And the Boy Scouts punt

[kbeverina]

Does that include pedophiles?

No, but it includes really bad analogies.

Seriously, that's messed up.

 

[castleview]

Perhaps you should broaden your imagination to other examples. There are clubs based on race, gender, status.... I could go on and on. The rules differ based on the club. The football was just one example. I'm always amazed that the ones so quick to throw around the labels are usually the ones also throwing the insults and spewing the hate.

May you pick up a book one day.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

Perhaps you should broaden your imagination to other examples. There are clubs based on race, gender, status.... I could go on and on. The rules differ based on the club. The football was just one example. I'm always amazed that the ones so quick to throw around the labels are usually the ones also throwing the insults and spewing the hate.

But, as individuals, should we not continuously seek to move forward, continue to push our culture to be more inclusive. You cannot solve everything immediately, schools that were once all men or all woman have shifted; the military continues to shift allowing women to serve in combat, allowing gay individuals to serve openly.

Soceity is meant to evolve, move forward, clinging to the past and in many cases to a doctrine written by men 600 or more years ago makes little sense. The more inclusive a culture can become, the more dynamic it will also become.

 

[Pollyanna Poppins]

But, as individuals, should we not continuously seek to move forward, continue to push our culture to be more inclusive. You cannot solve everything immediately, schools that were once all men or all woman have shifted; the military continues to shift allowing women to serve in combat, allowing gay individuals to serve openly.

Soceity is meant to evolve, move forward, clinging to the past and in many cases to a doctrine written by men 600 or more years ago makes little sense. The more inclusive a culture can become, the more dynamic it will also become.

We are looking at society through two very different lenses. I don't think we could be any more opposite. I've found more meaning to everything by studying those who have lived before me. Nothing is new under the sun and history is just as relevant today as it was 2000 years ago. The ideas you describe are nothing new. They have failed and crumbled many societies. Forward is not a place I want to be pushed to.

 

[Uncle Remus]

We are looking at society through two very different lenses. I don't think we could be any more opposite. I've found more meaning to everything by studying those who have lived before me. Nothing is new under the sun and history is just as relevant today as it was 2000 years ago. The ideas you describe are nothing new. They have failed and crumbled many societies. Forward is not a place I want to be pushed to.

And there are those of us who refuse to be pushed backward.

 

[aaarcher86]

We are looking at society through two very different lenses. I don't think we could be any more opposite. I've found more meaning to everything by studying those who have lived before me. Nothing is new under the sun and history is just as relevant today as it was 2000 years ago. The ideas you describe are nothing new. They have failed and crumbled many societies. Forward is not a place I want to be pushed to.

I assume you're a woman and enjoy the right to vote and work?

 

[zoemurr]

Yes, as long as someone is living a celibate lifestyle they are not actively living in sin or engaging in a sin, so that would be fine.

I've made my point, I have other things to do tonight. Please don't confuse all Christians with hate groups like the Westboro people. They are living in far worse sin of hate than homosexuals, or fornicators.

But I'm still confused. So a boy who has identified himself as gay but hasn't acted on it can stay in scouts? What about a straight kid who had sex? Should he be kicked out? How is that "morally straight" by their standards? Maybe I'm wrong but I haven't heard of this happening. By your standards how is that difFerent?

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

We are looking at society through two very different lenses. I don't think we could be any more opposite. I've found more meaning to everything by studying those who have lived before me. Nothing is new under the sun and history is just as relevant today as it was 2000 years ago. The ideas you describe are nothing new. They have failed and crumbled many societies. Forward is not a place I want to be pushed to.

Do you believe that we should still have slavery?

Do you think women should have the right to vote?

Would you be prefer to live in a theocracy?

Do you realize that much of history wasn't history 2,000 years ago? It was the present, or even the future, and people were learning and evolving even then. If we had stayed stagnant as a civilization we'd have many more issues than we do, including the fact that we Christians would still be lion fodder.

I ask these questions sincerely, because your positions baffle me...They are so antithetical to the God with whom I have a relationship, I am baffled but simultaneously intrigued by what you appear to sincerely hold as beliefs. Explain them to us, please, because I associate with nobody in real life who holds positions like yours and I just don't understand them.

 

[LuvinLucifer]

But I'm still confused. So a boy who has identified himself as gay but hasn't acted on it can stay in scouts? What about a straight kid who had sex?

