Could 60 Minutes documents on Bush be faked?
- Thread starter Laz
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I guess that means you DO NOT sign your memos to yourself. Funny when the liberals cry vast right wing conspiracy, we have to take it seriously.
When there is proof of the liberal tendencies of our 'main stream' media, and conservatives point it out, we're all nuts.
So, do you sign the memos your right to yourself?
And yes, the th conspiracy line in my original post *WAS* a joke, although now I am really wondering!
we3luvdisney
<font color=blue>I admit it. I am a <font color=pu
- Joined
- Aug 15, 2000
Typical, ignore the point about Kerry's (DNC) and Rather's use of foegeries trying to destroy Bush, with a counter charge. Simply put, when over 200 live verterans can point out Hanoi John's actions, it a lot more convincing, that typing a memo in a dead man's name.
I have no doubt Kerry is a war criminal (as he admits in his own words), for the actions he did in his 4 months in Vietnam, and I have no doubt that the CBS documents are frauds.
I expect that Kerry will loose the election, because you can't fool all the people all the time, but Rather will weather this storm.
quote:
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Originally posted by ThAnswr
I don't give a crap what you asked. That's the way I answered it. When you become board moderator, then you can complain about how I answer a question.
Btw, if you don't like how I answer a post, you can either crawl back in the spider hole you came out of or put me on your ignore list.
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Orignan reply by dmadman43
Spoken like a true Kerry supporter. "Don't criticize me!"
__________________
Actually, IMHO spoken more like Theresa Heinz Kerry !
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Originally posted by ThAnswr
I don't give a crap what you asked. That's the way I answered it. When you become board moderator, then you can complain about how I answer a question.
Btw, if you don't like how I answer a post, you can either crawl back in the spider hole you came out of or put me on your ignore list.
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Orignan reply by dmadman43
Spoken like a true Kerry supporter. "Don't criticize me!"
__________________
Actually, IMHO spoken more like Theresa Heinz Kerry !
WillyJ
<font color=purple>NyQuil Aficionado<br><font colo
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2000
Well see Dmadman, when you read an opinion, it is helpful to read all of it.
Although the subject of this issue is connected to service in one of the branches of our military, my opinon, or the "point" I'm making isn't about who "served" better or saying that "service" is a requirement for being President.
My "point" is about honesty- about holding elected officials accountable and being able to trust that they will tell us the truth. . . it's about whether or not money, political power, and priviledge got George W. a pass on Vietnam while the kids of the working class and poor had to send theirs off to fight and die . . .and about how now he's sending a new generation off to fight and die in an unwinnable war in Iraq and dressing up like "Top Gun" for a photo op when he took advantage of the system to get out of seeing combat when he could have. . . and it's about whether or not he's been lying about it since for political gain. .
See I think the evidence shows that he did lie; and some of the other nice people here think that the evidence shows a news guy named Dan Rather lied. . . so we "disagree" with each other which is why were "picking apart" each other's "opinions" at 2:30 in the morning. . well that and because we have no "life". .
I know for "special" people like you it can get very confusing, especially when the opinion is presented over several pages and different posts, but you just hang in there . . you are doing very good and just hang in there and keep asking questions- it's the only way you're going to learn stuff. .
Tee-
Well lets see. . You're right that he was still a congressman when George W. was admitted to the Guard in '68. . but although a Freshman, he did serve on the influential House Ways and Means Committee- the only Freshmen Rep. to get that powerful position in a Congress dominated by Dems. . and his father Prescott Bush had been a pretty powerful Senator. . .
And yeah, now that you mention it, he did go against his constituents wishes and vote for the 1968 Civil Rights Act. . as a matter of fact, it was even more incongruous considering that in 1964 he ran against a Democrat named Ralph Yarbourough for Yarbourough's Senate seat and one of Bush's campaign tactics was to call him an "extremist" and a "left wing demagogue" because Yarbourough had voted for the 1964 Civil rights Act..
