And the Boy Scouts punt

[jodifla]

Okay, I am raising a black son. Say, for instance, the BSA said that my son could not participate because of the color of his skin. Does your opinion of them stay the same?

OK, I'll bite.

Using your scenario: Except for in my pack, they let the black child join, and everybody goes about their business. And when various packs show up with children of color in jamborees with packs that DO discriminate, they are forced to see that the world doesn't end and the scouts are people of exceptional quality.

And then more and more families start agitating within to bring down the policy.

 

[badblackpug]

OK, I'll bite.

Using your scenario: Except for in my pack, they let the black child join, and everybody goes about their business. And when various packs show up with children of color in jamborees with packs that DO discriminate, they are forced to see that the world doesn't end and the scouts are people of exceptional quality.

And then more and more families start agitating within to bring down the policy.

So you have no problem with being a part of an organization that discriminates, and teaches your children that discrimination is okay. Period. That is very telling. Very, very telling.

I don't agree with the BSA policy on homosexuality, but I can see a reasoning behind SOME people's belief (I DO NOT agree with it) because some people believe that homosexuality is a choice and a lifestyle and that one can choose not to be gay. Again, I don't agree, but I see their line of reasoning.

Racism? Now that's a whole new ballgame.

That's very sad.

 

[jodifla]

So you have no problem with being a part of an organization that discriminates, and teaches your children that discrimination is okay. Period. That is very telling. Very, very telling.

I don't agree with the BSA policy on homosexuality, but I can see a reasoning behind SOME people's belief (I DO NOT agree with it) because some people believe that homosexuality is a choice and a lifestyle and that one can choose not to be gay. Again, I don't agree, but I see their line of reasoning.

Racism? Now that's a whole new ballgame.

That's very sad.

.

What I described is how change happens. Slowly. You have to start chipping away, especially at entrenched attitudes.

You have no moral high ground here.

 

[CandyMandy]

Sorry, discrimination and prejudice have no place in my life.

ETA: No, I'm not sorry, I am d@mn proud that discrimination and prejudice aren't part of my life. I am proud to be raising children with the same values.

Here is the Boy Scout motto. Please show us where it advocates discrimination and prejudice.

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law*;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

* for reference, the scout law:

A Scout is Trustworthy.
A Scout tells the truth. He is honest, and he keeps his promises. People can depend on him.
A Scout is Loyal.
A Scout is true to his family, friends, Scout leaders, school, and nation.
A Scout is Helpful.
A Scout cares about other people. He willingly volunteers to help others without expecting payment or reward.
A Scout is Friendly.
A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He offers his friendship to people of all races and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own.
A Scout is Courteous.
A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows that using good manners makes it easier for people to get along.
A Scout is Kind.
A Scout knows there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. Without good reason, he does not harm or kill any living thing.
A Scout is Obedient.
A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them.
A Scout is Cheerful.
A Scout looks for the bright side of life. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy.
A Scout is Thrifty.
A Scout works to pay his own way and to help others. He saves for the future. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.
A Scout is Brave.
A Scout can face danger although he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at him or threaten him.
A Scout is Clean.
A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He chooses the company of those who live by high standards. He helps keep his home and community clean.
A Scout is Reverent.
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

 

[badblackpug]

.

What I described is how change happens. Slowly. You have to start chipping away, especially at entrenched attitudes.

You have no moral high ground here.

I just can't believe that way. I can't believe that any group that espouses discrimination is inherently good. I can't support an organization that does. It is against my conscience.

Here is the Boy Scout motto. Please show us where it advocates discrimination and prejudice.

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law*;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

* for reference, the scout law:

A Scout is Trustworthy.
A Scout tells the truth. He is honest, and he keeps his promises. People can depend on him.
A Scout is Loyal.
A Scout is true to his family, friends, Scout leaders, school, and nation.
A Scout is Helpful.
A Scout cares about other people. He willingly volunteers to help others without expecting payment or reward.
A Scout is Friendly.
A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He offers his friendship to people of all races and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own.
A Scout is Courteous.
A Scout is polite to everyone regardless of age or position. He knows that using good manners makes it easier for people to get along.
A Scout is Kind.
A Scout knows there is strength in being gentle. He treats others as he wants to be treated. Without good reason, he does not harm or kill any living thing.
A Scout is Obedient.
A Scout follows the rules of his family, school, and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them.
A Scout is Cheerful.
A Scout looks for the bright side of life. He cheerfully does tasks that come his way. He tries to make others happy.
A Scout is Thrifty.
A Scout works to pay his own way and to help others. He saves for the future. He protects and conserves natural resources. He carefully uses time and property.
A Scout is Brave.
A Scout can face danger although he is afraid. He has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at him or threaten him.
A Scout is Clean.
A Scout keeps his body and mind fit and clean. He chooses the company of those who live by high standards. He helps keep his home and community clean.
A Scout is Reverent.
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

Here is the Webster's dictionary definition of the word "discrimination:"

treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit

By not allowing homosexuals to be a part of the BSA, they are discriminating against them. They are making a distinction against a certain group of people that is not based on individual merit.