I believe LDS troops expect their scouts and leaders to stay faithful to church teaching. This means no premarital sex, no alcohol or tobacco use, no cursing, and of course no adultery.

 

[jodifla]

My boys are both in scouts and they love it. They've learned so much and it has really helped them mature. That being said, we hate the discrimination policy. I think it is wrong on so many levels. If my boys did not enjoy scouts so much I would pull them over it. However, it has been extremely beneficial to them. I think if it came down to a troop by troop decision our group would choose to welcome anyone who wanted to join. Our troop and a lot of others in our area meet at Methodist churches which tend to be very welcoming of all people regardless of sexual orientation.


As far as the 2% BS, that just makes me sad. I'm always amazed after all of these years how intolerant so many people are.

Yes, this is very similar to our situation.

I couldn't find a group that was similar to Boy Scouts. Scouts have all the infrastructure and programming.

And the overall program is so beneficial, that we decided the good outweighed the bad -- especially since our pack includes gay families.

In fact, councils in Minnesota and Massachusetts have basically told the national group: We're not following the rules. We're not discriminating.

The more of us who disagree with the policy become active in Scouting, the more likely it is to change from within. That's what's happening today, as national board members, encouraged by local councils like mine, are actively pushing to change the policy.

 

[jodifla]

Perhaps you should broaden your imagination to other examples. There are clubs based on race, gender, status.... I could go on and on. The rules differ based on the club. The football was just one example. I'm always amazed that the ones so quick to throw around the labels are usually the ones also throwing the insults and spewing the hate.

Here's what you fail to understand: The Boy Scouts have every legal right to exclude. That's been established. But what's happening is that now people are excluding THEM. And won't give them money, won't let them meet in their buildings, won't pass out their fliers, won't let their children join, discourage their friend's children's from joining, discourage major corporations from supporting.

It's unsustainable.

 

[Pollyanna Poppins]

I don't think you understand what he means by pushing society forward. Do a little history research on the phrase and that should clear up your questions.

 

[badblackpug]

Yes, this is very similar to our situation.

I couldn't find a group that was similar to Boy Scouts. Scouts have all the infrastructure and programming.

And the overall program is so beneficial, that we decided the good outweighed the bad -- especially since our pack includes gay families.

In fact, councils in Minnesota and Massachusetts have basically told the national group: We're not following the rules. We're not discriminating.

The more of us who disagree with the policy become active in Scouting, the more likely it is to change from within. That's what's happening today, as national board members, encouraged by local councils like mine, are actively pushing to change the policy.

My issue with this is that by allowing your children to be part of an organization that has an exclusionary membership policy you are tacitly saying that you agree with the policy. Not to mention you are financially supporting discrimination, as a portion of your funds go to the BSA on a national level. Whatever good the BSA has to offer is greatly outweighed by the negative. I will not support the BSA through word or deed until they change their policy on a national level.

The whole proposed revised policy regarding homosexuality was a punt any way. They had no intention of revising their policy, the merely said, "We will turn our head on a national level if the folks on the local level turn their heads." It boils down to, "We are still against you, but we want your money."

I agree with you, though, as an organization it is unsustainable. More and more people will continue to pull their support and the BSA will eventually implode.

 

[jlewisinsyr]

We are looking at society through two very different lenses. I don't think we could be any more opposite. I've found more meaning to everything by studying those who have lived before me. Nothing is new under the sun and history is just as relevant today as it was 2000 years ago. The ideas you describe are nothing new. They have failed and crumbled many societies. Forward is not a place I want to be pushed to.

Of course, you learn from the past, that is so you don't make the same mistakes; but you are entrusting your history to things written by man; something even today we often have to consider the bias it is written in. Man writes based on what they know, what they have experienced but it always is placed into their view point, and unfortunately the victor always writes the history, regardless of how bias it may be.

As we cannot get into theological discussions on the DIS, I will not go into details, but society must evolve, and morality does not need to be defined by religion. You cannot consider just one action of a society for why a society falls, if you did, you could say that democracy should not be the rule of the land because Rome was democratic in nature (not a true democracy, but neither is the United States) and fell. Rome and Greece did not fall because of homosexuality, they did not fall because of sexual freedoms; they fell because of many reasons, much more arching than anything so basic as sex. If we generally applied reasons we would also have to imply that the Holy Roman Empire fell because it was Roman Catholic; but alas, that would be foolish.

