Corporate Disney has lost the vision

[RivShore]

What happens is that an existing business will buy the portion of the company that enhances what they already have. A few examples would be Netflix would buy Disney +, Carnival Cruise Lines would buy Disney Cruise Line, Comcast the owner of Universal parks would buy Disney Parks. Etc.

Haven't thought about the split up in a while but that's a good point. Just spinning off the streaming properties into a publicly traded independent company would be a home run. It would have Netflix like multiples instantly. Would probably trade at close to what the entire company trades at today.

 

[zavandor]

I'd love to see them arrive "undercover boss" style to the various parks with 2 young children and a spouse and experience what guests see. It would be a game changer for sure!

And make them wake up every morning at 7.

 

[RivShore]

I didn't expect Chapek to respond to my post.

But it's true, everyone on here focuses on the negative side of the ledger while ignoring the other side of the ledger - the $20+ billion it has put into theme parks and cruise ships over the last few years. No 5th gate but there have been a whole lot added/updates to WDW in just the last few years.

Here's an article from a while back that covered all the expansions and one of the reasons for constant price increases:

Each of Disney’s six theme park resorts around the world is undergoing major expansion, along with Disney Cruise Line. Michael Nathanson, a longtime media analyst, estimates that Disney will spend $24 billion on new attractions, hotels and ships over the next five years. That’s more than Disney paid for Pixar, Marvel and Lucasfilm combined.

Disney faces an enviable challenge: Even with steady price increases for peak periods — single-day peak tickets at Disneyland in California now run $135 — visitor interest often exceeds capacity at some properties.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...a/disney-invests-billions-in-theme-parks.html

 

[monstermash23]

But it's true, everyone on here focuses on the negative side of the ledger while ignoring the other side of the ledger - the $20+ billion it has put into theme parks and cruise ships over the last few years. No 5th gate but there have been a whole lot added/updates to WDW in just the last few years.

Here's an article from a while back that covered all the expansions and one of the reasons for constant price increases:

Each of Disney’s six theme park resorts around the world is undergoing major expansion, along with Disney Cruise Line. Michael Nathanson, a longtime media analyst, estimates that Disney will spend $24 billion on new attractions, hotels and ships over the next five years. That’s more than Disney paid for Pixar, Marvel and Lucasfilm combined.

Disney faces an enviable challenge: Even with steady price increases for peak periods — single-day peak tickets at Disneyland in California now run $135 — visitor interest often exceeds capacity at some properties.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...a/disney-invests-billions-in-theme-parks.html

I don’t think anyone’s ignoring it, just because they aren’t mentioning it. But these types of improvements are expected, especially to justify the continued rising park ticket prices. This is their bread and butter after all. If Disney decided to let go of their parks and NOT continously keep improving their bread and butter by investing money into it, we’d be having a far more disastrous conversation then we are now, where Disney is concerned.

This, to me, is all about the extras, the brand and the balance between being guest centric and being economically focused, without drawing examples to any one particular thing. I do think Disney is on a more economically driven trajectory, as others have spoken to, which is not a problem. But we are here voicing our opinions because, I think, we believe that balance has shifted enough where the guest experience starts to suffer (this will be personal and different for everyone of course) along with the brand. That is the problem, especially if it is a repeating pattern which we think it might be given current management. Disney had a good balance for many decades and out-competed every amusement park in the industry. We want that balance back, at least I do. But I guess the very definition of that balance is going to be very personal for everyone, partly the reason for the divide on this board between “positive” Disney people on here and the “negative” Disney people (which is where I fall at the moment).

Just my two cents though…

 

[Castillo Mom]

I agree about the nickel and diming, but I don't think its just the greed that the problem. I think the problem (and this is why the DJ bothered me so much) is that there seem to be people fairly high up in managerial positions at Disney World at least that don't actually understand the brand. The brand is comfort and idealist optimism and always must be the eternal appeal of Main Street USA and to a lesser extent Hollywood Boulevard and World Showcase; comforting and familiar, but presented as they ought to be rather than as they are.