By enforcing this policy they are telling boys that it is okay to discriminate. What they have written in their "oath" and what they actually practice are vastly different things.

 

[Janepod]

I just can't believe that way. I can't believe that any group that espouses discrimination is inherently good. I can't support an organization that does. It is against my conscience.



Here is the Webster's dictionary definition of the word "discrimination:"

treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit

By not allowing homosexuals to be a part of the BSA, they are discriminating against them. They are making a distinction against a certain group of people that is not based on individual merit.

By enforcing this policy they are telling boys that it is okay to discriminate. What they have written in their "oath" and what they actually practice are vastly different things.

 

[Angel Ariel]

The above is classic code for "I don't care about your traditions and you must conform."

Oh please It's not code for anything - at least not from me. I care very much about tradition. Discrimination isn't tradition, imo. It's just wrong.

 

[Angel Ariel]

A Scout is Reverent.
A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others.

If scouts are supposed to respect the beliefs of others, should the same not apply to the overall organization?

Given that BSA allows troops to be created in multiple faith-based and non faith-based organizations, it seems to go against their own motto to restrict their membership based on a specific faith's belief.

For example,the Episcopal Church is a chartered, faith-based organization with BSA. The Episcopal Church does not have the issues with homosexuals that other faiths have. BSA's current policy does not respect the Episcopal Church's belief that all are equal if they require the Episcopal Church to exclude participants and/or leaders based on another faith's principal.

 

[badblackpug]

If scouts are supposed to respect the beliefs of others, should the same not apply to the overall organization?

Given that BSA allows troops to be created in multiple faith-based and non faith-based organizations, it seems to go against their own motto to restrict their membership based on a specific faith's belief.

For example,the Episcopal Church is a chartered, faith-based organization with BSA. The Episcopal Church does not have the issues with homosexuals that other faiths have. BSA's current policy does not respect the Episcopal Church's belief that all are equal if they require the Episcopal Church to exclude participants and/or leaders based on another faith's principal.

I also see nothing "kind," "friendly," or "courteous" about telling a group of people, "we do not like you, or approve of you, and you are not welcome here." ... but maybe I have a skewed version of kind, friendly, and courteous.

I also think that "changing things slowly from the inside" is a cop out. It is a way to stay part of a exclusive organization, but not openly admit that you support that organizations prejudices. At least the people like nchulka and pollyanna openly own their prejudice. I find their views abhorrent, but at least they have the courage of their convictions.

Where would we be if our founding fathers, or Fredrick Douglass, or Susan B. Anthony, or Alice Paul, or Gandhi, or Martin Luther King Jr. changed things "slowly from the inside?"

 

[crashbb]

I also see nothing "kind," "friendly," or "courteous" about telling a group of people, "we do not like you, or approve of you, and you are not welcome here." ... but maybe I have a skewed version of kind, friendly, and courteous.

Nor did they show loyalty to the Eagle Scout who was not allowed to get his award.

 

[badblackpug]

Yes, certainly. Thats why they are one of the largest youth organizations in the U.S., are rated as an "A" by the Charity Watch organization (which scores not for profits by the % of their income they funnel into services for beneficiaries) and every year allows thousands of urban youth their first experience camping.

They also hold an incredible alumni list including the likes of Steven Spielberg to a large percentage of those who have served as President of the United States.

But let's get rid of them for the benefit of wonderful "modern" society. The Mayor of Chicago thinks his city is a model of that, so use it as the template:


http://cnsnews.com/news/article/rahm-emanuel-chicago-most-american-american-cities

Oh, and since you are, apparently, unaware, Steven Spielberg resigned from the BSA and withdrew all financial support in 2006 citing, "exclusionary and discriminatory memberahip policies" in reference to their anti-homosexual stance.

 

[LuLuO]

My husband is an Eagle Scout. We are in total agreement that our son will not be part of the BSA as it stands today. If they officially do away with the ban and come down hard on Troops that continue to discriminate then we may consider allowing him to join. It is a bit sad because of his family's history with the Scouts.

 

[CandyMandy]

I just can't believe that way. I can't believe that any group that espouses discrimination is inherently good. I can't support an organization that does. It is against my conscience.

