CNN has published a list of the top amusment parks in America based on attendance.

[Planogirl]

Originally posted by Peter Pirate
Secret reports, whispered rumors, implied inuendo...Damn it man, don't type it, you might bring the tall tales to life...Too late.

Even if this were true, so what? It's part of a package. It isn't and wasn't meant to stand alone. But since you bring it up, if it wasn't for IOA would US even be open today? Aside from MIB, there is virtually no reason to go to tha joke of a park is there?

We really enjoyed US even more so than IOA in our case. We found plenty of fun things to do there and spent a total of 2 days playing and that's without the newer attractions being open. Remember that this is only YOUR opinion.

As for Animal Kingdom, I don't know if we'd bother to go there during each trip if weren't included in the hopper. I think it will be a good park someday but right now with so much to do in the Orlando area, I'm not sure if we'd bother. But that's just OUR opinion.

To bring up another (sore) subject, I know that we wouldn't go to DCA if it weren't a part of our ticket.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Originally posted by Bob O
If not for the park hopper you would see much less attendance at AK. The park benefits because of being only a half day park people will go there for a few hours and then hit the other disney parks. Now if epople had to pay the full admission price it would likely have less attendance than many SF parks.

Why gee, Bob, I'm so glad you said that - for if you said it it must be true . Really, other than the heretofore unseen "internal studies" AV likes to tell us about, what proof is there that this is true? If AK were the 1/2 day park that people hit first before they hop elsewhere that you claim it to be, wouldn't the place be empty by noon? In my experience it just isn't. Truth is, we probably will never know just how AK would ever have done on it's own. The Pirate makes good points about the dynamics of having a resort with 4 gates. A resort the size of WDW is uncharted territory and you can't plug it into any model to spit out the be all, end all answer regarding success or failure. AK is a unique park, and in a way that kind of hurts it. Sure, Disney could throw a couple E-tickets, a few B's and C's, and a nightime event and it would do a lot for the park, but it wouldn't remain true to the concept. Perhaps Disney made a misjudgement with the concept, but they didn't do a bad job with the park, and even with the miss on the concept all your talk of half day parks is just that - talk.

 

[airlarry!]

None of the other Parks could seriously stand on their own either (other than MK & DL as they're the main draw) but as additions, for the benefit of the guest that offer a huge selection of alternative entertainment.

M. Pirate, your cutlass needs a good sharpening. You of all people know that LandBaron is choking on his pie from 'Taste of Chicago' right now after reading this.

Epcot was built to get people to buy an additional day ticket. Most people that visited back then bought individual tickets -- there were no park-hopping tix that I can remember.

Your later statement that AK is what it is...an add-on to the resort...is correct. But it does not do what it is should do, and that is entice people to plan longer vacations. I vaguely remember some statistics that while EPCOT Center and the MGM-Disney Studios both added days to the vacationer's stay, AK did not.

And I will reiterate...I love both the concept of, and the implementation of much of AK. I don't agree with others that AK is a flawed concept. They didn't pull a DCA with this one, they pulled an early MGM with it.

And the numbers from AB don't lie in that regard. The two last parks are not hitting their spots. If AK were built out as originally planned, it would be the DisneySeas of Florida with an Animal theme.

 

[Peter Pirate]

Mr. Air, Landbaron needs to see reality one in awhile!

EPCOT was built to stand on its own but it never really worked, did it? It was always the "adult park" or the "educational park". I give them credit for realizing that they were most likely NOT going to recreate the MK magic and scope without major risk and capital expenditure. USF & TDL learned just how far they could go with a second park (boy did USF learn a lesson - as in still not profitable). But wait and see what the third park brings at each venue (if in fact they ever take that risk).

If AK were built out in such a style as TDS (instead of AK) or if AK were built to such a scope, I do agree it would have been a HUGE success, but I also believe that MGM & Epcot in their current state would draw virtually nobody. So what would the real gain be? They'd be giving the guest everything they can, to be sure. But they'd fiducially irresponsible while they were doing it as a failure would most certainly doom the Company. The world of Corporate giants isn't pretty, but it is what it is.

Orlando is saturated and any new venues from attractions to parks will be vey carefully evaluated on a cost basis. TDS will never be built in Orlando.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Peter Pirate
USF & TDL learned just how far they could go with a second park (boy did USF learn a lesson - as in still not profitable).

Do you have any proof of this statement?

But wait and see what the third park brings at each venue (if in fact they ever take that risk).

So does the quality of a park evercome into the picture or are you saying that USF could plunk down a park filled with Spinners and it be a sucess as long as its a third park?

