Could 60 Minutes documents on Bush be faked?

[Teejay32]

Originally posted by ToriLammy
You are correct the unsigned memo proves nothing which is what most have been saying all along.

LMAO!

 

[bsnyder]

Willy, in one of the 2003 threads you linked to you stated:

Will this be the beginning of a wave of democracy in the Arab countries and stabilization that will reduce the terrorism that has up to now thrived in that part of the world?

Or will this end up as an endless, bloody civil war between the 3 main factions in Iraq (Kurds, Shi'ites, Sunnis) who have deep, historic, and religious differences that will be dealt with through violence instead of democracy and lead to further anti-American feelings in the Arab world, and breed more terrorism, not less?


You know something? It's impossible to know at this time, and more then likely it will be years before there is anyway to look back and make any kind of educated evaluation as to whether this was the right thing to do or if it was a mistake.

The bold emphasis is mine. What happened to the idea of waiting for years before an educated evaluation can be made? Did you really mean 18 months?

 

[disney4us2002]

I really get that you want desperately for these to be authentic but it just isn't going to turn out that way. Try to be rational here. The man left service, retired, and 17 mos later people are being pressured still? It isn't this one piece that is 'proof'; it is all of the questionable pieces that add up to only one logical conclusion. None of this brings you pause?? Really? It's only a matter of time before the next step is to find out the source of these forgeries.

You are right about one thing in your post however; it will be the same result. Bush in 2000 and Bush in 2004.

 

[Geoff_M]

Willy,

Here you go. Take a break from trying to deflect the thread away from the faked memos...Here's an easy $17.6K for you! All you have to do is:

We're looking for a typewriter that could do all of the following:

1) Use a proportionally spaced font with advanced kerning and proportional spacing identical to Microsoft Word

2) Have a left-curled apostrophe key

3) Have the ability to superscript not just in position, but also a decrease in font size from 12pt to 7-8pt

4) Have sentence breaking identical to Microsoft Word default rules

5) Have 13pt vertical spacing identical to Microsoft Word defaults

6) Have the ability to center text on the page identical to Microsoft Word defaults

Come on! This should be like taking candy from a baby! Just start Googling!

 

[WillyJ]

I said the article proves nothing. . until or unless the memo is discredited it's a piece of a larger puzzle that shows Bush recieved special treatment because of his name and his father's political conections and refuses to acknowledge it.


I don't live in "Limbaugh-Land" so I'm sure this is a rhetorical question, but..

Do you people really find it so impossible to believe that a young man who was the son of a former Congressman, Ambassador to the United Nations and chairman of the Republican National Committee and the grandson of a former US Senator would get a break based on his familie's poltiical influence??


It happened all the time. . . and if Bush had just acknowledged it or even if he said he didn't know whether his family name played a part in getting the coveted Gaurd slot or not; it wouldn't be an issue. . .


But Bush is a guy who's patholigical and lies when the truth would serve him better. . .

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by currycook
dmadman says to me """"Nice to denegrate all those that served in the National Guard, even those that were sent to Vietnam. I'm sure they will appreciate your support. Second, given the standard you have set, can one surmise that you did (or would have) vote for GWH Bush in '92 and Dole in '96?

If it was a hiding place to get out of Nam then why did a unit from Ohio go? Why did Bush volunteer for an NG unit that would be possibly sent to Vietnam but was denied because of lack of sufficient flight hours?""""



How old are you? Do you remember those times? I do. Some guard units did go. Ok. But I personally know friends that went into the guard and Army reserve hoping that they got out of Nam. And who did you serve with? I did 3 years in the US ARMY with the 1st AD. Who did you serve your country with?

As to whom I voted for in 92 or 96 it shouldnt matter in this discussion.

And just so you know I may be one of the few people that voted for both McGovern and Reagan. So give me break and stop the far right wing platform here on this thread.

First, thank you for your service to our country. So now in order to have a credible voice, EVERYONE must have served in the military? The voting dicussion is relevant because it seems the standard on the left now (which is really quite ironic) is that Presidents must have had military service.