So let's see now. . George H.W. runs in '64; is against the Civil Rights Act; and loses. . he then gets elected to Congress in '66 running as a moderate conservative anti-civil rights candidate and (ironically) after he sued to force the creation of a new district and won in his case in The Supreme Court. .
Barnes had worked for/with Lyndon Johnson, who was President then. .
In the Spring of 1968 Johnson knew Vietnam was poisoning his presidency and he was looking to add his domestic legacy by expanding his 1964 Civil Rights Act. The vote was going to be close and he needed some moderate Republicans to counter the "Dixie-crats" in his own party. .
April of 1968. . Congress passes The Fair Housing Act as part of the Civil Rights Act and Republican Congressman George Bush votes for it. .
May of 1968.. Bush's son George W. is admitted into the ARG. . possibly with the help of Johnson cronie and then Lt. Governor Barnes. . .
Hmmmm. . interesting. .
LOL We3!
Although the subject of this issue is connected to service in one of the branches of our military, my opinon, or the "point" I'm making isn't about who "served" better or saying that "service" is a requirement for being President.
My "point" is about honesty- about holding elected officials accountable and being able to trust that they will tell us the truth. . . it's about whether or not money, political power, and priviledge got George W. a pass on Vietnam while the kids of the working class and poor had to send theirs off to fight and die . . .and about how now he's sending a new generation off to fight and die in an unwinnable war in Iraq and dressing up like "Top Gun" for a photo op when he took advantage of the system to get out of seeing combat when he could have. . . and it's about whether or not he's been lying about it since for political gain. .
See I think the evidence shows that he did lie; and some of the other nice people here think that the evidence shows a news guy named Dan Rather lied. . . so we "disagree" with each other which is why were "picking apart" each other's "opinions" at 2:30 in the morning. . well that and because we have no "life". .
I know for "special" people like you it can get very confusing, especially when the opinion is presented over several pages and different posts, but you just hang in there . . you are doing very good and just hang in there and keep asking questions- it's the only way you're going to learn stuff. .
Tee-
Well lets see. . You're right that he was still a congressman when George W. was admitted to the Guard in '68. . but although a Freshman, he did serve on the influential House Ways and Means Committee- the only Freshmen Rep. to get that powerful position in a Congress dominated by Dems. . and his father Prescott Bush had been a pretty powerful Senator. . .
And yeah, now that you mention it, he did go against his constituents wishes and vote for the 1968 Civil Rights Act. . as a matter of fact, it was even more incongruous considering that in 1964 he ran against a Democrat named Ralph Yarbourough for Yarbourough's Senate seat and one of Bush's campaign tactics was to call him an "extremist" and a "left wing demagogue" because Yarbourough had voted for the 1964 Civil rights Act..
So let's see now. . George H.W. runs in '64; is against the Civil Rights Act; and loses. . he then gets elected to Congress in '66 running as a moderate conservative anti-civil rights candidate and (ironically) after he sued to force the creation of a new district and won in his case in The Supreme Court. .
Barnes had worked for/with Lyndon Johnson, who was President then. .
In the Spring of 1968 Johnson knew Vietnam was poisoning his presidency and he was looking to add his domestic legacy by expanding his 1964 Civil Rights Act. The vote was going to be close and he needed some moderate Republicans to counter the "Dixie-crats" in his own party. .
April of 1968. . Congress passes The Fair Housing Act as part of the Civil Rights Act and Republican Congressman George Bush votes for it. .
May of 1968.. Bush's son George W. is admitted into the ARG. . possibly with the help of Johnson cronie and then Lt. Governor Barnes. . .
Hmmmm. . interesting. .
LOL We3!
WillyJ
<font color=purple>NyQuil Aficionado<br><font colo
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2000
Perhaps if your reading comprehension skills were more on an adult level you would have understood she addressed the point of the "so-called-proof" and showed it to be no proof at all.
And the reason she brought up the "Swift Boat Vets" was to show the hypocrisy of many of the Pro-Bush people who defended their right to smear Kerry no matter how suspicious or nonexistent the evidence was but now that the shoe's on the other foot.. . well, now it's. .
