good on the surface, I submit that this argument could be just as well applied to Dumbo or the Teacups as it can to Aladdin. Let’s compare Dumbo with it’s a small world and the same conclusion could have been drawn. My point is that there should be room for all levels of attractions, A through E. Everything should not be an E ticket. I think it would actually be a problem if everything was an E ticket. A spinner could be a good B or possibly a C level attraction.

What concerns me about Aladdin is that (imo) the theme does not fit Adventureland on several levels (all of which have been stated in prior posts). But yet it got built. So either the imagineers didn’t see the inconsistencies, or they did and management shoved it down their throats. I can bet which one it was.
 


A little catching up to do...

Ohanafamily- Don't be confused. Just look at the results. Look at the recent additions to the parks and make your own judgement. Also, look at how the public at-large reacts (attendance).

As far as what Aladdin could have been, you've got the right idea, but it doesn't have to be a major E ticket thrill ride. If you've been to Universal, think ET. Or even Peter Pan in Fantasyland. With updated technology and effects, of course. I'm not saying copy one of those rides, just that those are examples of attractions that are good family attractions that aren't just copies of an already existing spinner. Surely Imagineers are still capable of creating new familty attractions...

Not that I don't like the Cave of Wonders thrill concept. If they're going to build a thrill attraction somewhere, a ride through the Cave of Wonders would be good for me...

WEDWAY100- I don't think the Head or Baron meant that Aladdin doesn't work because its not an E-ticket and Pirates is. It was more just the rationale used to create and implement the attractions. An A, B or C ticket attraction can still be a creation that is not just a way to sell some merchandise.
 
Originally posted by WEDWAY100
Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron who quoted WFHWhile it sounds good on the surface, I submit that this argument could be just as well applied to Dumbo or the Teacups as it can to Aladdin. Let’s compare Dumbo with it’s a small world and the same conclusion could have been drawn. My point is that there should be room for all levels of attractions, A through E. Everything should not be an E ticket. I think it would actually be a problem if everything was an E ticket. A spinner could be a good B or possibly a C level attraction.

I'd have to disagree there. Can a spinner really be a B or C attraction? Not in my estimation.

We can talk about Walt being an innovator, and I believe that he was, but there was absolutely NOTHING innovative about Dumbo as far as I am concerned. It was simply a spinner. But that was okay, because it was ONE spinner.

Mad Tea Party? Somewhat innovative. In all the times I've been on rides like it at Six Flags and carnivals, I've never been able to control my own spinning. Not to mention that you sit in a tea cup. A clever way to dress up a common carnival ride, and once again, there was (and in my estimation remains) only one of those types of rides on property.

Walt was very clever. The entire Magic Kingdom was one big push for his movies. But while he was advertising, and marketing, he gave you something special. What are you getting from Aladdin? Nothing that you can't get at Dumbo or Triceratop Spin.
 
Can a spinner really be a B or C attraction? Not in my estimation.
The oldest ticket books I can actually see at the moment (1976) have Dumbo at a B. I notice that the decades old ride, the carousel, was only an A ticket.

Contrast with Aladdin, which I've seen referred to as a C ticket, a ride with only nominal upgrades over its now decades old B ticket cousin.

Sometimes I think some people overestimate what then management thought of Dumbo... I think they knew it was a cheap piece of crap that they dressed up as best they could. Same way Walt had them put little Latin signs on the weeds where they couldn't landscape in time for opening.

Doing it then was trying the last possible thing. Doing it now, with the resources available, is not trying at all.

Tangentially, I think that ticket definition has lost its usefulness somewhat by locking a ticket in at a thirty year old standard of quality. A lot of people seem to think of Rock 'n' Roller Coaster as an E ticket... when it's basically some nominal improvements over the decades old Space Mountain, with a shorter ride time. At best RnRC is a D ticket in today's marketplace, and a C rating is not altogether indefensible. Buzz Lightyear is at best a C ticket because it's a basic dark ride (like Peter Pan, Mr Toad/Pooh, and Snow White), and should arguably be less than that since time has cheapened and improved ride technologies. But I see it referred to as an E simply because it generates lines.

WEDWAY100, Matt had it right... the point I wanted to make had more to do with choosing themes for their entertainment value versus their impulse buying potential than differences in the scope of that theme's execution. I'm a huge Snow White's Scary Adventures fan... I appreciate the Magic of the well executed B or C ride.

-WFH
 
The oldest ticket books I can actually see at the moment (1976) have Dumbo at a B. I notice that the decades old ride, the carousel, was only an A ticket.

