Could 60 Minutes documents on Bush be faked?

[Geoff_M]

So just how many of you who are suspicous of this memo were just as suspicous in regard to the Swift Boat Vets' ad?

Personally, I don't mind people challenging the assertions of the Swifties. Some of their claims were challenged and shown to be shaky, while others have been accepted and caused the Kerry camp to alter their tune about a couple of things. However, the Swifties never claimed to be unbiased. They've had an axe to grind with Kerry for some time now.

My eagerness on this topic has very little to do with politics. I don't think that the DNC or the Kerry camp had a direct role in the matter. Nor do I think that Bush is in political hot water over the CBS reporting. As has been stated, I think people have made up their minds about Bush and his time in the ANG... one way or the other. Personally, I think it's safe to say that both Bush and Kerry used "the system" and played the odds at times to their personal advantage (i.e. attempts at deferments, ANG vs. regular military, volunteering for the Navy vs. risking being drafted into the infantry, etc.). I don't doubt that Kerry saved the guy blown overboard, nor do I doubt that Bush sufficiently fulfilled his time in the ANG to the statisfaction of those that discharged him. I also agree with Bush that Kerry's service was more nobel than his own due to the fact that Kerry subjected himself to hostile fire.

My beef on this matter is with CBS. The double standard that they, and other "old media" outlets display is appalling to me. To turn the tables. If the memo had been waved by the Swifties as partial "proof" of Kerry's supposed actions in Vietnam, do you think that CBS would have been so eager to air it and not give it a more detailed vetting? Do you think that 60 Minutes would have featured as their star witness to charges against Kerry a person that had raised over a 1/2 a million dollars for the Bush/Cheney campaign and was also a member of that campaign? Can you imagine Ra^ther taking this mild approach about the partisan nature of the head of the Swifties:

DAN RATHER:
You're a Democrat. Lifelong Democrat. You're a supporter of John Kerry. Fair to say that you're in Sen. Kerry's inner circle?

BEN BARNES:
I don't know that I'm in his inner circle. I know I'm a supporter of Sen. Kerry. And I've supported him from the very first.

DAN RATHER:
You know that there are people who seeing this are going to say, "Well, Ben Barnes came forward now because he wants to help Sen. Kerry's campaign." How do you answer that?

BEN BARNES:
Well, I've been helping Sen. Kerry's campaign from the first day announced. And when I started being quoted on the Internet, and being quoted other places, some as I said, correctly, or-- and other times, incorrectly, I just thought it was time for me to once and for all, there was just too much speculation. There are too many people that are putting words in my mouth.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/09/08/60II/main642067.shtml

A question or two later Barnes makes this statement and Ra^th accepts it and moves on: "I did not come here to play havoc with Gov. Bush, with President Bush's presidential campaign. I did not come here to do anything personal against President Bush." I can't imagine Ra^ther letting that pass with a suspected GOP operative.

So when I sense CBS has screwed up big time on something like these memos and I think their slip is showing... I'm gonna pounce.

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by ThAnswr
Are you pulling my leg or have you really gone crazy? What the hell is happening to this country? Have we all gone nuts?

Enough of the frigging fonts and spaces and th's and periods and commas. Jesus Christ, get a grip.

You're the one that said it wasn't unusual to for one to type memos to themselves as you do it all the time. It appears snarfer was just asking for clarification. Can we conclude your answer is "no", you don't sign memos to yourself?

 

[bsnyder]

I agree 100% with Geoff. My beef is with CBS and Dan Rather. The double standard here is just grotesque.

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by ThAnswr
I don't give a crap what you asked. That's the way I answered it. When you become board moderator, then you can complain about how I answer a question.

Btw, if you don't like how I answer a post, you can either crawl back in the spider hole you came out of or put me on your ignore list.

Spoken like a true Kerry supporter. "Don't criticize me!"

 

[dmadman43]

Also, apparently, CBS used the same handwriting expert who said the Vince Foster suicide note was real. Things that make you go...hmmmmmmm.

 

[Teejay32]

...a spider hole?

Was there a problem with the suicide note?

 

[ToriLammy]

Originally posted by Island_Lauri
I am curious - how many of you that are double-checking all the superscript "th"s and the spacing and fonts in this memo, questioned the accuracy of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ad?