I personally know people who served in the Guard because they wanted to serve in the Guard. I guess we are at an impasse then.

At let's not get all rightous here. Let's not forget that Kerry applied for and was denied and deferment because he wanted to study in Paris (what a surprise!!!!). So, he enlisted in the Navy and volunteer for Swift Boat Duty because at the time this unit was a far away from combat as a unit could possibly be. So, seems someone else wanted to "hide out" too. He was pissed when he learned the Swift Boats were being reassigned to combat duty. And before you attribute this to a "far right wing platform", Kerry documents this in his diaries.

I'm really having a problem understanding the "my military service can beat up your military service" point. Care to elaborate on what you are trying to say here?

 

[dmadman43]

Do you people really find it so impossible to believe that a young man who was the son of a former Congressman, Ambassador to the United Nations and chairman of the Republican National Committee and the grandson of a former US Senator would get a break based on his familie's poltiical influence??

you mean the same types of breaks Algore and John Kerry got? How do you think Algore got assigned a cush job as a reporter in Hanoi?

 

[disney4us2002]

Originally posted by Elwood Blues
I missed the show. How did he lie?

Bush said he didn't ask for any favors to get in the ANG and he said he family didn't make calls on his behalf either. (I am paraphrasing as I don't keep these quotes in a word document or anything, lol). Barnes said he singled out several men as favors but he didn't say it was at either Bush's or his family's request. Barnes official statement per CBS' transcript, "Sid Adger (PH), a friend of the Bush family, came to see me and asked me if I would recommend George W. Bush for the Air National Guard. And I did.

And I talked to a Gen. Rose, who was the commander of the Air National Guard. I don't know whether my recommendation was the absolute reason he got in the Guard. He was a Congressman's son. He graduated from Yale. He was a person that would have been eligible."

Soooo.... did Bush ask for favors? No. Did his family? No. Did he know or send this family friend to ask for him? Maybe, maybe not. Is that lying?

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by Geoff_M
Willy,

Here you go. Take a break from trying to deflect the thread away from the faked memos...Here's an easy $17.6K for you! All you have to do is:

We're looking for a typewriter that could do all of the following:

1) Use a proportionally spaced font with advanced kerning and proportional spacing identical to Microsoft Word

2) Have a left-curled apostrophe key

3) Have the ability to superscript not just in position, but also a decrease in font size from 12pt to 7-8pt

4) Have sentence breaking identical to Microsoft Word default rules

5) Have 13pt vertical spacing identical to Microsoft Word defaults

6) Have the ability to center text on the page identical to Microsoft Word defaults

Come on! This should be like taking candy from a baby! Just start Googling!

Almost! But not quite...

http://shapeofdays.typepad.com/the_shape_of_days/2004/09/the_ibm_selectr.html

 

[Geoff_M]

Do you people really find it so impossible to believe that a young man who was the son of a former Congressman, Ambassador to the United Nations and chairman of the Republican National Committee and the grandson of a former US Senator would get a break based on his familie's poltiical influence??

It happened all the time. . . and if Bush had just acknowledged it or even if he said he didn't know whether his family name played a part in getting the coveted Gaurd slot or not; it wouldn't be an issue. . .

Perhaps, but I don't live in "MoveOn.org-land". So it's going to take a lot more than a partisan member of Kerry's campaign and a major fund raiser who suddenly develops a conscience and decides to "set the story straight" as his guy falls behind in the polls and some faked memos to make the case. I stand by my statement that both major party candidates used "the system" to their advantage for personal preservation during the war.

The bottom line is that CBS and The Boston Globe are trodding on well worn territory with regard to Bush and the ANG at a time when people are signalling that they are "sick" of hearing about who did what during the Vietnam war in the wake of the Swift Boat ads and resulting media exposure on the subject. Two weeks into the onslaught and per the polls it ain't having much effect.

 

[Teejay32]

Originally posted by WillyJ
Do you people really find it so impossible to believe that a young man who was the son of a former Congressman, Ambassador to the United Nations and chairman of the Republican National Committee and the grandson of a former US Senator would get a break based on his familie's poltiical influence??