This is for Disneyland:

1967: Dumbo - C, Rocket Jets - C, Mad Tea Party - B, Carousel - A
1969: Dumbo - C, Rocket Jets - D, Mad Tea Party - C, Carousel - A
1970: Dumbo - C, Rocket Jets - D, Mad Tea Party - C, Carousel - A
1975: Dumbo - C, Rocket Jets - D, Mad Tea Party - C, Carousel - A
 
Dumbo... I think they knew it was a cheap piece of crap that they dressed up as best they could.
Fine, let's call it a cheap piece of crap. That just goes to show that a cheap piece of crap could become one of the most endearing rides in the MK. So how do we explain that? Have people been settling for crap since 1972 the way we say people settle for crap now if they think that Aladdin is a worthy addition?

I think that a simple ride with a strong tie in to a popular animated feature can be very 'Disney', and Dumbo proves that. People seem to think bigger is better, that E-ticket rides are the be all and end all - but that isn't so. Sure, Disney should put in more E-tickets, but additions like Aladdin in the interim are good.

So one Dumbo spinner is OK, but two are wrong? Who is decrying Pooh/Snow Whites Scary Adventure/Peter Pan - all similar ride mechanisms/concepts? One could argue that Space and Thunder Mountains are not much different ride mechanism wise, and nobody finds fault there. Seems to me that having rides based on similar platforms that are differently themed is fine, always has been, and I see no reason why that should be different for the toddler set.
 
I know that this is showing my ignorance, but what are the definitions of "A-E Ticket Rides".

The merry Go-Round is an A-Ticket,
I like Buzz Light Year, only a C Ticket.. what makes up the difference; shouldn't the shooting option innovation bring up the ticketness?

Please Explain, without the "CR@P" words... this is a family place... I hear enough of that language without having to read it in a "Civilized Place"
:bounce:
 
So one Dumbo spinner is OK, but two are wrong?
One spinner as a last ditch effort with limited funds in the relative technological backwater of 1970 to give the guest more to do is OK (note use of "OK," not "100% Disney Magic"). Two spinners that at one time represented 67% of new WDW ride installations while the company is spending billions in the technological wonderland of the New Millenium to give Disney something to hang their plush carts and carnival games off of is much worse (note use of relative term "worse," not absolute term "wrong").

You know, I saw your post about others acknowledging shades of gray, so it's particularly disappointing when you turn around and reduce what I say to black-and-white.

I understand that there are shades of gray and we all judge those shades differently. I am not advocating some precise shade of gray as Magical, I'm just saying if Magic is black and ordinary is white, we should expect from Disney grays that are consistently and significantly blacker than what we're getting.

My points nearly exclusively deal with the underlying creative infrastructure of Disney's products, not the enjoyment anyone gets out of the products. Less-than-good intentions and processes can produce good results, it just happens that way sometimes... and good intentions and processes can produce less-than-good results, in the same way. I agree with you in that, nothing's black and white.

But I believe good intentions and good processes will produce results judged as "good" by more people, more consistently, than will the less than good intentions and processes. Therefore, the "gooder" the intentions and processes, the better the expected results.

I don't believe one can go in and produce "results" out of whole cloth... one uses tools (processes) to make ones goals (intentions) real enough to send into the world... then the world tells you what the "results" are. So I don't think saying "make a popular ride" is a meaningful business directive. I believe that saying "improve our tools and raise the bar on our goals" _is_ a meaningful business directive, and is the best way to improve one's chances for successful results, and, now that I think about it, is about as good a defintion of "Disney Magic" as I've ever accidentally stumbled across while writing my posts.

My complaints about the intentions and processes used in creating Aladdin are not intended to precipitate that ride's removal and destruction... what's done is done and if people like it, great.

I just think that if Disney continues to commercialize their intentions and budget cut and outsource their processes to death, they will continue to struggle as they turn out products that people, on the whole, fail to judge as "good."

What I'm suggesting is positive action on the end where it might make a difference. You may feel free to disagree with that plan. But taking my point, removing its heart and reducing it to "one spinner = Magic, two spinners = evil" only makes me wonder whether you didn't understand my point or if you just ignored it.
That just goes to show that a cheap piece of crap could become one of the most endearing rides in the MK. So how do we explain that?
What's to explain? It's human nature. Sometimes crap sells and is enjoyed. I have an entirely unhealthy love for the cheap crap known as the McDonald's cheeseburger... I just don't harbor any illusions about the quality of the ingredients or the care in the preparation, and I don't feel the need to be defensive about liking something that's obviously crap: it's cheap fast food, and you get what you pay for.

I think Aladdin is the Disney ride version of Fast Food. Disney built its reputation with rides like Pirates, the Disney ride version of a multi-course meal. Particularly now that Disney is struggling, I think it's a good idea to go "back to basics," which means, in this analogy, making the full course meals upon which the brand was built.

