Could 60 Minutes documents on Bush be faked?

[Island_Lauri]

I am curious - how many of you that are double-checking all the superscript "th"s and the spacing and fonts in this memo, questioned the accuracy of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ad?

All the documents proving that Kerry served his country and earned his medals were in the official records but all the talking heads on TV openly speculated whether Kerry's wounds were self-inflicted for weeks on end. In Bush's case, no one has come forward to even claim that they remember Bush fulfilling his duty while stationed in Alabama and the official records that would prove it don't exist for some reason. Now there appear these documents from the "60 minutes" report and immediately the response is that they must be forgery and it can not be true.

So just how many of you who are suspicous of this memo were just as suspicous in regard to the Swift Boat Vets' ad?

 

[faithinkarma]

Interesting that you should mention that no one has come forward. There has long been a $10,000 reward offered for anyone who would do just that. No one has ever tried to claim that money. Now there is to be another reward of $50,000. offered.

 

[LMC]

There has been one person that has come forward from Alabama that remembers Bush. He was on Hannity and Colmes a few nights ago. Bush had to sign in at this persons office each day he reported for duty. This person remembers him being there in the time questioned because of other things that Bush was doing during that time frame. I would have to think that if Bush did not sign in on his assigned dates (as with anyone) they would have been put on "report" or something to that effect at that time. The person that has come forward with this info (I personally know) never had to file such paper work for "no show" or AWOL.

As I continue to read posts and hear newscasts, all I can think is..... are were there yet???? November 2, 2004!

 

[WillyJ]

Speaking of the "Swift Boat Swine". . .


Gosh it sure pains me to pour the cold water of reality over this little Re-thug-lican orgy of self-congratulations and self-righteous anger. . but once again the only ones engaging in deception and dirty politics are Duh-bya and his Merry Band of Mayberry Machiavellians.. .


From Salon.com-

Swift Boat flacks attack CBS
As the controversy over Bush's military record builds, a right-wing firm that works for the RNC pitches in.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Eric Boehlert

Sept. 10, 2004 | "Upset by renewed attention to President Bush's disputed service in the Texas Air National Guard, White House communications director Dan Bartlett insists the new revelations about how strings were pulled to get Bush into the Guard, as well as to get him out, are part of "a coordinated attack by John Kerry and his surrogates on the president." There is no evidence to support that claim. But there is clear evidence confirming that the same conservative operatives who have been busily promoting the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth smears of Kerry are now engaged in pushing the story that CBS's "60 Minutes Weeknight Edition" aired forged documents in its Wednesday night report on Bush and the National Guard.

Creative Response Concepts, the Arlington, Va., Republican public relations firm run by former Pat Buchanan communications director Greg Mueller, with help from former Pat Robertson communications director Mike Russell, sent out a media advisory Thursday to hawk a right-wing news dispatch: "60 Minutes' Documents on Bush Might Be Fake." Creative Response Concepts has played a crucial role in hyping the inaccurate, secondhand Swift Boat allegations, with Russell serving as the group's official spokesman. A company spokesman could not be reached for comment.


Throughout the Swift Boat smear campaign, the veterans involved asserted they had no political agenda and were unaffiliated with any political party. But Creative Response Concepts, which was obviously paid some undisclosed amount for its Swift Boat work, has many links to the Republican Party and the conservative movement. Among its clients are the Republican National Committee, National Republican Congressional Committee and National Republican Senatorial Committee. Its client list also includes the Christian Coalition, National Taxpayers Union, Media Research Council and Regnery Publishing. Regnery is the firm that published "Unfit for Command," the SBVT screed against Kerry's military record.

Now Creative Response is working the case against CBS's "60 Minutes" report on Bush's questionable service in the Texas Air National Guard. The program included the first-ever interview with former Texas Lt. Gov. Ben Barnes on how he secured preferential treatment for the young George Bush in entering the Texas Air National Guard to avoid service in Vietnam. It also featured never-before-seen personal memos written by one of Bush's immediate commanders at the time, Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who expressed concern and frustration over Bush's refusal to obey a direct order and fulfill his military commitment.

Bartlett attacked Barnes as politically motivated, but did not challenge the veracity of his account. Conservative operatives immediately alleged that Killian's memos were forged, posting their charges on the Internet while the CBS broadcast was still in progress. They claim that the memos were faked using modern word-processing equipment, and were not produced with typewriters common from the Vietnam era.

By Thursday, the online Drudge Report and the Weekly Standard were also trumpeting the accusations. And Creative Response Concepts sent out a press release to major news organizations stating that the "documents on Bush might be fake."