 

[Peter Pirate]

I have no proof as to IOA's unprofitability at hand, but I recall reading the problems still existed earlier this year and that they were hopefuly going to become profitable next year...But as the economy is still suffering, who knows...

Of course quality of a park is relevent. It is always relevent but it always relative, as well. Disney blew it for the short term with DCA and now must wait years for changes to bring it into its own. The same can be said for the Dinorama additions. They were hoping for acceptance (for peanuts) and got ridicule (they blew it) and will have to pay for it not only by funnelling more into the park (E:E) but by not maximizing potential profits from the attendance figures now. This isn't to say that it in't a significant cog i the WDW machine, for I think it is, but could it be more significant? Certainly.

I would fully expect a terrific (high quality state of the art) park to be built in Texas, should that ever come to fruition, as the onus would be on them (Disney) to get people to travel specifcally to this park. It wasn't necessary in China as it appears virtually anything will be accepted there, though it (the complete park concept) was acceptable in Japan as they only had one park to begin with and they have a ravenous audience...Plus it wasn't Disney stockholders taking the big risk (nor reaping the big benefits, as it turns out).

As for USF, they certainly WILL NOT want to go the route of AK or DCA and hope that people accept, but they certainly WILL NOT duplicate the philosophy of IOA (a complete park) either...

 

[Bob O]

Universal Studios survived numerous years on its own merit and if their was no IOA the park would still be successful and draw visitors for its varied attractions. And if IOA was on its own it would draw good crowds.
And the same went for Magic Kingdom and Epcot before disney let it go to waste with little improvements.
Now MGM was built hurridly as an add on to blunt Unviersal Studios and accomplished its goal but never would have been that great as a stand alone park when initially built, thought it has grown. These 3 parks can stand on their own for a full days worth of activities and dont need to close early because few people are in the park(unless of course you believer disney propaganda that they have to close AK for the animals benefit)
As stated AK hasnt been successful it hasnt added days to visitors stays at wdw, it has been a ok diversion for a couple of hours but if anybody had access to park attendance for tickets sold as not part of a park hopper pass IMHO you would find the park way behind the others for people who may only buy a single day admission. Now maybe somwe day AK will grow up to a full day theme park but it isnt now and it would be a travesty to pay a single days admission to get into the park now in its current state. And from my visits there, the park has been nearly empty by early afternoon with NO waits!!!(which i love but its not good for disney) And it isnt talk, because if disney could make more money on AK they would keep it open longer but the attendance doesnt warrant any longer hours and they have all they can do to keep people their till closing, even offering meals deals in a attempt to do so.
As for Universal i also can easily spend 2 days at the park enjoying what it has to offer and seeing my favorites more than once.
I guess with enough pixie dust we can maybe believe AK is a full days park even if their is little evidence to the contrary!!!!( i guess we are dreaming when we see the park empty way before the park closes and that the park hours are the shortest of all wdw parks)

 

[Peter Pirate]

I guess with enough pixie dust we can believe AK is a full day park even if their is little evidence to the contrary!!!

OK Bob, you think AK is a half day park (pixie dust or not)...What is the term used for USF apologists? My wife and daughter found IOA to be a half day park (my daughter has gone three times in the past year) and do not feel the same about AK. I know this is just OUR personal opinion, but that is all you are throwing back at us. There is NO PROOF that supports your view. AK has always outdrawn both USF parks. That may change this year (maybe not) but from reading USF apologists opinions you'd think IOA was packed 7 days a week (this simply isn't true). In fact the very same weekend my daughter and wife visited IOA/US my youngest and I visited AK. The result? IOA was very light. They were done by noon. US was a ghost town! How was AK? Quite busy with 30 minute waits at PW & Dinosaur and 40 at KS...Quite a disparity that weekend, I'd say...

 

[pheneix]

>>>I have no proof as to IOA's unprofitability at hand, but I recall reading the problems still existed earlier this year and that they were hopefuly going to become profitable next year<<<

Prove it. Universal Orlando has not disscussed their performance hardly at all other than to tell the Sentinel that "attendance is up and has been increasing even higher" whenever they put out a "how this holiday stacks up against last year's" article.

>>>The result? IOA was very light. They were done by noon. US was a ghost town! How was AK? Quite busy<<<

Without even bringing up actual attendance, it should be pointed out that IOA has a significantly higher max capacity than AK, and also a significantly higher guest thoroughput. On a busy day at IOA a maxed out Dueling Dragons can push over 4,600 guests per hour (three trains per track). AK's only "coaster," PW, pushes 1,400 per hour when maxed out.

 

[Peter Pirate]

Prove it. Universal Orlando has not discussed their performance with hardly anyone...

Hardly? That means they have dscussed it with some, right?