I have nothing against fast food per se, my only personal problem is that the full course meals I grew up on and crave are now only available as leftovers, and my only business-related problem is that the customers don't seem to be buying the fast food (which I attribute at least partially to the sacrifice of Disney's brand association with the full course meals), putting the company in a bad position.

Dumbo is fine, Dumbo is fun. Dumbo just isn't the compelling reason that people on the whole go to Disney World. I think Disney needs more compelling reasons for people on the whole to go to Disney World.

I don't know whether you consider "compelling reasons... to go to Disney World" white or black, but I'm saying it's better if our shade of gray moves in that direction, and the more it moves that direction, the better off Disney is likely to be.

-WFH

PS: Hopemax, interesting about Dumbo being a C at DL and a B at WDW. Does anyone have any WDW tickets earlier than '76 lying around? Did Dumbo WDW begin life as a C and get lowered, or was it always B?

It's surprising to me that some DL rides gained a ticket by growing a couple years older. Although I suppose if you're running a ticket book system for ride passage, then you _do_ have to swap ticket around based on the rides' relative popularity, if only for controlling lines. I wonder if that's where the "ticket rating = line length" equation originated. Of course, that would mean today's A tickets are the walk-on Pirates and Spaceship Earth and the E tickets are the half-opened counter service restaurants...
 
Keep in mind through all this that some of the best-loved rides weren't "E" tickets. One of my all time favorites was "If You Had Wings" which was, I believe, located where Buzz Lightyear is today. The song was catchy (I can still hear it in my head) and the images and motion made it a really fun ride. We must have rode it a hundred times during the 1970's and early 80's. Similarly, my Mom's favorite was always the Tiki Birds and we endured that one repeatedly. Dad loved the Hall of Presidents. That show is themed beautifully and quite a marvel of animatronics and research and costuming -- but to this day I fall alseep in it. Just because an attraction is top-notch doesn't mean it will be a favorite -- and vice-versa.
 
Is the MK a complete park that will keep people coming back. With rides Like Splash, Thunder, Pirates, Space Mountain, JC and Haunted Mansion in place aren't these the mainstays that bring in the people in. Aren't rides like Pooh, Buzlightyear and Aladdin sort of like updating to sort of tweak the expierence. Peter pan and Snow White are still very identifiable, where Toad was not. I think that is going to be more of the norm. Dumbo has always had a line for it, why not give more to the kids. Alladin is just that, something more for the kids. Isn't that the demographic that Disney markets MK to.

At this time Disney does not have to add a new E-Ticket ride to keep them coming at MK. The other parks need those rides, Gee Whiz is going to be developed for the older teen and above market. Future updates for the MK concentrate on the Disney marketable characters and animation. Next up will be a 20K makeover that involves the little mermaid is my guess. Give what they want, not what you think they may want.
 
Originally posted by Patch'sD
Alladin is just that, something more for the kids. Isn't that the demographic that Disney markets MK to.

But see, therein lies the problem.

Disneyland was created as a place to take the entire family, where EVERYBODY could enjoy the rides. There will be rides that some people don't like, and that same ride will be adored by others. (ie Dumbo....and I happen to be one who doesn't like it)

Walt NEVER seperated anything into "kiddie" rides, because that's EXACTLY what he was trying to get away from! He hated taking his kids to the carnival because he was bored!!! He wanted to do stuff too. Enter Disneyland! A place where parents and kids can enjoy the rides together.

But it doesn't just stop there. Disneyland was for EVERYBODY to enjoy, whether children are involved or not.

What do you get when you add all that together? A demographic that includes people that are just a few days old to those who, if people lived that long, are 200 years old. It didn't matter if someone who was 23 years old came by themselves, or if a newlywed couple came with a newborn. EVERYBODY could enjoy it.

When I said that one spinner was okay, I never meant that more than one was "evil". Walt's Frozen Head elaborated on exactly what I had meant when I said what I did.


Ohana, I've never researched it, but from what I can gleam from these discussion boards (all of them, not just news and rumors):
A - E tickets were how things were priced intitially. I don't know if there was a gate entrance, but you paid per ride. The higher the ticket letter, the more expensive it was, but the higher the calibre of the ride. So an E ticket ride was more expensive than an A ticket, but it was also supposed to be a cream -of-the-crop type of ride. (Hence the E-Ride Nights....nights when the E-ticket rides are open...)
 
My esteemed Head...................

That was quite a post, and very well written. I agree with a lot of it, and did not choose to ignore your main point. Rather, over on the 'Commerce' thread a certain Raiders fan embraced your concept (now known as the Pre$$ler Principle?) that Aladdin was nothing more than a plush sales vehicle. I don't agree that that was the case, but I do agree that if that were to be the underlying motivation for action taken at WDW that it is very bad, a fatal flaw :(. I had no intention to take the gray out of your palette. My humble apologies if you go that impression. Actually, you were not the one that said that one spinner was ok and two was bad. That part of my post was directed at the Snacky one ;).