In the release, Creative Response promoted a Web site called Cybercast News Service, one of several groups directed by Brent Bozell, a longtime right-wing activist who has devoted years to attacking the "liberal bias" of the mainstream press. His Media Research Center and other similar efforts have been heavily funded by conservative billionaire Richard Mellon Scaife.

The CNS News.com story, echoed by other conservative outlets, helped sparked a debate over proportional spacing, fonts, electric typewriters and superscripts as independent typographical experts weighed in with their own doubts. Some experts contacted by the Washington Post, New York Times and Salon suggested that the raised, or superscripted, "th" in one of Killian's memos was a telltale sign that the documents were created well after 1972. Yet independent researcher Marty Heldt notes that he had received an undisputed Bush military document in 2000 from the Vietnam era that clearly contains a superscripted "th." He also notes that when Killian's Aug. 14, 1973, memo is enlarged and the word "interference" is examined, it's clear the two middle e's rest higher on the page than the other two e's; that is not something a modern-day word processor would likely do.

CBS, for its part, stands by its story, saying its "report was not based solely on recovered documents, but rather on a preponderance of evidence, including documents that were provided by unimpeachable sources, interviews with former Texas National Guard officials and individuals who worked closely back in the early 1970s with Colonel Jerry Killian and were well acquainted with his procedures, his character and his thinking ... Contrary to some rumors, no internal investigation is underway at CBS News nor is one planned." CBS News vice president Betsy West said, "We are continuing to pursue the story and will report tonight on the "'CBS Evening News.'"

As for the memos in which Killian complained about the pressure he was getting from his superiors to "sugarcoat" Bush's spotty service record, Killian's superior told CBS producers that Killian had made similar contemporaneous statements to him in the early 1970s, according to the Washington Post. . . "




Full Story- but yo have to view short ad if you're not a member to access. . .


So, sorry. . but no big investigative coup by any Roght-wing blogs. . . just another organized smear job by Karl and his Boy George. .


By the way, found this story by reading Buzz Flash.Com . . hooray for honest blogs!!

 

[MikeB63]

The Swift Boat Vets would not even have been on TV if it weren't for the internet. No one has come out to investigate what their claims are or if they're true until recently. I see one veteran saying one thing and 250+ vets saying another. Why should I discount the 250+ over the one? All I want to see out of that subject is an honest review. John Kerry could probably erase any doubt by signing the form-180 as Bush has which allows the release of all documents. Why doesn't it bother you that he hasn't after all this media attention? It leads me to believe he has something to hide in those files. As for the questioning of the CBS report and documents, they have been commented on by the leading forensic experts in the country who have expressed doubt in their authenticity. After this, why shouldn't we question them? To date, I haven't seen the same level of scrutiny over the Swift Boat claims.

 

[LoraJ]

Wasn't it the Boston Globe that had these documents and they had them since 2000? And CBS just reported on the what the Globe had? Or did they both get the same info.

I love how all this talk distracts everyone from the real story on 60 minutes that night. How Bush LIED about how he got into the National Guard.


And just what records of Kerry's are missing? It is my understanding that they are all released minus the medical records which Bush hasn't released either.

 

[Teejay32]

Originally posted by Island_Lauri
So just how many of you who are suspicous of this memo were just as suspicous in regard to the Swift Boat Vets' ad?

I wasn't, because I knew long ago there would be some kind of veterans' backlash against Kerry because of his VVAW activities. A no-brainer. I read the SBVT initial statement and they were just voicing their collective opinion about him being President. Some people on both sides tried to make a federal case out of it and made it worse, imo.

A better background story here is how the media viewed the 16 words in the SOTU about uranium, after forgeries were revealed. Any charges having to do with uranium in Africa from then on were completely discredited and added to the Lie list. (And much debate ensued.)

In other words, relax - it's not all about Kerry today.

 

[faithinkarma]

How many times does it have to be said? Kerry has released all but his medical records, and those have been viewed by reporters. And Bush has not released his medical records either. Can we finally move along from this particular piece of misinformation?

 

[MikeB63]

The only problem with your premise is that ABC, NBC and most other major news outlets are investigating this also, not just the so-called "right-wing blogs". As for the organization Creative Response Concepts and their funding, why should they be chastised when others such as MoveOn.org and the like are not? Are the SVBT only allowed to have one agenda at a time?
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Creative Response Concepts has played a crucial role in hyping the inaccurate, secondhand Swift Boat allegations, with Russell serving as the group's official spokesman. A company spokesman could not be reached for comment.
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As I said in my last post, no one has come out with a definitive investigation to say that these allegations are inaccurate. Again, why is one decorated vets statement more believable than 250+ other decorated vets? But then again, we digress from the original topic of the "forged" documents. Just like Macauliffe (sp?) and the Dems to come out and blame Rove and the RNC when they get egg on their face. What else could it be but a right wing conspiracy?

