DAS Outrage vs Genie Plus Outrage?

[irlandaise]

lol, didn't notice that, sorry. RotR for sure. Not familiar with Blue Bayou - any table service meal would suffice in my example, though. At MK, BOG and 7DMT are close in proximity to each other and both are major time commitments.

Gotcha. FYI, if you ever get to Disneyland, you have to go to the Blue Bayou. It's pricey, but the atmosphere can't be beat: it's inside Pirates of the Caribbean.

 

[gelatoni fan]

I feel that the outrage related to DAS is related to both users of DAS and Disney while outrage related to Genie+ is mostly directed at Disney. If someone isn't using Genie+, they personally decided not to spend the money. If someone doesn't have a disability, they can't legitimately use DAS. If you don't have a disability, in one case, you had a choice but in the other case, Disney says one group of people gets certain advantages and it's wrong for you to get them.

To make things fair, Disney could make sure that DAS users can't just get a pass and then go off to eat or do other things in the park. Then, there wouldn't be such a big incentive to lie and abuse the system.

I've heard that DAS use is 3 times higher now than before Genie+ was introduced. It seems pretty clear to me that part of the problem is that by removing free fastpass, people are choosing to abuse DAS instead. While dishonest people should be called out, Disney is also at fault for increasing the incentive for people to abuse the system.

If either of these incentive problems are dealt with properly, DAS abuse would be nowhere near as common as it is now.

 

[Jperiod]

I feel 100% the abuse is due to the rising costs which have always outpaced inflation. We've been going to disneyland annually since way before kids. We regularly went at least 3 days, sometimes 4-5, with just the 2 of us and used the FP system. Not only could we afford to go that many days, but there was no sense of urgency because we had plenty of time to do everything, and even took half days.

Once our first came, we started going 4-5 days because we needed to take more breaks and go at a slower pace. We could still afford it, even down to one income, and still got (most) things done. I say "most" because my son was diagnosed with autism at age 4. There were rides we had to do rider switch on or skipped altogether because of his issues prior to his dx. And we needed those 5 days so we keep all the breaks.

When I found out about GAC (at the time) after he was diagnosed, it felt like a miracle and we felt "normal" for the first time. We rode rides we hadn't been on in years or able to do as a family because GAC allowed us to avoid the queues that triggered him. We were also able to spend more time in the parks before his "tolerance bank account" ran dry. We still went 5 days because disney was the only place that made us feel like a normal family. Our son loved it, it was truly magical for him.

Fast forward to now. My son is 19 and still autistic. He's very high functioning, but the fact of the matter is his "tolerance bank account" still depletes at a faster rate than the rest of us. Every queue he has to stand in -- dealing with the smells and noises, holding himself together with adequate space around him when everything in his body just wants to crash around like a human bumper car -- is exhausting and makes multiple "withdraws" from his account. And once his account is empty, that's it. He's done for the day and it doesn't reset until the next morning. DAS enables him to stay at the parks longer and enjoy multiple rides with us -- we feel like a "normal" family. Doing "nothing" between those rides would cause him to deplete just as fast, if not faster, because of the anxiety and boredom. This does nothing for those on the spectrum and their families. Think of it this way, if my son can only last 6 hours in the park, DAS helps us make the most of those 6 hours to feel like we had a "normal" disney day like other families with rides, food, and shows packed into that short span.

But now disney costs MUCH more, both tickets and food. We can't afford to go 5 days anymore. I paid twice as much for 3 day hoppers with genie+ in December than I did for 5 day hoppers in 2019. The free FP services are gone and replaced with a horrible version limiting one ride per day, and not even every ride at that! You still have to pay extra for OLD rides like RSR! The DAS is far superior to genie+, saving $50+ a day. OF COURSE, there's going to be more abuse!

So personally, I would gladly welcome showing proof of disability. This is so much easier than fumbling to explain how certain lines still trigger my "normal-looking" 19 year old into 3 year old temper tantrums.

And disney needs to wake up and offer a genie+ product with more value than the DAS. Back when we had maxpass, I actually used that more than the DAS because we still had to run around to the stupid umbrellas.

 

[Lumpy1106]

In The Beginning, Disneyland was absolutely a pay-more-get-more experience. The switch to pay-one-price was not until 1981/1982.

https://d23.com/e-ticket-memories-five-favorite-facts-about-ticket-books/

The difference for me is that Disney sets the rules of engagement. For me, the choices are: visit based on those rules of engagement, or do something else. The people lying to acquire DAS are using a third option that I consider unethical.