Well, like I already said, I have no proof, but I read this earlier in the year, I think it was from a brokerage firm or something. I'm not interested in looking for it so if you can't conceive of it, fine...Just discount it.

As for maximum capacity, what's the point. If venue 'A' holds 5,000 and generally runs at 90% and venue "B" holds 10,000 and generally runs at 70% who is busier? The one with more folks or the one running closer to capacity?

 

[pheneix]

>>>If venue 'A' holds 5,000 and generally runs at 90% and venue "B" holds 10,000 and generally runs at 70% who is busier?<<<

Well, venue 'A' would be entertaining 4,500 guests, while venue 'B' would be entertaining 7,000 guests...

 

[Bob O]

With so little to do at AK, of course you would expect much longer lines. And of course AK will outdraw the parks at Universal Studios, its easy for a person with a park hopper to spend a couple of hours at AK when it is much busier at disney's fulldayparks and then return to the full day parks later in the day when the crowds are smaller!! Since wdw draws far more people a half day park like AK will benefit from the spinoff.
But of course if AK had attendance to support it they would be open much longer than they are, oh i forgot animals need to go sleepy.

 

[WebmasterPete]

Well, just for the record....

Ask anyone in the business here in Orlando, and they will tell you that IoA is outpacing AK by a good margin right now. AB's numbers are always suspect. The Orlando Business Journal released it's Best of list for 2002 back in January, and had IoA rated above AK in attendance figures. Again, these are all speculative as none of the parks releases firm numbers.

Pete

 

[pheneix]

I never knew the Biz Journal put out lists like that. Do you happen to have any links?

 

[wtg2000]

How is attendance at Disney counted? For example, if I go to MK in the morning, then EPCOT on the same evening, is that a separate admission for both parks? And if I have an AP and visit all four parks in one day (which I've done!) does count as four admissions?

If you go to Busch Gardens or Cedar Point, that's it for the day. One admission. But you could hit all four Disney parks in one day, and on one ticket, and count as four. If this is the case, I'd like to see numbers where one ticket is only counted once that day (or counted as 1/2 if you visit two parks), then see the final numbers.

 

[freediverdude]

I think that's why these parks don't release firm admissions numbers, because everybody would be using different rules for what constitutes "one admission", and don't want to get involved in a public "numbers game" like that. Do you count free passes given to employee's friends and family? Do you count multiple admissions on park hopper type tickets? Do you count employee admissions on their non-working days? And if we started playing that game, how easy would it be for any of the parks to have someone sit there and put a ticket through a turnstyle over and over to pad their numbers (seriously, not that any park would ever bother to do that), but this is one of those "open up a can of worms" type situations if they started playing the numbers game. According to estimates, IOA and AK have fairly similar attendance, as far as theme parks goes, and why don't we just leave it at that. I could see if this argument kept going, we would end up in a situation like the Florida 2000 election, with people counting and recounting the "valid" admissions LOL, and both sides fighting the process in court, and live telecasts of the "admissions counting" on streaming DISboards TV, could you imagine

 

[Testtrack321]

w00t! PKD makes it!

 

[Bob O]

I recently spent several days at PKD at a roller coaster event and the park managment WENT out of their way to make it a very enjoyable experience. But i was surprised how slow the park was, but im sure the rainy/cool weather they had that week didnt help. That park does a very good job with their kids area as does PKI.

 

[Testtrack321]

Originally posted by Bob O
I recently spent several days at PKD at a roller coaster event and the park managment WENT out of their way to make it a very enjoyable experience. But i was surprised how slow the park was, but im sure the rainy/cool weather they had that week didnt help. That park does a very good job with their kids area as does PKI.

They can be very nice there, I'm happy they are up there. I should have gone to CoasterCon....

How did you like Hypersonic?

 

[KNWVIKING]

From what I've read Disney never posts its numbers but does say they only count a guest once per day based on first park entry. Does US/IOA do this also ?

We were at US/IOA four days during the 3rd week in June. They weren't using the 2nd parking garage at all. In the parks,the lines were lonk for Shrek, Nuetron, Spidy & MIB, but there didn't seem to be many people on the streets. City Walk area seemed busier then either park. (Just a side note: US/IOA have the highest prices for parking,water and soda).

Dinoland: I keep reading how bad it is on this board, but we were there in May,June and just got back today. PW and TS always had lines, as did Countdown.Kids were all over the boneyard play area. And the Carny games were very busy,(as were US's). It sure seems like a very popular area.

PS: Has anyone ever heard there friends,family,co-workers,etc.... say "Hey,we're headen down to US/IOA next week for vacation". Personally I haven't. It's always "We're headen on down to WDW. We'll probably go to US or SW for a day also....if we have time".