Guest surveys may put streetmosphere or sightlines or epcot performers far down the list of priorities, but that is only because of how seamlessly it contributes to the feel of the place. The brand is Happiest/Most Magical place on Earth, not most thrilling, most exotic, most inclusive or even most *fun* place on earth. The execs need to think of themselves as the stewards of this brand, otherwise they are going end up turning the whole place into different IP worlds and throwing money at ride tech every few years wondering why nobody is showing up.

This I do agree with. I know it's important for some and that's ok because we all have different needs, but I don't care about the loss of ME or the addition of Genie+. But I agree that the cutbacks on entertainment have had a negative impact on the overall experience. I understand that the pandemic has posed a challenge with staffing, but the cutbacks started prior to that. Entertainment and streetmosphere is what have made Disney stand out over the years. Case in point, Avenger's Campus has tons of streetmosphere and entertainment happening at random times throughout the day and you can see that guests absolutely love it. If I recall correctly, it's what was originally planned for both Batuu east and West but has yet to come to fruition because it was said that "our CMs are the entertainment."

As for the DJ, what was up with that? My husband was a DJ for many years so I love club music and have always enjoyed the parties at special events such as Moonlight Magic, 24-hour events at Disneyland, and the area over in DCA where they had a live DJ for a few years. But on Main Street in MK? No, just no.

 

[New Mouse]

I don’t think anyone’s ignoring it, just because they aren’t mentioning it. But these types of improvements are expected, especially to justify the continued rising park ticket prices. This is their bread and butter after all. If Disney decided to let go of their parks and NOT continously keep improving their bread and butter by investing money into it, we’d be having a far more disastrous conversation then we are now, where Disney is concerned.

This, to me, is all about the extras, the brand and the balance between being guest centric and being economically focused, without drawing examples to any one particular thing. I do think Disney is on a more economically driven trajectory, as others have spoken to, which is not a problem. But we are here voicing our opinions because, I think, we believe that balance has shifted enough where the guest experience starts to suffer (this will be personal and different for everyone of course) along with the brand. That is the problem, especially if it is a repeating pattern which we think it might be given current management. Disney had a good balance for many decades and out-competed every amusement park in the industry. We want that balance back, at least I do. But I guess the very definition of that balance is going to be very personal for everyone, partly the reason for the divide on this board between “positive” Disney people on here and the “negative” Disney people (which is where I fall at the moment).

Just my two cents though…

They also need to maintain what they already have and thats fallen off a cliff this past decade!

 

[crazymomof4]

IMO Disney has lost the "next generation" and one beyond. My kids are now 30 and 32. Both planned on buying their own DVC contracts within the next 2 years and have decided against it. They just don't see Disney the same way they did 10-15 years ago, and all this Genie nonsense has sealed the deal. They are also now parents. While we have taken the grandkids every year for family trips, the kids just don't seem to be "clicking" with Disney. They are super excited about the upcoming Nintendo area at Universal and after that opens, I doubt we will ever set foot in a Disney park again. Disney has just made it too hard to go on vacation.

I think the reaction of our grown-adult kids to the Genie announcement was what surprised me the most, and is perhaps the most telling.
Background: DH and I had 2 great Disney trips in the late 80s, prior to having kids. Our firstborn visited the first time when he was just 7 mo old. 3 more kids came. Multiple visits at all different ages. Totally raised in the "Disney cult"- movies, merch, music, etc etc. Never visited a mall without going to the Disney Store. We were "that" family of Disney Apologists who briskly defended anyone who questioned "why do you go to Disney soo much?" We referred to Universal as "the Dark Side". LOL Our plan was to continue to make Disney Parks vacations a big part of our retirement years. Were going to buy a camper and join the Ft Wilderness "regulars"! Figured our kids could stay at the resorts and "the old folks' (us) could meet up with them in the parks!
The changes that have resulted in a slow chipping away at we knew to be our "Disney vacation experience" didn't go unnoticed, we more or less quietly accepted it. But the past few years (started before Covid) have seen things change to a different degree. The cumulative loss of DME, Free MagicBands, Free FP+, and other perks for staying onsite like EMH (the *real* EMH), and now the announcement of Genie+ have created an *awakening* of sorts. I'm hearing my kids say things I NEVER EVER thought I'd hear them say. My Disney-Princess-Forever daughter, age 21 said, "Feels like a money-grab to me and it's disappointing. If Genie is up and running when we go in Oct, we'll see how it goes with our 2 park days. If the Disney Parks experience that we know and love is significantly impacted then I don't see a reason to go back."
Our kids (ages 21-32) are also excited about Epic Universe. DS29 said he'd like to try a Universal-only family trip! This just blows my mind!!
I keep thinking to myself, If these corporate decisions are turning off EVEN MY KIDS then...... this is real!!..... I can totally believe many of the thousands voicing their displeasure with Disney Parks and saying "I'm done!" are serious this time. I don't think all the complaining is a bluff this time.
Whether or not Disney cares about all this or not, I cannot say. It's been said that we (repeat guests) are not the focus of the future as far as corporate is concerned. That's fine if that's true. If we decide to not make Disney Parks a part of our future, we're not doing it to make a statement. Its just our vacation dollars don't have the same value as they used to in WDW and DL.