What gets lost in the nostalgia of ticket books is just how much people hated ticket books at the time. You ended the day with a bunch of worthless A tickets (the Main Street vehicles that close 1/2 way through the day) or riding a bunch of B and C attractions you have no interest in while your family fights over which E ticket attractions you get to visit and which ones get skipped. Unless you have an unblemished, un-used ticket book, they aren't even worth anything on EBay.

I was one of the first people to use a Passport ticket that got us on any ride. We got it through a deal where my Dad worked and couldn't get them at the ticket booths at first. You would have thought we were celebrities - EVERYONE wanted to know where we got them and how they could get them.

 

[Brian Noble]

One difference between that and G+ is that Disney will sell G+ to anyone.

 

[Pluto468]

I feel 100% the abuse is due to the rising costs which have always outpaced inflation. We've been going to disneyland annually since way before kids. We regularly went at least 3 days, sometimes 4-5, with just the 2 of us and used the FP system. Not only could we afford to go that many days, but there was no sense of urgency because we had plenty of time to do everything, and even took half days.

Once our first came, we started going 4-5 days because we needed to take more breaks and go at a slower pace. We could still afford it, even down to one income, and still got (most) things done. I say "most" because my son was diagnosed with autism at age 4. There were rides we had to do rider switch on or skipped altogether because of his issues prior to his dx. And we needed those 5 days so we keep all the breaks.

When I found out about GAC (at the time) after he was diagnosed, it felt like a miracle and we felt "normal" for the first time. We rode rides we hadn't been on in years or able to do as a family because GAC allowed us to avoid the queues that triggered him. We were also able to spend more time in the parks before his "tolerance bank account" ran dry. We still went 5 days because disney was the only place that made us feel like a normal family. Our son loved it, it was truly magical for him.

Fast forward to now. My son is 19 and still autistic. He's very high functioning, but the fact of the matter is his "tolerance bank account" still depletes at a faster rate than the rest of us. Every queue he has to stand in -- dealing with the smells and noises, holding himself together with adequate space around him when everything in his body just wants to crash around like a human bumper car -- is exhausting and makes multiple "withdraws" from his account. And once his account is empty, that's it. He's done for the day and it doesn't reset until the next morning. DAS enables him to stay at the parks longer and enjoy multiple rides with us -- we feel like a "normal" family. Doing "nothing" between those rides would cause him to deplete just as fast, if not faster, because of the anxiety and boredom. This does nothing for those on the spectrum and their families. Think of it this way, if my son can only last 6 hours in the park, DAS helps us make the most of those 6 hours to feel like we had a "normal" disney day like other families with rides, food, and shows packed into that short span.

But now disney costs MUCH more, both tickets and food. We can't afford to go 5 days anymore. I paid twice as much for 3 day hoppers with genie+ in December than I did for 5 day hoppers in 2019. The free FP services are gone and replaced with a horrible version limiting one ride per day, and not even every ride at that! You still have to pay extra for OLD rides like RSR! The DAS is far superior to genie+, saving $50+ a day. OF COURSE, there's going to be more abuse!

So personally, I would gladly welcome showing proof of disability. This is so much easier than fumbling to explain how certain lines still trigger my "normal-looking" 19 year old into 3 year old temper tantrums.

And disney needs to wake up and offer a genie+ product with more value than the DAS. Back when we had maxpass, I actually used that more than the DAS because we still had to run around to the stupid umbrellas.

Thanks for this long and thoughtful explanation. Your son reminds me so much of my DD.
~

One of the problems with this new DAS program is that all neurodivergent people are unique and have different triggers. And not everyone on the spectrum has an "Official" diagnosis. Not to mention, there are so many challenges people have besides "Autism or similar" that would be helped by using DAS.

When we've registered for DAS in the past they didn't want to know my DD's diagnosis, they only wanted to know how she feels in the line/how waiting effects her. But now maybe they will be asking for the diagnosis? It would be helpful to know what information they'll need ahead of the video call.

I wish Disney had waited to announce this until they had all the details worked out, because it's been so stressful for everyone wondering how it will work now, especially those with trips between now and June 18.

 

[Lumpy1106]

One difference between that and G+ is that Disney will sell G+ to anyone.

Lots of differences actually. I wasn't skipping any lines, the Passport was one fixed price, not ala carte, and the only reason the sales were restricted is it was a pilot program to see how well it worked and if people liked it better than the ticket books. They pretty quickly opened up sales of Passports in the ticket booths, then also pretty quickly eliminated ride/attraction tickets altogether. IOW, kinda the exact opposite of G+ if you think about it, and people loved it.

 

[Jperiod]

People hate to be nickel and dimed. Make one price. Including all the individual lightning lanes in genie+ for one price would at least be a step in the right direction of making DAS less appealing.