 

[faithinkarma]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
How many times does it have to be said? Kerry has released all but his medical records, and those have been viewed by reporters. And Bush has not released his medical records either. Can we finally move along from this particular piece of misinformation?

Took me a few minutes to find the links to prove what I said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0%2...11675,00.html

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/04/22/W...es_milita.shtml

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/americas/3645753.stm
http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john...ry_records.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselectio...1201140,00.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/te...military22.html

 

[MikeB63]

By signing the form-180 all documents including personal memos such as the ones in question in this thread, would be released. Bush did sign this form and this is why any and all information, with the possible exception of the medical records, available is being released. Bush has signed it, Kerry has not.

Edit: Most of the links you posted expired. the two that didn't relate to Kerry's website which only shows the selected records that have been released, not all of them.

 

[currycook]

I know my fellow democrats dont want to admit this, but if the documents are false then it does not speak to me that much about Bush and his war record or better his lack of war record or his no war record or his hiding from war record. But to me as someone older it smells of the dirty tricks of Nixon. If they are false someone has set up CBS. That is why CBS is in the CMA mold. Someone has gone beyond the already dirty line in politics. I'm old enough to have fought to have Nixon impeached for such dirty tricks and I dont think its right now either. So for who ever said did they check the "th" in the swift boat stuff, I am sure someone did. With the internet age you cant hide this sort of stuff. You dont have to get caught anymore breaking into the watergate apartments. However, that should not be the question. The question is two fold. What did Bush do - that is a legit question. Nail him on that and ask him why did he serve in the National guard instead of the US Army. (Which I also did and didnt get out of). To me why, why did he even serve in the guard instead of the army. Everyone as old as I am knows the guard was a hiding place to get out of Nam. However, these questions need to be asked in an open and honest way. Not this way. Not the Nixon way of dirty tricks. If these are false doc's then that question will never be heard and all anyone will remember is dirty tricks from the kerry camp.

 

[WillyJ]

Bush has never signed a Form-180






From the article "Kerry camp denies hiding war records"


". . . At the White House, press secretary Scott McClellan said he couldn't say specifically whether Mr. Bush signed Standard Form 180, but the president did request and release his own military records in February.
"I don't believe he signed any form, but he did authorize making his military records available publicly," Mr. McClellan said. "We have released all the records, and reporters were allowed to look at his medical records as well." . . "

 

[faithinkarma]

form 180 is to release medical documents, and Bush has not signed it either.

 

[dmadman43]

Originally posted by currycook
I know my fellow democrats dont want to admit this, but if the documents are false then it does not speak to me that much about Bush and his war record or better his lack of war record or his no war record or his hiding from war record. But to me as someone older it smells of the dirty tricks of Nixon. If they are false someone has set up CBS. That is why CBS is in the CMA mold. Someone has gone beyond the already dirty line in politics. I'm old enough to have fought to have Nixon impeached for such dirty tricks and I dont think its right now either. So for who ever said did they check the "th" in the swift boat stuff, I am sure someone did. With the internet age you cant hide this sort of stuff. You dont have to get caught anymore breaking into the watergate apartments. However, that should not be the question. The question is two fold. What did Bush do - that is a legit question. Nail him on that and ask him why did he serve in the National guard instead of the US Army. (Which I also did and didnt get out of). To me why, why did he even serve in the guard instead of the army. Everyone as old as I am knows the guard was a hiding place to get out of Nam. However, these questions need to be asked in an open and honest way. Not this way. Not the Nixon way of dirty tricks. If these are false doc's then that question will never be heard and all anyone will remember is dirty tricks from the kerry camp.

Nice to denegrate all those that served in the National Guard, even those that were sent to Vietnam. I'm sure they will appreciate your support. Second, given the standard you have set, can one surmise that you did (or would have) vote for GWH Bush in '92 and Dole in '96?

If it was a hiding place to get out of Nam then why did a unit from Ohio go? Why did Bush volunteer for an NG unit that would be possibly sent to Vietnam but was denied because of lack of sufficient flight hours?

 

[dmadman43]

I am curious - how many of you that are double-checking all the superscript "th"s and the spacing and fonts in this memo, questioned the accuracy of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth ad?