 

[RivShore]

I don’t think anyone’s ignoring it, just because they aren’t mentioning it. But these types of improvements are expected, especially to justify the continued rising park ticket prices. This is their bread and butter after all. If Disney decided to let go of their parks and NOT continously keep improving their bread and butter by investing money into it, we’d be having a far more disastrous conversation then we are now, where Disney is concerned.

This, to me, is all about the extras, the brand and the balance between being guest centric and being economically focused, without drawing examples to any one particular thing. I do think Disney is on a more economically driven trajectory, as others have spoken to, which is not a problem. But we are here voicing our opinions because, I think, we believe that balance has shifted enough where the guest experience starts to suffer (this will be personal and different for everyone of course) along with the brand. That is the problem, especially if it is a repeating pattern which we think it might be given current management. Disney had a good balance for many decades and out-competed every amusement park in the industry. We want that balance back, at least I do. But I guess the very definition of that balance is going to be very personal for everyone, partly the reason for the divide on this board between “positive” Disney people on here and the “negative” Disney people (which is where I fall at the moment).

Just my two cents though…

I think people have short and selective memories though. A few here have said they miss the Eisner years but they completely forget the poor conditions of the parks at the end of his tenure, they forget Cal. Adventure was a complete disaster because he penny pinched it and the same has been said about HK DL. And I think the recent improvements are way more than would be expected over such a short time at WDW - 3 completely new, very detailed lands, major expansion of a MK land, complete redo of DS, complete overhaul of Epcot, etc.

 

[RivShore]

I think the reaction of our grown-adult kids to the Genie announcement was what surprised me the most, and is perhaps the most telling.
Background: DH and I had 2 great Disney trips in the late 80s, prior to having kids. Our firstborn visited the first time when he was just 7 mo old. 3 more kids came. Multiple visits at all different ages. Totally raised in the "Disney cult"- movies, merch, music, etc etc. Never visited a mall without going to the Disney Store. We were "that" family of Disney Apologists who briskly defended anyone who questioned "why do you go to Disney soo much?" We referred to Universal as "the Dark Side". LOL Our plan was to continue to make Disney Parks vacations a big part of our retirement years. Were going to buy a camper and join the Ft Wilderness "regulars"! Figured our kids could stay at the resorts and "the old folks' (us) could meet up with them in the parks!
The changes that have resulted in a slow chipping away at we knew to be our "Disney vacation experience" didn't go unnoticed, we more or less quietly accepted it. But the past few years (started before Covid) have seen things change to a different degree. The cumulative loss of DME, Free MagicBands, Free FP+, and other perks for staying onsite like EMH (the *real* EMH), and now the announcement of Genie+ have created an *awakening* of sorts. I'm hearing my kids say things I NEVER EVER thought I'd hear them say. My Disney-Princess-Forever daughter, age 21 said, "Feels like a money-grab to me and it's disappointing. If Genie is up and running when we go in Oct, we'll see how it goes with our 2 park days. If the Disney Parks experience that we know and love is significantly impacted then I don't see a reason to go back."
Our kids (ages 21-32) are also excited about Epic Universe. DS29 said he'd like to try a Universal-only family trip! This just blows my mind!!
I keep thinking to myself, If these corporate decisions are turning off EVEN MY KIDS then...... this is real!!..... I can totally believe many of the thousands voicing their displeasure with Disney Parks and saying "I'm done!" are serious this time. I don't think all the complaining is a bluff this time.
Whether or not Disney cares about all this or not, I cannot say. It's been said that we (repeat guests) are not the focus of the future as far as corporate is concerned. That's fine if that's true. If we decide to not make Disney Parks a part of our future, we're not doing it to make a statement. Its just our vacation dollars don't have the same value as they used to in WDW and DL.