How many of us have spent more for "free shipping" vs just buying less and paying for the shipping? It's a basic marketing strategy and Disney is being clueless at the detriment of their guests with disabilities.

 

[JerrodDragon89]

People hate to be nickel and dimed. Make one price. Including all the individual lightning lanes in genie+ for one price would at least be a step in the right direction of making DAS less appealing.

How many of us have spent more for "free shipping" vs just buying less and paying for the shipping? It's a basic marketing strategy and Disney is being clueless at the detriment of their guests with disabilities.

Fresh baked said even giving every guest one Genie Plus could help

For the Price of the Parks, would be nice if they could meet in the middle more

 

[NorCalFanatic]

Fresh baked said even giving every guest one Genie Plus could help

For the Price of the Parks, would be nice if they could meet in the middle more

I saw that as well and thought that was an excellent idea. Give everyone one Genie lighting lane. Want more, buy Genie +

 

[Brian Noble]

People hate to be nickel and dimed.

True.

But, there is no problem to solve here. G+ has been around for two and a half years now. Domestic attendance is doing just fine, and revenues are up in part because of G+. People might not like it as much as "included" but they are still coming, and many are paying the extra for the service.

 

[JerrodDragon89]

True.

But, there is no problem to solve here. G+ has been around for two and a half years now. Domestic attendance is doing just fine, and revenues are up in part because of G+. People might not like it as much as "included" but they are still coming, and many are paying the extra for the service.

To you maybe but Genie Plus Backs up the line

FP was 50/50 system, new system when a ride breaks can make the normal line stand still. If park tickets were cheap then sure but at most days cost over 169 dollars for a ticket.

Genie Plus needs some adjustments like stopping letting people grab slots when a ride is down.

Per Frreshbaked and many other bloggers with inside sources the issue started to get worst after Max Pass went away. So there is an issue here your paying more for less when you get a ticket at Disneyland.

 

[Brian Noble]

When I say there is no problem to solve, I mean from Disney's point of view. Attendance is fine and revenue is up.

 

[smartlabelprint]

I think there's probably a distinction here that might clarify this.

On the one hand, I don't see anything wrong with, for example, a DAS user with MS drinking something to regulate their body temp., or a diabetic eating something to raise their blood sugar, while they "wait" wherever they are "waiting" .....or something similar to that. That's because those activities could be done by someone in the traditional queue. And maybe the DAS user doesn't have the ability to plan for the onset of the condition that requires the drink/food, and so it would only seem fair that that DAS user can "stop waiting" and take care of their needs without going to the back of the "line" (using quotes in this paragraph because these are activities that are happening virtually in the DAS matrix). I don't think anyone would debate that.

On the other hand, I'm not aware of any disability that is fairly served by grabbing a return time to 7DMT right before your BOG reservation (which, right now, is a perfectly legitimate thing to do). No non-DAS user could both wait in line and enjoy a table service meal at the same time. Both are time-consuming activities, so being able to do both at the same time is a huge advantage. And huge advantages are okay, as long as there is some need that is being reconciled by them. But, I can't think of a situation where that type of advantage is justified by a condition, which is why I said this is one area where I think DAS is broken. I'm interested to hear if you have a different take on that type of situation - maybe you could convince me, or point to a disability that is served by this behavior, because I CERTAINLY do not profess to know everything.

I think the long line/table service meal example is one draw for the DAS scammers. If it were eliminated, there would be less reward on which to risk a lifetime ban. And, as someone who has a DAS user with permanent mental disabilities in their group, if I'm picking between cutting this type of behavior out, and cutting out individuals with physical disabilities and implementing a return-to-line scheme for them, I'd pick the former 10 times out of 10, even though that would, in theory, be in opposition to my own self-interest.

I understand your point about Disney wanting you to spend money elsewhere. I truly hope that is not at all guiding their decisions on DAS policies.

My kids have DD, so that’s the perspective I’m coming from. I absolutely agree if you can wait for a long line ride while waiting for your DAS, are you really disabled enough to need DAS? My kids can’t wait longer than 15/20 min and it’s pushing it. We’ve had to get out of LL lines multiple times because they can’t tolerate the wait. That makes me hopeful that the changes will curb some DAS abuse and make it easier for my kids.

Theres no way we could do table service on a park day so I’m not sure I have an opinion. How is that different than taking a break at your hotel?