. . .from the Bushies. .
Oh and tell me "gentlemen". . there have been quite a few Iraqi children killed since the invasion and occupation. . do you both plan on calling some soldier who's over there now putting his or her life on the line a "baby killer" some time in the future if they happen to go against your candidate?
Just wondering. .
Originally posted by WillyJ
Perhaps if your reading comprehension skills were more on an adult level you would have understood she addressed the point of the "so-called-proof" and showed it to be no proof at all.
And the reason she brought up the "Swift Boat Vets" was to show the hypocrisy of many of the Pro-Bush people who defended their right to smear Kerry no matter how suspicious or nonexistent the evidence was but now that the shoe's on the other foot.. . well, now it's. .
. . .from the Bushies. .
Oh and tell me "gentlemen". . there have been quite a few Iraqi children killed since the invasion and occupation. . do you both plan on calling some soldier who's over there now putting his or her life on the line a "baby killer" some time in the future if they happen to go against your candidate?
Just wondering. .
Ouch! The truth, liberals can't handle the truth....here's more evidence of that. And to think I tested so well in reading comprehension...... Oh I'll take the Liberal approach and sue someone since they 'system' let me down.
I never called Kerry a baby killer, I called him a war criminal, a term Hanoi John used himself upon his return.
250 live veterans versus 1 dead man's forged document, and even you can't admit the difference.
And how dare you call me a gentleman, don't you ever do that again! Now redneck, you can call me redneck any ole time.
Serious question, that no one has answered yet. What happens after the election, no new posts and threads, or do we just keep going on?
BTW where did you get my baby picture?
Sorry if I got a little hot last night in my posts. That is why I tend to avoid these things. I do apoligize if I offended anyone.
Several points and then I will let this tread alone since it seems to be getting very nasty.
I did not nor do I mean to diminish someone's service in the National Guard. If it came accross that way I apologize. Back in the late 60's and early 70's I knew some people that approached the NG that way (as a way of avoiding Nam). I think many did but it certainly cannot be a blanket statement. I think today the NG and AR is totally totally different by the way.
I think Bush's service in the NG is a legit item to review. Just as Kerry's service is and also Kerry's anti-war actions are. However, I hope we could move past the past and see what either will do for our nation today. I am more concerned with a Prescription plan today than the past. That is just me but I think many think as I do.
My main point in entering this thread was first off I found it just interesting as a mystery of showing them to be false. Then also that if these documents are shown to be conterfeits then that is Slime ball politics at its worse. Its Nixon's dirty trick politics that so many old Democrats (like myself) were disgusted with. If it disgusted us then why cant more democrats today come out and say its disgusting now? Why cant those that support Kerry on this board, keep their strong support for Kerry but simply say if these documents are false its dirty politics and wrong.
To be clear if the documents are false I do not beleive the DNC or the Kerry campaing had anything to do with them. More than likely its a group like moveon.org or another group.
Several points and then I will let this tread alone since it seems to be getting very nasty.
I did not nor do I mean to diminish someone's service in the National Guard. If it came accross that way I apologize. Back in the late 60's and early 70's I knew some people that approached the NG that way (as a way of avoiding Nam). I think many did but it certainly cannot be a blanket statement. I think today the NG and AR is totally totally different by the way.
I think Bush's service in the NG is a legit item to review. Just as Kerry's service is and also Kerry's anti-war actions are. However, I hope we could move past the past and see what either will do for our nation today. I am more concerned with a Prescription plan today than the past. That is just me but I think many think as I do.
My main point in entering this thread was first off I found it just interesting as a mystery of showing them to be false. Then also that if these documents are shown to be conterfeits then that is Slime ball politics at its worse. Its Nixon's dirty trick politics that so many old Democrats (like myself) were disgusted with. If it disgusted us then why cant more democrats today come out and say its disgusting now? Why cant those that support Kerry on this board, keep their strong support for Kerry but simply say if these documents are false its dirty politics and wrong.
To be clear if the documents are false I do not beleive the DNC or the Kerry campaing had anything to do with them. More than likely its a group like moveon.org or another group.