All the documents proving that Kerry served his country and earned his medals were in the official records but all the talking heads on TV openly speculated whether Kerry's wounds were self-inflicted for weeks on end. In Bush's case, no one has come forward to even claim that they remember Bush fulfilling his duty while stationed in Alabama and the official records that would prove it don't exist for some reason. Now there appear these documents from the "60 minutes" report and immediately the response is that they must be forgery and it can not be true.

So just how many of you who are suspicous of this memo were just as suspicous in regard to the Swift Boat Vets' ad?

I have never questioned anything about Kerry's service, his records or the like. I don't really care about what the SBV have to say, it's not something that would sway me one way or the other. Neither is this mess.

The thing that bugs me about the "Memos" is where have they been for the last 4 years? Why now? Why show memos that belong to a dead man who can't speak out about whether they are actually his or not? Where did they come from if neither his wife or son have seen them before? Who had access to a dead man's personal files? Why hasn't CBS said where they got the memos if they are so sure they are real?

From my experience of having been in the military those memos cause me to ask more questions about them (the memos) rather than Bush's service. They really didn't say anything that hasn't been said before - we all knew he was suspended from flying because he never took the required physical. The deal about his commander being pressured - well it's an unsigned memo that says a guy who had been retired for a year was "pressuring" - how is that possible? What possible consequences could Killian or Harris have suffered from a retired general/colonel???? The again unsigned memo about his phone conversation with Lt Bush - not normal procedure - any kind of documentation like that would have been acknowledged by having Lt Bush sign the memo after a formal counseling session.

The thing is that most folks who voted for Bush in 2000 knew is Guard career was less than stellar - they accepted that it was almost 30 years ago and accept that people can change. Heck, most of us are a lot different than we were in our early 20s. We've matured, our outlook has changed, we're more responsible - if we can do it why can't Bush? It's one of the reasons I've paid little attention to what the SBV have said about Kerry...what I have paid attention to is what he is saying today and how he has voted as a Senator, that I can't accept Military Bill of Rights - please....

 

[Paradise]

As someone else said:

"Okay, so George Bush got help from the Lt. Governor getting into the Guard. Big deal! Really, by 1968 anyone who could've done this would've.

HOWEVER - and this is a BIG however - he then failed to meet his obligations to perform that duty for a specific period and apparently a Superior Officer who tried to discipline him was "stymied" from doing so (this of course all according to Boston Globe and 60 Minutes). I think what we had here was a spoiled rotten, privileged brat who knew exactly what he could get away with and did! Again, while I don't find the way he got into the Guard all that bad, I do think that the failure to get down on his knees, thank the Good Lord and all the Lucky Stars and then DO HIS DUTY is despicable! It appears we now have a Commander in Chief who willfully disobeyed orders on several occasions. We also appear to have a Commander in Chief who showed disrespect to all the men (and women) who did fulfill their Guard Duty - and frankly to those who are fulfilling it right now."

Couldn't have said it any better.
***********************************

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we.
They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country
and our people, and neither do we."
GW Bush, President by appointment 2001-2004.

The Washington NeoClowns can't even get their clown
shoes on right, and there is no wrong way to do that.

 

[Geoff_M]

Here's the CV of the document expert featured on CBS: Link

It seems his area of expertise is pretty limited to handwriting and signatures, and not printed documents. His claims to fame include during the handwriting analysis on Vince Foster and Kurt Cobin's suicide notes. Lets assume for the sake of argument that the sigs are legit, what about the rest of the document?

CBS's claim is that they contents of the documents are known to be true, so they must be legit. So I guess this newly unearthed Killian memo must also be the real thing:

 

[WillyJ]

Not that facts mean much to most Pro-Duhbya people, but. .





Some Freeper-type working for the same people who bankrolled the "Swift Boat Bufoons" makes the claim the typeface on these memos is New Times Roman was not available in the 1970s. . .but the owner of the company that distributes this typing style told CBS News that it has been available since 1931.

And the IBM selectric typewriter, introduced in 1961 and in common use on the 70s, had available symbol type balls for technical writing with superscripts. Daisy Wheel spinwriters also had optional type wheels with special symbols.


So all that was a big bunch of nothing. . .