But none of those feelings are offset by all the additional lands, rides, and overhauls the last few years? (If you can't tell, the constant social media focus on nothing but the negative really drives me nuts.)

 

[crazymomof4]

But none of those feelings are offset by all the additional lands, rides, and overhauls the last few years? (If you can't tell, the constant social media focus on nothing but the negative really drives me nuts.)

I don't know. Time will tell. If Genie is up and running for this trip, we'll get a true feel for its impact. If not, we'll have to read about other's experiences later, on DisBoards.
New lands are great but what if you can't get on the top tier rides in these new lands without having to decide between 1. Wait in a long line that might be on sunny/hot walkways (like SDD) or 2. Cough up possibly as much as $100 extra dollars (for a family) to wait in a shorter line. If we would be having to make this decision, repeatedly during a single WDW vacation, in both the new lands and the old ones.... I think that could possibly be enough of a negative experience to negate the positive of the new additions.
Of course, our perspective is as a family that has always visited during the least crowded times of the year and were very good at using FP+ system. (I let the kids do all the work-- and loved it! LOL) So we have been spoiled by not waiting in line much at all.

 

[RivShore]

Of course, our perspective is as a family that has always visited during the least crowded times of the year and were very good at using FP+ system. (I let the kids do all the work-- and loved it! LOL) So we have been spoiled by not waiting in line much at all.

That describes us too, we loved the old paper fast pass system and always tried to travel off peak.

 

[monstermash23]

I think people have short and selective memories though. A few here have said they miss the Eisner years but they completely forget the poor conditions of the parks at the end of his tenure, they forget Cal. Adventure was a complete disaster because he penny pinched it and the same has been said about HK DL. And I think the recent improvements are way more than would be expected over such a short time at WDW - 3 completely new, very detailed lands, major expansion of a MK land, complete redo of DS, complete overhaul of Epcot, etc.

Yea but that also forgets the first 3/4 of his tenure, so it does go both ways. So selective memory could easily be applied here as well, because when he was paired with Wells, they were a pretty good duo. But I would consider Eisner (at least the end of his tenure, not the first 3/4 before Wells died) a good example of what we might be afraid of. We’ve seen the damage to the brand that cost cutting can do, and we don’t want to that to be the continued trajectory here. Again, selective memory definitely goes both ways here with this example but I def see your point.

Not directed at you - but in general - It’s fine to be positive. And it’s fine to be tired of the negativity. But try not to blame the people being negative, we care as much about Disney as you do. We just see it differently at the moment, and most importantly want what is best for it. And what we see right now, we don’t believe is best for it or for us, in the long term. No one is on these boards for any other reason imo. Including me. I want my home to be my home and be the best it can be. That’s it. We just have different views on what that “best” might be I think.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

That is some great inside info but, if true, why oh why did Disney not communicate it that way? If they had no choice due to vendor changes/bankruptcies and TSA changes, they should have just said that. Their communication, pre and post pandemic has been horrid...

Disney has never gone into detail why something ended Or changed. Some terrific entertainment has ended over the years for valid reasons too, but all they publicly say is to announce the closing. Nor would I expect them to. Little would be gained by Disney going into detail about how many companies were involved to make DME work. It takes out the ‘M’.

I know I am defending them there, but I too wish Disney were better at communicating.

 

[RivShore]

Disney has never gone into detail why something ended Or changed. Some terrific entertainment has ended over the years for valid reasons too, but all they publicly say is to announce the closing. Nor would I expect them to. Little would be gained by Disney going into detail about how many companies were involved to make DME work. It takes out the ‘M’.