We always take a hotel break. Usually 3 hours morning (can’t handle rope drop chaos) & 2ish hours after eating quickservice in the parks when we come back

 

[AurumPunzel]

The real losers in terms of the changes ends up being the international visitors, since many would have already spent $1000s on a package, and for some, the bulk of the cost goes on flights alone. Getting G+ would add up very significantly, whereas the old FP system was free, and a unique perk that set the Disney Parks apart from competitors. And changes to DAS in the US parks is going to be even more problematic for international guests, since the new system can only be accessed within the US, which makes me think that the reason why is because, particularly in Europe, there are patient privacy laws that are far more strict than HIPAA, and that the provider hasn't bothered to take into account compliance. Although the old system didn't work overseas anyways - which required international visitors needing DAS to have to do it upon arrival - the new system makes it even harder. That needs to be addressed.

 

[piccolopat]

The preselected rides with DAS surely was an incentive for some to game the system. Allowing guests to wait outside the line is a great accommodation but perhaps they should not allow them to ride something else during that wait. That would remove another incentive for cheaters especially since a DAS return time wasn't restricted and could be used anytime after the wait time was up. I'd like to see them go back to the FP+ system so I can select 3 rides a day in advance as a resort guest but perhaps offer Genie+ if I want to buy more LL access same day or any LL access for guests staying offsite

 

[DonMacGregor]

I mean.....Disneyland whole point was an escape for families and tickets cost and arm and a leg.
Along younger people having wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy less wealth then generations before them
Also many being like one is against the rules....so even if rules are unjust its fine because its the rules.

Growing up in Anaheim in the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s (and a CM in high school and college), a trip to Disneyland was absolutely always limited by income. I knew plenty of kids growing up who’s family could never afford to go to Disneyland and their first visit, even while living 5 minutes away, was on a school trip as a band member or on greatly reduced ticket packages (so you some had families where the kids had actually been to Disneyland, but not the parents or grandparents). For some of us, it was a 2 or 3 times a year deal (or more). There was always great disparity.

Even back in the ticket book days, from Day 1 if you wanted to enjoy more rides, or go on the better rides more often, you had to pay more/buy more tickets. Even ticket books (introduced in October of 1955) presented a hierarchy of ride value. If you wanted to go on more of the big rides (represented first as "C" then "D", then ultimately "E") then the standard ticket book allowed, you had to buy more tickets. More affluent families always had plenty of "A" and "B" tickets left in the books (we'd just throw them away eventually). Those with less, seemed to use every ticket on every trip. There has always been socio-economic disparity amongst Disneyland guests.

I mean, take a good long hard look at the demographic represented during all of the opening day footage, and that will tell you plenty (and I’m an upper middle class white guy)…

 

[DonMacGregor]

I haven’t heard any parents of kids with developmental disabilities that wouldn’t give documentation. In many social posts right now I hear the cry of “but HIPAA” (usually HIPPA!) from those with apparently questionable disabilities.

The thing that strikes me as odd are the number of people who want access to DAS due to condition XYZ who then claim “it’s very expensive to get a doctor to diagnose XYZ” or “it can take months to get an appointment to see a doctor to get documentation of XYZ” or the really odd one “there are only 10 doctors in the entire US who are familiar with XYZ”.

Setting aside any and all questions regarding XYZ itself, wouldn’t someone requesting DAS for that condition have ALREADY been diagnosed with XYZ, and have at least some documentation to that end? Sure, you may not have a note that specifically reads “Don has XYZ. Signed, Doctor Bob”, but there has to be SOME amount of documentation regarding their condition, especially if it is a rare and complicated one. Are you not seeing your doctor/specialist regularly for management of the chronic condition? Annual checkups at the bare minimum?

I’ve been fortunate to have been blessed with relatively good health, with no chronic conditions, but I do have documentation from every visit to every doctor I’ve seen over the past 10 years, all available online.

I won’t even comment on the “I’m pretty sure I have/also have” cohort

 

[DontSpamMe]

I don't know the numbers but genie plus has taken a massive toll on our park enjoyment. I'm sure it's a combo of over selling genie plus and this new information of DAS abuse. I had no idea the lightning lanes were also used for DAS. All I know is I never saw a fast pass line extend as far as these so called "lightning" lanes do.

But, hearing there is wide spread of abuse of the DAS is not a surprise to me. I remember when we started going I was informed of people who will go with you and allow you to skip the lines with their DAS for a fee.

If this new process reduces the abuse, I am all for it. I figure if you have a true disability that prevents you from waiting in lines you'll do what you need to.

 

[miksicnarf]

DAS abuse outrage is justified because DAS scammers are lying, cheating and stealing. G+ users are simply buying a higher grade product, just as happens in every aspect of life. There will always be people with better houses, cars, clothes, vacations, food etc. because they have more money. No sense being resentful. I have an Imagine MK and I don't spend the Summer feeling outraged that people with Inspire MK are in the parks!