Someone claims that not expert has come forward to confirm the memos are real. . . Yet Marcel Matley, a document and handwriting expert. . .
(info) . . analyzed the documents and says he believes they are real. And he is concerned about "exactly what is being examined by some of the people questioning the documents, because deterioration occurs each time a document is reproduced. And the documents being analyzed outside of CBS have been photocopied, faxed, scanned and downloaded, and are far removed from the documents CBS started with. "

Matley did an interview with "60 Minutes" prior to Wednesday's broadcast. He looked at the documents and the signatures of Col. Killian, comparing known documents with the colonel's signature on the newly discovered ones.

"We look basically at what's called significant or insignificant features to determine whether it's the same person or not," Matley said. "I have no problem identifying them. I would say based on our available handwriting evidence, yes, this is the same person."

Matley finds the signatures to be some of the most compelling evidence.

Reached Friday by satellite, Matley said, "Since it is represented that some of them are definitely his, then we can conclude they are his signatures."

CBS has strongly stated that Drudge's report of an "internal investigation" is a lie and they stand by the report 100%. .. CBS Story


So, 10-pages of guesses and "Tin-foil Hat" conspiracy theories and hysterical rants against the "Evil liberal media" and what do we have?

Documents and memos that show George Bush was a liar and whose authenticity has yet to be factually challenged in the least. . .


Nice try though! Hope you all do a better job with the Kitty Kelley book!

 

[disney4us2002]

As I noted in my post on page 2 of this post, the general who is stated as trying to put pressure against negative reports regarding Bush retired 17 months before the memo was written.

http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/news/special_packages/election2004/9633814.htm "Man named in Bush memo left Guard before document was written."

The fallout from presenting forgeries as truth will be huge. I can see why the tempers here are beginning to flare.

 

[WillyJ]

Who's temper is flaring?

Certainly not mine. . in fact, this is all a re-run for me. .


Thread from March, 2003, Thread #2 from March.2003


Same people, same hysterical indignation and sarcasm, same phony outrage.. and it'll be the same result- wrong then; wrong now.

 

[Geoff_M]

Willy,

Go back a read the last couple of pages of the thread...

So which model Selectric from the 1972 era, or earlier, contains the combination of font, proportional spacing, and superscripting as seen in the CBS memos? So far no ones been able to answer that one. There's a $10.5K prize for the person that can come up with an answer. You can't tell me the CBS staff hasn't been on overtime in the last 24 hours trying to come up with the answer to that one!

Matley's primary expertise is handwriting and signatures. If the memos weren't typed, then his opinion might care a little more weight. He also is a crowd of one on this opinion. Document experts from such vast-right-wing outlets such as the AP, NBC, ABC, and CNN all uniformly say they are almost certainly were typed on a computer... and one that was mostly likely running Word.

Who's temper is flaring?

Not mine. I've been having fun all day and night with this one! I love it when stuff like this happens.

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by WillyJ
Not that facts mean much to most Pro-Duhbya people, but. .





Some Freeper-type working for the same people who bankrolled the "Swift Boat Bufoons" makes the claim the typeface on these memos is New Times Roman was not available in the 1970s. . .but the owner of the company that distributes this typing style told CBS News that it has been available since 1931.

And the IBM selectric typewriter, introduced in 1961 and in common use on the 70s, had available symbol type balls for technical writing with superscripts. Daisy Wheel spinwriters also had optional type wheels with special symbols.


So all that was a big bunch of nothing. . .



Someone claims that not expert has come forward to confirm the memos are real. . . Yet Marcel Matley, a document and handwriting expert. . .
(info) . . analyzed the documents and says he believes they are real. And he is concerned about "exactly what is being examined by some of the people questioning the documents, because deterioration occurs each time a document is reproduced. And the documents being analyzed outside of CBS have been photocopied, faxed, scanned and downloaded, and are far removed from the documents CBS started with. "

Matley did an interview with "60 Minutes" prior to Wednesday's broadcast. He looked at the documents and the signatures of Col. Killian, comparing known documents with the colonel's signature on the newly discovered ones.

"We look basically at what's called significant or insignificant features to determine whether it's the same person or not," Matley said. "I have no problem identifying them. I would say based on our available handwriting evidence, yes, this is the same person."

Matley finds the signatures to be some of the most compelling evidence.

Reached Friday by satellite, Matley said, "Since it is represented that some of them are definitely his, then we can conclude they are his signatures."