I know I am defending them there, but I too wish Disney were better at communicating.

I think in a pre-internet world you are right about some of the Magic disappearing with too many details but that has completely changed now. So much bad press and social media discussion could be avoided with some more details (mainly looking at DME, I think any semi-reasonable person would understand why it was ended given all the behind the scenes challenges, some of them government imposed).

 

[Disney mac]

I think the reaction of our grown-adult kids to the Genie announcement was what surprised me the most, and is perhaps the most telling.
Background: DH and I had 2 great Disney trips in the late 80s, prior to having kids. Our firstborn visited the first time when he was just 7 mo old. 3 more kids came. Multiple visits at all different ages. Totally raised in the "Disney cult"- movies, merch, music, etc etc. Never visited a mall without going to the Disney Store. We were "that" family of Disney Apologists who briskly defended anyone who questioned "why do you go to Disney soo much?" We referred to Universal as "the Dark Side". LOL Our plan was to continue to make Disney Parks vacations a big part of our retirement years. Were going to buy a camper and join the Ft Wilderness "regulars"! Figured our kids could stay at the resorts and "the old folks' (us) could meet up with them in the parks!
The changes that have resulted in a slow chipping away at we knew to be our "Disney vacation experience" didn't go unnoticed, we more or less quietly accepted it. But the past few years (started before Covid) have seen things change to a different degree. The cumulative loss of DME, Free MagicBands, Free FP+, and other perks for staying onsite like EMH (the *real* EMH), and now the announcement of Genie+ have created an *awakening* of sorts. I'm hearing my kids say things I NEVER EVER thought I'd hear them say. My Disney-Princess-Forever daughter, age 21 said, "Feels like a money-grab to me and it's disappointing. If Genie is up and running when we go in Oct, we'll see how it goes with our 2 park days. If the Disney Parks experience that we know and love is significantly impacted then I don't see a reason to go back."
Our kids (ages 21-32) are also excited about Epic Universe. DS29 said he'd like to try a Universal-only family trip! This just blows my mind!!
I keep thinking to myself, If these corporate decisions are turning off EVEN MY KIDS then...... this is real!!..... I can totally believe many of the thousands voicing their displeasure with Disney Parks and saying "I'm done!" are serious this time. I don't think all the complaining is a bluff this time.
Whether or not Disney cares about all this or not, I cannot say. It's been said that we (repeat guests) are not the focus of the future as far as corporate is concerned. That's fine if that's true. If we decide to not make Disney Parks a part of our future, we're not doing it to make a statement. Its just our vacation dollars don't have the same value as they used to in WDW and DL.

I think what you hit here on is the feeling people have that they are “getting something new” or “something special”. People LOVE feeling like they are getting a deal or something free. Genie + and the loss of lots of “free” at the same time has really been what I think is exposing people to feeling like they are being taken advantage of and greed. Disney has always charged a premium, but people could justify it by perks. Now it’s a premium opportunity to be taken for granted and spend more.

 

[RivShore]

Yea but that also forgets the first 3/4 of his tenure, so it does go both ways. So selective memory could easily be applied here as well, because when he was paired with Wells, they were a pretty good duo. But I would consider Eisner (at least the end of his tenure, not the first 3/4 before Wells died) a good example of what we might be afraid of. We’ve seen the damage to the brand that cost cutting can do, and we don’t want to that to be the continued trajectory here. Again, selective memory definitely goes both ways here with this example but I def see your point.

Not directed at you - but in general - It’s fine to be positive. And it’s fine to be tired of the negativity. But try not to blame the people being negative, we care as much about Disney as you do. We just see it differently at the moment, and most importantly want what is best for it. And what we see right now, we don’t believe is best for it or for us, in the long term. No one is on these boards for any other reason imo. Including me. I want my home to be my home and be the best it can be. That’s it. We just have different views on what that “best” might be I think.

I didn't mean to ignore the good of the Eisner/Wells era because it was a bit of a golden age for both the movies and parks divisions, I was just noting the end of that era. And your point really shows the ebb and flow of this company that is watched so closely and is so ingrained in many lives around the world.