Can you understand that it's not a given that he got special treatment or that anything dishonorable took place. It's up to you (a general "you") to make that case - it's not up to others to successfully disprove it to your satisfaction.

And what exactly is Rather offering here, anyway. Unnamed source, questionable memos, questionable timing, part of a three-pronged assault already described by the Boston Globe...authenticated by phone and with vague assurances that there is supporting evidence.

Rather may consider himself an unimpeachable source of info, but the rest of the world doesn't.

 

[Geoff_M]

Almost! But not quite...

Yep, and I think that was Dan's last best hope. However, I doubt even the Pentagon would cough up $4K for an clerical typewriter in 1972!

 

[WillyJ]

If you'd get off the Linthead sites for a minute or two Geoff you might notice the expert who examined the documents said he is concerned about "exactly what is being examined by some of the people questioning the documents, because deterioration occurs each time a document is reproduced. And the documents being analyzed outside of CBS have been photocopied, faxed, scanned and downloaded, and are far removed from the documents CBS started with. "

So unless whatever Bush worshiper came up with those criteria had an original copy, they are worthless. . .



D.madman. . Ivoted for Perot both times. . I voted for Reagan in 1980 (1st year I was eligible) because I don't believe in abortion and than realized it was a fund raising tool and not a "value" for the GOP, so I've voted 3rd Party ever since.

I registered as a Dem this winter to vote for Howard Dean but by the time the primaries were held here Dean was finished, so I voted for Kuchinich because if I was going to cast a symbolic vote anyway I decided to cast it for the one person running who actually stood up and had the guts to vote against the Iraqi invasion when it was a very unpopular thing to do.

And for the record I have in the past referred to Clinton as a "war criminal" and "The Hillbilly Caligula"- and if Kerry is elected and if he keeps us mired in the Iraq nightmare then I will be here hitting him just as hard as I'm hitting Bush now. . .

And hey, thanks for asking!



Disney4us. . one last time.. in the memo Killian never says he saw or heard Staudt say or do anything. . in the 1st reference he's assuming so and in the next he bases it on what "Harris" tells him. . and look at the title: CYA

If they turn out to be fakes then how does that hurt me? I'm no fan of Rather and no one slams the major media more then I do. . and unless it's proven that someone in Kerry's campaign produced the memos and tricked CBS into using them and it causes Bush to be reelected then it might.. but that's highly unlikely. You're the one who needs them to be fakes to protect your boy King. .

And if you actually bothered to read what I've posted you will see what I'm saying is that all this "proof" posted here supposedly "proving" the documents are fakes adds up to nothing. . just like the article you cited.


Bet,

Well, that was back when I tried to be civil and diplomatic when dealing with you people but I learned the hard way what that gets a person. . you'll notice I don't bother any more.

No surprise you took part of one post out of all I wrote that was dead-on accurate there. . . and it doesn't change the facts that you and many others here said there were WMDs in Iraq when I said there wasn't, and I was right.

You and many others said there was a connection between Saddam and 9/11 and I said there wasn't, and I was right.

You and many others said we would seen as liberators and I said more then likely we wouldn't, and I was right.

You and many others said Bush was only going to remove and disarm Saddam and then let the Iraqi people set up any kind of government they want and I said that was nonsense and I was right.

Not sure what you were trying to prove by picking out part of a long post. . . that you refuse to look at anything in an objective way and admit you're wrong when you have been has already been well established. . .



Well it's been a fun evening kids. . if any of you actually come across real evidence that proves the memos are fake or that Barnes was lying when he said he pulled strings to get Bush in the Guard, let me know. . unlike many of you, if I see proof of something I have no problem acknowledging it.

Good night now!

 

[bsnyder]

Originally posted by WillyJ

Bet,

Well, that was back when I tried to be civil and diplomatic when dealing with you people but I learned the hard way what that gets a person. . you'll notice I don't bother any more.

You people?

If I've ever been anything but civil and diplomatic to you, I'd sure like to know when.