WillyJ
<font color=purple>NyQuil Aficionado<br><font colo
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2000
1) Oh, we'll have to have a few follow-up battles. . and several recriminatons. . and a couple "I told you so's". . and the occational "rubbing it in" post. . but by Thanksgiing things should be calmed down again and we can go back to fighting about Disney stuff until the mid-term elections. .
2) Dmadman43 sold it to me for $10 and some illegal Canadian Sudafed. .
Seriously, darn good comeback post! I withdraw the "reading comp" remark.. .
Elwood Blues
"We're going to take things away from you on behal
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2004
Nice work.
WillyJ
<font color=purple>NyQuil Aficionado<br><font colo
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2000
Pejorative Having negative connotations; especially tending to disparage or belittle. . . Late Latin "pejoratus". . past participle of pejorare to make or become worse, from Latin pejor- worse.[/i]
Unless Kerry has referred to himself as a "baby killer" in the past then you are taking the desciption of a horrific situation those guys were put in and using the most negative terms possible to decribe something that unfortunately happens in any war. .
As I said, you won't hear me complain about you doing so; but I certainly won't hesitate to point out the instances of it and other similar terms used against Dems when the inevitable "I don't appreciate the name calling against the President!" posts pop up again. . and until I see the same people expressing similar outrage over anti-Kerry remarks that are below the belt then I'll assume it's just a tactic to stop criticism of Bush while the cheap shots at Kerry continue. .
Carla,
Dan Rather can be an idiot; but because I seriously doubt he printed the memos in his basement in a lame attempt to "get" George Bush then I have to conclude that if they are phony then someone went through a lot of trouble to convince someone at CBS they were real. .
Why? Well certainly to hurt Bush is an obvious assumption. . but since if they are proven to be fakes it actually creates sympathy for W. and make Rather look terrible then who's to say it wasn't someone from a rival network trying to ruin his career? Or even someone inside CBS who holds a major grudge against him?
There's also the possibility someone from the Bush campaign set this up then tipped off a few bloggers on what to look for to show they are fakes. . would probably end Rather's career and hlep Bush and hurt Kerry in the long run. .
And it could just as possibly be someone from Kerry's campaign who tried a major "dirty trick" . .
I'm not saying it is or isn't any of these things or that it couldn't be something else. . I'm just saying theories, opinons and guesses no matter how intriguing or well thought-out aren't proof of anything,..
What would I consider proof? Well, blog rumors aside CBS has steadfastly stuck to their assertion they checked the momeos out and they are legit. but last night they also claimed that there are (other) documents from Bush's files that have the same exact deal with the "th" thing and font used in them. . I didn't see them provide any proof of that and if they can't then I'd tend to think they're lying.
If it was irresponsible and reckless journalism by Rather or some staffer and they're trying to cover it up, then it'll come out. . in a big organization like that there's always someone willing to talk. . and you can bet Rather will "out" the source before taking the fall by himself, so if they are fake and he finds out we will too. .
But as long as CBS sicks to it's story and no "smoking gun" appears then all there is is perceptions and opinions- you can say your absolutely convinced they're fakes or you can say your absolutely convinced they're real but right now there's no way to know anything for sure. . .
Heck, it could have been Larry King- I've never trusted him anyway!
Unless Kerry has referred to himself as a "baby killer" in the past then you are taking the desciption of a horrific situation those guys were put in and using the most negative terms possible to decribe something that unfortunately happens in any war. .
As I said, you won't hear me complain about you doing so; but I certainly won't hesitate to point out the instances of it and other similar terms used against Dems when the inevitable "I don't appreciate the name calling against the President!" posts pop up again. . and until I see the same people expressing similar outrage over anti-Kerry remarks that are below the belt then I'll assume it's just a tactic to stop criticism of Bush while the cheap shots at Kerry continue. .
Carla,
Dan Rather can be an idiot; but because I seriously doubt he printed the memos in his basement in a lame attempt to "get" George Bush then I have to conclude that if they are phony then someone went through a lot of trouble to convince someone at CBS they were real. .