I really think this time is different though (I know, famous last words before the bubble pops!), or at least it was pre-covid. There are many penny pinching moves by the current regime but again, on the other hand, there are gigantic investments in the parks at the very same time. I don't think we saw that in previous times, it was always more one sided in my memory - either all investment or all cost cutting (been a shareholder and park goer for more decades (and CEO regimes) than I would care to admit

I really hate sounding like a defender of the current regime because I'm really not a fan but just trying to put another point of view out there from someone who has closly watched the company for many many years.

 

[bianca]

really think this time is different though (I know, famous last words before the bubble pops!), or at least it was pre-covid. There are many penny pinching moves by the current regime but again, on the other hand, there are gigantic investments in the parks at the very same time. I don't think we saw that in previous times, it was always more one sided in my memory - either all investment or all cost cutting (been a shareholder and park goer for more decades (and CEO regimes) than I would care to admit

From my viewpoint, the “gigantic investments in the park” are made available for only a few people. The rides in those new areas are too hard to get on. We have tried and have now officially given up. Sure, it’s great if you just want to walk around and spend money. Everything new seems to be more inclusive and limited and now they will be charging for them, making it worse. While these new areas offer great theming and they are kept in optimal condition, the “old” parts of the parks are looking worse. I don’t think ANYBODY that has been going to WDW for the last 30 years would disagree with that. I believe part of the reason that the parks feel so full is that they’ve gotten rid of entertainment and focused on these small, highly themed areas. Who remembers the Backlot Theater shows like Pocahontas or Hunchback? Between those shows, Indiana Jones, Beauty and the Beast, Little Mermaid, Great Movie Ride and the street performers, we could leave MGM (on purpose) feeling like we got good value for our time/money.

I understand that things change and we have been on-board for most of them, but new management is just killing what was once truly a vacation ..... a break from reality, if you will. Getting up at 7 am to get my Genie+ set up sounds too much like everyday life ..... not vacation.

 

[crazymomof4]

Is is it possible the folks in-charge have never spent a day in Disney parks or resorts? I am thinking "no" or else they would stop listening to the good idea fairy.

I was wondering this myself. Specifically to Cheapek. So I googled. I found this statement of his from back when he first replaced Iger:
"On a conference call with investors, he admitted that he discovered Disney's passion through family trips to Florida: "Growing up in Hammond, Indiana, [......] my parents took me with them every year on a family vacation to Walt Disney World. […] That's where I first developed a deep love for Disney and all that it stands for."
According to the article he was 60 yrs old at the time and had 3 children.
So this statement was made to investors. Certainly he said this to build confidence in his appointment. My question would be, "Would it not build confidence even more to have included, 'and my wife and I took our own children many times to WDW.' or something to that effect?" If this were, in fact, true- it stands to reason he would have mentioned this in this statement, doesn't it?
I think because he doesn't mention any visits as an adult, there is good reason to believe that he didn't make the choice to have Disney Parks as a vacation destination for his own family (wife and kids). Giving investors the fact that his parents chose to take their kids to WDW doesn't convince me of any automatic "deep love" for Disney on Chapek's part.

 

[RivShore]

From my viewpoint, the “gigantic investments in the park” are made available for only a few people. The rides in those new areas are too hard to get on.

This actually speaks to the problem mentioned in the article about all the investments that I posted above. Disney keeps trying things (i.e. raising ticket costs during peak seasons) to actually get less people in the parks so more can get on those high demand rides. It's a problem they been trying to address in a few different ways and it is a great problem for a business to have until it impacts guest satisfaction. They have actually acknowledged this and i guess Genie is the latest attempt to address it. We shall see if it helps or hurts soon enough.

 

[crazymomof4]

Disney keeps trying things (i.e. raising ticket costs during peak seasons) to actually get less people in the parks so more can get on those high demand rides. It's a problem they been trying to address in a few different ways and it is a great problem for a business to have until it impacts guest satisfaction. They have actually acknowledged this and i guess Genie is the latest attempt to address it.

Have you seen Tom Corless' (WDW News Today) response to this problem of new attractions being built that do not meet the demands of crowd levels allowed to enter the parks? It's priceless! Look it up on YouTube. "Toms reaction to paid Fastpass" from about a week ago.