 

[Geoff_M]

If you'd get off the Linthead sites for a minute or two Geoff you might notice the expert who examined the documents said he is concerned about "exactly what is being examined by some of the people questioning the documents, because deterioration occurs each time a document is reproduced. And the documents being analyzed outside of CBS have been photocopied, faxed, scanned and downloaded, and are far removed from the documents CBS started with. "

Like they say in court; "Asked and answered!" The next time around, CBS really needs to get a document expert instead of a handwriting expert. The condition of the document (and everyone seems to be downloading it directly from the CBS site) doesn't have any impact on several of the most damning clues about the document: word wrapping, centering, vertical spacing, and tab stops.

 

[disney4us2002]

quote

....if any of you actually come across real evidence that proves the memos are fake ....



What Willy would be classified by you as real evidence? If CBS claims they were wrong? If Dan Rather makes a retraction and apologizes? Is there really any evidence you will accept? Just want to be sure I know what to look for.

I personally wish I could duplicate the memos on a '72 typewriter. I could spend that money very well!! The next best thing would be for DR to have to eat crow!

BTW, I don't need them to be fake because I'm quite confident that this election is in the bag whether this issue is resolved before Nov 2nd or not.

 

[bsnyder]

From ABC's website:

HODGES SAID HE WAS MISLED BY CBS: Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian's supervisor at the Grd, tells ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were "handwritten" and after CBS read him excerpts he said, "well if he wrote them that's what he felt."


Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70's and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been "computer generated" and are a "fraud".

 

[WillyJ]

Gosh Bet, I guess you'd have to go all the way to lower part of that same page you copied part of my post from to see one example. . . you know, that part where you (ironically) took a statement of mine out of contrext and called it" offensive and disgusting" and "beneath me"?

Pershaps you see that as "Civil and diplomatic" but I don't. . . of course you or anyone else can post anyway you like as far as I'm concerned; I can debate civilly or get down in the gutter equally well depending on what I feel the situation calls for. .


No hard feelings on my part. . politics is a dirty game and everyone here is playing to win and I have no problem with that. . but when people throw perjorative terms like "baby killer" around and refer to a triple amputee that put his life on the line for our country as a "professional victim" then I don't feel obligated to be any more civil then I need to be to stay within th guidellines if I don't feel like it. . .



Again Geoff, you have no proof of anything- You're certainly entitiled to look at the situation and form an opinion. . . but as they say in court, opinon is not proof. .

 

[dmadman43]

D.madman. . Ivoted for Perot both times. . I voted for Reagan in 1980 (1st year I was eligible) because I don't believe in abortion and than realized it was a fund raising tool and not a "value" for the GOP, so I've voted 3rd Party ever since.

I registered as a Dem this winter to vote for Howard Dean but by the time the primaries were held here Dean was finished, so I voted for Kuchinich because if I was going to cast a symbolic vote anyway I decided to cast it for the one person running who actually stood up and had the guts to vote against the Iraqi invasion when it was a very unpopular thing to do.

And for the record I have in the past referred to Clinton as a "war criminal" and "The Hillbilly Caligula"- and if Kerry is elected and if he keeps us mired in the Iraq nightmare then I will be here hitting him just as hard as I'm hitting Bush now. .

That strange. Why would you support Dean? He didn't "serve". He got a medical deferrment in '71, then immediately went skiing.

Kuchinich didn't "serve" either.

So, why are you making service an issue?

 

[Teejay32]

I wandered off into reading the Ben Barnes transcript, and it's funny (in a demented sort of way), there's really no incriminating evidence there either. He says he thinks he made a call to the Guard, but under no duress, just to be helpful, and he can't say for sure whether he got Bush in or not.

Bush I was a freshman Congressman, one of the few elected Republicans in Texas...became very unpopular after he voted for the Civil Rights Bill, which was about a month before W entered the Guard. Bush I later gave up his Congress seat to run for the Senate and was beaten by Lloyd Bentsen. Then Nixon gave him a job at the UN. Not a real powerhouse.

I'm ok with writing off the whole National Guard thing as a DNC smokescreen. A permanent, exceptionally noisy one.