CBS has strongly stated that Drudge's report of an "internal investigation" is a lie and they stand by the report 100%. .. CBS Story


So, 10-pages of guesses and "Tin-foil Hat" conspiracy theories and hysterical rants against the "Evil liberal media" and what do we have?

Documents and memos that show George Bush was a liar and whose authenticity has yet to be factually challenged in the least. . .


Nice try though! Hope you all do a better job with the Kitty Kelley book!

How do you respond to the fact that Killan's family says he never typed at all?

BTW, WillyJ, who did you vote for in '92 and '96? The candidate with military experience or the candidate without?

 

[Elwood Blues]

Originally posted by LoraJ


I love how all this talk distracts everyone from the real story on 60 minutes that night. How Bush LIED about how he got into the National Guard.


.

I missed the show. How did he lie?

 

[currycook]

dmadman says to me """"Nice to denegrate all those that served in the National Guard, even those that were sent to Vietnam. I'm sure they will appreciate your support. Second, given the standard you have set, can one surmise that you did (or would have) vote for GWH Bush in '92 and Dole in '96?

If it was a hiding place to get out of Nam then why did a unit from Ohio go? Why did Bush volunteer for an NG unit that would be possibly sent to Vietnam but was denied because of lack of sufficient flight hours?""""



How old are you? Do you remember those times? I do. Some guard units did go. Ok. But I personally know friends that went into the guard and Army reserve hoping that they got out of Nam. And who did you serve with? I did 3 years in the US ARMY with the 1st AD. Who did you serve your country with?

As to whom I voted for in 92 or 96 it shouldnt matter in this discussion.

And just so you know I may be one of the few people that voted for both McGovern and Reagan. So give me break and stop the far right wing platform here on this thread.

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by Teejay32
...a spider hole?

Was there a problem with the suicide note?

At the risk of forking the thread, it's the old, unfounded argument of whether Foster committed suicide or not.

 

[WillyJ]

Here's the entire text from the memo the article you cite is talking about Disney4us:

18 August 1973

Memo to File SUBJECT: CYA

1. Staudt has obviously presured Hodges more about Bush.
I'm having trouble running interference and doing my job- Harris gave me a message today from Grp regarding
Bush's OETR and Staudt is pushing to sugar coat it. Bush wasn't here during rating period and I don't have any feedback from 187th in Alabama. I wil not rate. Austin is
not happy today either.

2. Harris took the call from Grp today, I'll backdate but .won't rate. Harris agrees.


"Staudt has obviously presured Hodges more . . ."

"Harris gave me a message today. . "


Sounds to me like Killian is guessing or was told by Harris that Staudt was ionvolved. . never once says Staudt was there or that he himself saw Staudt presure anyone. .


The article proves nothing. . sorry.

 

[WillyJ]

That the National Guard was used as a dodge for Vietnam is byond question. . for those of us who live in a reality-based world anyway. .


Just more Limbaugh/O'Rielly tactics for people who realize they don't have a factual argument to stand behind. . don't let it get to you Currycook. .


Elwood,

They showed clips of Bush stating he had absolutely no help getting into the Guard- that he applied and a couple spots opened up and he got lucky.

Bush also makes the same claim in his "autobiography" A Charge To Keep

That many priviledged young men in Bush's postion took the same route he did is understood ,and that's not what the issue is- the issue is that he lied about it and continues to lie about it to this day.

 

[ToriLammy]

Originally posted by WillyJ
Here's the entire text from the memo the article you cite is talking about Disney4us:

18 August 1973

Memo to File SUBJECT: CYA

1. Staudt has obviously presured Hodges more about Bush.
I'm having trouble running interference and doing my job- Harris gave me a message today from Grp regarding
Bush's OETR and Staudt is pushing to sugar coat it. Bush wasn't here during rating period and I don't have any feedback from 187th in Alabama. I wil not rate. Austin is
not happy today either.

2. Harris took the call from Grp today, I'll backdate but .won't rate. Harris agrees.


"Staudt has obviously presured Hodges more . . ."

"Harris gave me a message today. . "


Sounds to me like Killian is guessing or was told by Harris that Staudt was ionvolved. . never once says Staudt was there or that he himself saw Staudt presure anyone. .


The article proves nothing. . sorry.

You are correct the unsigned memo proves nothing which is what most have been saying all along.