The Catholic church espouses the concept of the sanctity of life and that abortion is immoral, and that anyone who engages in abortion is a sinner who cannot receive communion (in fact, that church has considered refusing communion to those who merely support abortion). In essence, per your criteria they are therefore -- based on their beliefs -- discriminating" against anyone who is pro-choice.

So - per your criteria and if you are pro choice -- that would make them an organization that is inherently bad. None of their charity, hospitals, schools and missions would mean anything, because they are "discriminating".

In other words, one strike and you are out. No matter how much good an organization does, if they hold a value you disagree with, they are inherently flawed. The baby goes out with the "bad." All the positives-- the HUGE positives - the Boy Scouts deliver are meaningless in your "modern" world.

Oh please It's not code for anything - at least not from me. I care very much about tradition. Discrimination isn't tradition, imo. It's just wrong.

Read my above response to another poster. Then, a question:

If you are so adamantly against discrimination, why aren't you after Disney for "discriminating" against certain guests?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2276002/Second-family-accuses-Disneyland-racism-Donald-Duck-refuses-hug-son.html#axzz2KSQI4Rl1

 

[LuLuO]

The Catholic church espouses the concept of the sanctity of life and that abortion is immoral, and that anyone who engages in abortion is a sinner who cannot receive communion (in fact, that church has considered refusing communion to those who merely support abortion). In essence, per your criteria they are therefore -- based on their beliefs -- discriminating" against anyone who is pro-choice.

So - per your criteria and if you are pro choice -- that would make them an organization that is inherently bad. None of their charity, hospitals, schools and missions would mean anything, because they are "discriminating".

In other words, one strike and you are out. No matter how much good an organization does, if they hold a value you disagree with, they are inherently flawed. The baby goes out with the "bad." All the positives-- the HUGE positives - the Boy Scouts deliver are meaningless in your "modern" world.





Read my above response to another poster. Then, a question:

If you are so adamantly against discrimination, why aren't you after Disney for "discriminating" against certain guests?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2276002/Second-family-accuses-Disneyland-racism-Donald-Duck-refuses-hug-son.html#axzz2KSQI4Rl1

Disney does not have a policy stating that CMs should only hug Caucasians or that only Caucasians should be admitted to their parks. If a CM is discriminating against anyone or not treating guests according to Disney policy then they should be fired. There are jerks everywhere - department stores, gyms, schools, grocery stores, offices, hospitals, etc. If they are not abiding by the rules of the company, acting in a discriminatory way, then they should be fired. If a company has a policy of discrimination then, yes, we should get after them too.

 

[CandyMandy]

Disney does not have a policy stating that CMs should only hug Caucasians or that only Caucasians should be admitted to their parks. If a CM is discriminating against anyone or not treating guests according to Disney policy then they should be fired.

OK, so the problem is with a rogue employee, not the organization.
Apparently, the aggrevied parents are not buying that. They are suing Disney for bigotry, not the CM.

It probably didn't help things that the Disney response to the original complaint letter sent by the parents was to respond to them with a generic, boilerplate "thank you for contacting us " letter. Once this whole saga plays out, the rocket scientist Disney staffer who made that brilliant call (or perhaps even their manager) is likely the one whose neck will be on the chopping block.

 

[JenM]

The Catholic church espouses the concept of the sanctity of life and that abortion is immoral, and that anyone who engages in abortion is a sinner who cannot receive communion (in fact, that church has considered refusing communion to those who merely support abortion). In essence, per your criteria they are therefore -- based on their beliefs -- discriminating" against anyone who is pro-choice.

Someone's stance on abortion is a choice. Being gay is not.

 

[CandyMandy]

Someone's stance on abortion is a choice. Being gay is not.

Ignoring the tired talking point, the flaw here is implying discrimating against choice is appropriate. If a someone decides to joint the Boy Scouts (a choice), many here would now would appear to feel fine ostracizing him. And some might even call that a form of bigotry.

Or put another way, demonizing and attacking the Boy Scouts is a circular path to nowhere.

 

[JenM]

Ignoring the truth

Fixed!

Whether or not you believe in abortion - that's a choice. Being gay? That's still not a choice.

 

[bored]

Fixed!

Whether or not you believe in abortion - that's a choice. Being gay? That's still not a choice.

You make the statement that it isn't a choice as a fact. In your opinion it's not a choice would be more correct.

 

[RadioFanatic]

You make the statement that it isn't a choice as a fact. In your opinion it's not a choice would be more correct.

have you ever had a single gay person tell you that they are gay bc they are choosing to be gay? I'm sure the answer is no bc it's not a choice. There is scientific evidence to support it's not a choice. So your "opinion" that it is choice is built on an incorrect premise.