Why? Well certainly to hurt Bush is an obvious assumption. . but since if they are proven to be fakes it actually creates sympathy for W. and make Rather look terrible then who's to say it wasn't someone from a rival network trying to ruin his career? Or even someone inside CBS who holds a major grudge against him?
There's also the possibility someone from the Bush campaign set this up then tipped off a few bloggers on what to look for to show they are fakes. . would probably end Rather's career and hlep Bush and hurt Kerry in the long run. .
And it could just as possibly be someone from Kerry's campaign who tried a major "dirty trick" . .
I'm not saying it is or isn't any of these things or that it couldn't be something else. . I'm just saying theories, opinons and guesses no matter how intriguing or well thought-out aren't proof of anything,..
What would I consider proof? Well, blog rumors aside CBS has steadfastly stuck to their assertion they checked the momeos out and they are legit. but last night they also claimed that there are (other) documents from Bush's files that have the same exact deal with the "th" thing and font used in them. . I didn't see them provide any proof of that and if they can't then I'd tend to think they're lying.
If it was irresponsible and reckless journalism by Rather or some staffer and they're trying to cover it up, then it'll come out. . in a big organization like that there's always someone willing to talk. . and you can bet Rather will "out" the source before taking the fall by himself, so if they are fake and he finds out we will too. .
But as long as CBS sicks to it's story and no "smoking gun" appears then all there is is perceptions and opinions- you can say your absolutely convinced they're fakes or you can say your absolutely convinced they're real but right now there's no way to know anything for sure. . .
Heck, it could have been Larry King- I've never trusted him anyway!
Teejay32
<font color=green>Wanders off too much<br>
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2000
...and Yale (for one) is full of such well-connected people...and they're rich...and they may have political aspirations...it means nothing. Two of those people are running for President, but only one is assumed to have used his connections for his own personal gain. Much ink and air time and money is used in getting people to reflect on that very thing, which pertains to his character. The other guy is supposedly blameless. Ok, whatever.
It's really about their service records. One flies jets stateside, one pilots Swift boats in Vietnam. I don't see a whole lot of difference in terms of personal risk. I think a lot of energy has been spent trying to get people to believe there's a huge difference, but so far I'm impervious to it, and having the issue brought up all the time in the press seems like a campaign all by itself. That is the matter of interest.
Originally posted by WillyJ
1) Oh, we'll have to have a few follow-up battles. . and several recriminatons. . and a couple "I told you so's". . and the occational "rubbing it in" post. . but by Thanksgiing things should be calmed down again and we can go back to fighting about Disney stuff until the mid-term elections. .
2) Dmadman43 sold it to me for $10 and some illegal Canadian Sudafed. .
Seriously, darn good comeback post! I withdraw the "reading comp" remark.. .
Back at you!
P.S. I think you over paid for the photo!
Originally posted by WillyJ
Well see Dmadman, when you read an opinion, it is helpful to read all of it.
Although the subject of this issue is connected to service in one of the branches of our military, my opinon, or the "point" I'm making isn't about who "served" better or saying that "service" is a requirement for being President.
My "point" is about honesty- about holding elected officials accountable and being able to trust that they will tell us the truth. . . it's about whether or not money, political power, and priviledge got George W. a pass on Vietnam while the kids of the working class and poor had to send theirs off to fight and die . . .and about how now he's sending a new generation off to fight and die in an unwinnable war in Iraq and dressing up like "Top Gun" for a photo op when he took advantage of the system to get out of seeing combat when he could have. . . and it's about whether or not he's been lying about it since for political gain. .
See I think the evidence shows that he did lie; and some of the other nice people here think that the evidence shows a news guy named Dan Rather lied. . . so we "disagree" with each other which is why were "picking apart" each other's "opinions" at 2:30 in the morning. . well that and because we have no "life". .
I know for "special" people like you it can get very confusing, especially when the opinion is presented over several pages and different posts, but you just hang in there . . you are doing very good and just hang in there and keep asking questions- it's the only way you're going to learn stuff. .