The ads were forgeries? Gosh!!! I had no idea.

 

[DawnCt1]

Originally posted by Island_Lauri
.

So just how many of you who are suspicous of this memo were just as suspicous in regard to the Swift Boat Vets' ad?

You have a memo, supposedly written by someone whose wife said that it was inconsistant with her deceased spouse's views and writing style, and is questioned even by other news outlets,compared to 250 war heros who have relayed personal experiences with the senator. There is no comparison.

 

[dmadman43]

but a smaller segment believe that both the DNC and the Kerry campaign were duped by Karl Rove, who would have engineered the flap to embarrass the opposition.

Well, how could this be? I thought Bush and everyone on his staff were idiots? You mean these morons were possibly able to dupe the Kerry campaign? How embarrasing would that be? Moreover, if Kerry can be duped by obvious forgeries, think how easily France, Germany, or even Al-Queda could dupe him should he reach the White House. Does anyone want a man so easily duped as a President?

 

[WillyJ]

Bush's National Guard File Missing Records


WASHINGTON (AP) - Documents that should have been written to explain gaps in President Bush's Texas Air National Guard service are missing from the military records released about his service in 1972 and 1973, according to regulations and outside experts.

For example, Air National Guard regulations at the time required commanders to write an investigative report for the Air Force when Bush missed his annual medical exam in 1972. The regulations also required commanders to confirm in writing that Bush received counseling after missing five months of drills.

No such records have been made public and the government told The Associated Press in response to a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit that it has released all records it can find.

Challenging the government's declaration that no more documents exist, the AP identified five categories of records that should have been generated after Bush skipped his pilot's physical and missed five months of training. . .

"Each of these actions by any member of the National Guard should have generated the creation of many documents that have yet to be produced," AP lawyer David Schulz wrote the Justice Department Aug. 26. . ."

"The AP talked to experts unaffiliated with either campaign who have reviewed Bush's files for missing documents. They said it was not unusual for guard commanders to ignore deficiencies by junior officers such as Bush. But they said missing a physical exam, which caused him to be grounded, was not common.

"It's sort of like a code of honor that you didn't go DNF (duty not including flying)," said retired Air Force Col. Leonard Walls, who flew 181 combat missions over Vietnam. "There was a lot of pride in keeping combat-ready status."

Records of Bush's service have significant gaps, starting in 1972. Bush has said he left Texas that year to work on the unsuccessful Senate campaign in Alabama of family friend Winton Blount.

The five kinds of missing files are:

_A report from the Texas Air National Guard to Bush's local draft board certifying that Bush remained in good standing. The government has released copies of those DD Form 44 documents for Bush for 1971 and earlier years but not for 1972 or 1973. Records from Bush's draft board in Houston do not show his draft status changed after he joined the guard in 1968. The AP obtained the draft board records Aug. 27 under the Freedom of Information Act.

_Records of a required investigation into why Bush lost flight status. When Bush skipped his 1972 physical, regulations required his Texas commanders to "direct an investigation as to why the individual failed to accomplish the medical examination," according to the Air Force manual at the time. An investigative report was supposed to be forwarded "with the command recommendation" to Air Force officials "for final determination."

Bush's spokesmen have said he skipped the exam because he knew he would be doing desk duty in Alabama. But Bush was required to take the physical by the end of July 1972, more than a month before he won final approval to train in Alabama.

_A written acknowledgment from Bush that he had received the orders grounding him. His Texas commanders were ordered to have Bush sign such a document; but none has been released.

_Reports of formal counseling sessions Bush was required to have after missing more than three training sessions. Bush missed at least five months' worth of National Guard training in 1972. No documents have surfaced indicating Bush was counseled or had written authorization to skip that training or make it up later. Commanders did have broad discretion to allow guardsmen to make up for missed training sessions, said Weaver and Lawrence Korb, Pentagon personnel chief during the Reagan administration from 1981 to 1985.

"If you missed it, you could make it up," said Korb, who now works for the Center for American Progress, which supports Kerry.

_A signed statement from Bush acknowledging he could be called to active duty if he did not promptly transfer to another guard unit after leaving Texas. The statement was required as part of a Vietnam-era crackdown on no-show guardsmen. Bush was approved in September 1972 to train with the Alabama unit, more than four months after he left Texas.. ."

Full Story

 

[Mamu]

Probably! TV reporters has becomes unscrupulous in reporting scandalous rumors. It's all about ratings and who can report the story first. Whether they are documented or not. Tired of all these half-truth, slanderous new's reports.

I think I'm voting for Donald Duck