Now for the specifics............and we agree on a lot more than one might think (you know - back to those fine lines and shades of gray).
One spinner as a last ditch effort with limited funds in the relative technological backwater of 1970 to give the guest more to do is OK.
Whatever it was, it worked, as you acknowledge. Fact of the matter is that, for the target audience (the toddler set), it still works today. Sometimes the simplest things are the most fun for the little ones.
Two spinners that at one time represented 67% of new WDW ride installations
Now it is you who ignore my point. I agree wholeheartedly that Disney should be adding more E-ticket rides. The MK is probably least in need of them, but more major rides should be added. I don't think that rides like Aladdin should represent the majority of WDW ride installations. However, in the interim a ride like Aladdin is OK. A lot of things beside Disney mistakes have conspired to keep them from making the large capital investments that E-ticket rides require, the economy and 9-11 being the major ones. But look at what we have coming up - M:S and a Spain pavillion in Epcot, rumors about Forbidden Mountain in AK that are getting stronger, more entertainment offerings, all on the heals of things like RnR, which wasn't added all that long ago, relatively speaking. I can understan people losing patience, but in time things will balance. A couple of years from now major E-tickets will represent 67% of installations. A couple of years after that maybe the C's are back to 67% - ebb and flow, ebb and flow...................
while the company is spending billions in the technological wonderland of the New Millenium to give Disney something to hang their plush carts and carnival games off of is much worse.
:confused: Ok, I'm with you on DinoRama, and I know your position on Aladdin, but billions?
But I believe good intentions and good processes will produce results judged as "good" by more people, more consistently, than will the less than good intentions and processes. Therefore, the "gooder" the intentions and processes, the better the expected results.
Agreed.
Disney built its reputation with rides like Pirates, the Disney ride version of a multi-course meal.
Eh....I think the reputation is a result of the sum of all the parts. Something for everyone. I can bring my 3 year old to the nicest 5 course meal, but she's still probably only going to eat one simple course. I bet we could get a 10 pager out of this reputation question alone ;).
 
Originally posted by Walt's Frozen Head

I have nothing against fast food per se, my only personal problem is that the full course meals I grew up on and crave are now only available as leftovers, and my only business-related problem is that the customers don't seem to be buying the fast food (which I attribute at least partially to the sacrifice of Disney's brand association with the full course meals), putting the company in a bad position.


Mr. Frozen Head,

My, you have very well thought out positions for a guy with a frozen head. And, after clarification, your analogies seem to be right on target. I presume you are in car 3 as well?

As for the quote above, I have one thought that keeps nagging at me so maybe we all could address it here. I’m not so sure that there has been a complete lack of E-ticket attractions implemented recently. There may be a lower ratio of E-tickets to A-D tickets, but there have definitely been attempts. In particular, I am thinking about Test Track. There was a good deal of money spent on this attraction. It was sponsorship money, but it was still quite a large budget attraction. However, Test Track falls short for me. It’s not a GREAT thrill ride, and it’s not a GREAT show. It’s all somewhat bland. I feel the same way about that attraction as I do about the movie Pearl Harbor. $100M+ to make the thing, but it got off course somewhere, and the end product is not the Wow that I hoped for.

I am now thinking that an E-ticket attraction might not always be the great hit they hope for. Just as movie studios make bad movies on blockbuster budgets, Disney can make bad attractions with E-ticket budgets. I’m sure that the execs that have to green light these things probably lose sleep from time to time.

So back to your analogy: with Test Track, they gave us a new five course meal, it just didn’t taste very good to me.

For those of you asking about the A-E tickets, originally, at both DL and WDW, you bought a ticket book. The book had a general admission ticket, and an assortment of A through E tickets. When you ran out of tickets, you could buy more inside the park. Examples of A ticket attractions are the carousel and the horse drawn carriage on Main Street. Examples of E tickets were Pirates, the Haunted Mansion and the Matterhorn. At the time I went, an A ticket was about 10 cents and an E ticket was about $1.00. It should also be noted that there were some free attractions throughout the park. If You Had Wings at the MK was free as well as Great Moments with Mr. Lincoln at DL.

After going to the all inclusive admission tickets, these A-E tickets were no longer used. The benefits of the new ticketing system is obvious, but there are some aspects of the A-E tickets that I think have been lost. The primary loss is the automatic rating system that it created. Since you knew what each ticket cost, your expectations were set before you experienced an attraction. You did not pull out an “A” ticket and expect to get a ride like Pirates. Since the implementation of the all inclusive ticket, it seems that all people want is a park full of E ticket state of the art blockbusters. For me, the Disney experience includes all levels of attractions, as long as they are well done.
 

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