Very well then, was Kerry lying when he said he was in Cambodia on Christmas? Was Kerry lying when he said he committed atrocities? Did Kerry lie about qualifying for Purple Hearts and Silver Stars?
I'll ignore the condescension so typical of the compassionate liberals.
jenfur
DIS Veteran
- Joined
- May 3, 2000
http://www.wbap.com/listingsentryheadline.asp?ID=239369&PT=wbaptopstories
Excerpt of Call:
BARNES: I love my father very much, but he's doing this for purely political reasons. He is a big Kerry fund-raiser and he is writing a book also. And [the Bush story] is what he's leading the book off with. ... He denied this to me in 2000 that he did get Bush out [of Vietnam service]. Now he's saying he did.
CROWLEY: Did he tell you, Amy and I'm glad I have you on the line with me did your father tell you that he was prepared to do this on behalf of John Kerry go after President Bush like this?
BARNES: He told me he was going to do it. In fact, I talked to him a couple of months ago. He told me he was writing the book. He told me that he was going to be talking about this. And he knows that I we have very diverse political opinions. He knows my opinions and we get into this debate every time I see him. But, you know, he said that he was going to be talking about it.
CROWLEY: Now you're saying, Amy, that he has had two separate stories on President Bush's Guard duty during the Vietnam era?
BARNES: Yes, yes. This came out in 2000 and I asked him then, at the time, if he [helped get Bush into the Guard]. He said: "No, absolutely not. I did not do that." -
CROWLEY: So, I hate to put you in this position, but I will ask you, do you think your father, Ben Barnes who was on "60 Minutes II" with Dan Rather last night do you believe that he lied on the air to the American people last night about President Bush?
BARNES; Yes, I do. I absolutely do. And I think he's doing he's doing it for purely political, opportunistic reasons trying to get John Kerry elected and trying to make Bush look like the bad person. ... Like I said, he's going to be trying to promote his book that he's got coming out.
© 2004 WBAP all rights reserved. The Associated Press contributed to this report.
I am not going to argue that the memos are faked, it seems that the majority of the media believe they are fake and time will tell, so I am not going to waste my time on it.
Excerpt of Call:
BARNES: I love my father very much, but he's doing this for purely political reasons. He is a big Kerry fund-raiser and he is writing a book also. And [the Bush story] is what he's leading the book off with. ... He denied this to me in 2000 that he did get Bush out [of Vietnam service]. Now he's saying he did.
CROWLEY: Did he tell you, Amy and I'm glad I have you on the line with me did your father tell you that he was prepared to do this on behalf of John Kerry go after President Bush like this?
BARNES: He told me he was going to do it. In fact, I talked to him a couple of months ago. He told me he was writing the book. He told me that he was going to be talking about this. And he knows that I we have very diverse political opinions. He knows my opinions and we get into this debate every time I see him. But, you know, he said that he was going to be talking about it.
CROWLEY: Now you're saying, Amy, that he has had two separate stories on President Bush's Guard duty during the Vietnam era?
BARNES: Yes, yes. This came out in 2000 and I asked him then, at the time, if he [helped get Bush into the Guard]. He said: "No, absolutely not. I did not do that." -
CROWLEY: So, I hate to put you in this position, but I will ask you, do you think your father, Ben Barnes who was on "60 Minutes II" with Dan Rather last night do you believe that he lied on the air to the American people last night about President Bush?
BARNES; Yes, I do. I absolutely do. And I think he's doing he's doing it for purely political, opportunistic reasons trying to get John Kerry elected and trying to make Bush look like the bad person. ... Like I said, he's going to be trying to promote his book that he's got coming out.
© 2004 WBAP all rights reserved. The Associated Press contributed to this report.
I am not going to argue that the memos are faked, it seems that the majority of the media believe they are fake and time will tell, so I am not going to waste my time on it.
C
charlie,nj
Guest
Can any of the people who believe that the 60 minutes documents are real...break this $200 for me...thanks...
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