I do believe we do have a very different lenses; I will state mine clearly, mine is through historical and scientific observation while applying it to the current and future. I firmly believe societies must evolve and grow, push the boundaries of their existence (this is not just physically, but also emotionally and philosophically) if they don't this is what will cause them to fall, failure you adapt to the ever changing world, even under the constant of the sun.

 

[A_Princess'_Daddy]

I don't think you understand what he means by pushing society forward. Do a little history research on the phrase and that should clear up your questions.

Most of us, and certainly I, understand what it means in many contexts (including the misattributed ties to the theory of collectivism that seems to terrify some, including, I'm guessing, you) and therefore I repeat my questions:

Do you believe that we should still have slavery? Or, put another way, do you believe that slavery is inherently wrong/illegal now and in the past?

Do you think women should have the right to vote?

Would you be prefer to live in a theocracy?

 

[jodifla]

My issue with this is that by allowing your children to be part of an organization that has an exclusionary membership policy you are tacitly saying that you agree with the policy. Not to mention you are financially supporting discrimination, as a portion of your funds go to the BSA on a national level. Whatever good the BSA has to offer is greatly outweighed by the negative. I will not support the BSA through word or deed until they change their policy on a national level.

The whole proposed revised policy regarding homosexuality was a punt any way. They had no intention of revising their policy, the merely said, "We will turn our head on a national level if the folks on the local level turn their heads." It boils down to, "We are still against you, but we want your money."

I agree with you, though, as an organization it is unsustainable. More and more people will continue to pull their support and the BSA will eventually implode.

I do understand this point of view. We have left churches over their viewpoints....but luckily, there are a lot of churches to choose from.

There's really nothing like Scouts, though. So especially at the Cub Scout level, where everybody's just a little boy, AND our gay friends also decided to participate, we felt it was the right choice for our family.

We hope that by agitating from within, we can help push that change forward.

If only the people who agree with the policy are in Scouts, then it will never change.

I don't agree with many, many of the policies of the U.S., but I can't just pick up and move. Instead, I try to work from within.

 

[castleview]

I do understand this point of view. We have left churches over their viewpoints....but luckily, there are a lot of churches to choose from.

There's really nothing like Scouts, though. So especially at the Cub Scout level, where everybody's just a little boy, AND our gay friends also decided to participate, we felt it was the right choice for our family.

We hope that by agitating from within, we can help push that change forward.

If only the people who agree with the policy are in Scouts, then it will never change.

I don't agree with many, many of the policies of the U.S., but I can't just pick up and move. Instead, I try to work from within.

 

[Angel Ariel]

For the same reason African Americans wanted their children to be able to attend the same public schools, sit in the same bus seats and eat at the same lunch counters as white people in the deep south; because discrimination is wrong and letting people "win" by allowing them to continue the discrimination unchallenged does nothing to cure the problem.

 

[Angel Ariel]

The Boy Scouts do not need to be "fixed". They have been around for over a century aspiring boys to become men grounded in their oath of keeping themselves morally straight.

Times change. We're not the same country we were 100 years ago, and organizations need to adjust and grow if they expect to continue filling the needs of their ever-changing communities.

 

[badblackpug]

I do understand this point of view. We have left churches over their viewpoints....but luckily, there are a lot of churches to choose from.

There's really nothing like Scouts, though. So especially at the Cub Scout level, where everybody's just a little boy, AND our gay friends also decided to participate, we felt it was the right choice for our family.

We hope that by agitating from within, we can help push that change forward.

If only the people who agree with the policy are in Scouts, then it will never change.

I don't agree with many, many of the policies of the U.S., but I can't just pick up and move. Instead, I try to work from within.

Joining and financially supporting a voluntary organization with exclusionary membership policies is much different than living in a nation.

Actually, considering all things are, generally, motivated by money, if people would stop financially supporting the BSA, they would change their policy.

I cannot, in good conscience, offer support of any kind to any person or organization that thinks that any type of discrimination is acceptable. I'm not sure why people see this as any different from any other type of discrimination. If the BSA said a black child or a disabled child was denied membership, or a black parent or disabled parent was barred from any type of leadership everyone would be up in arms, but because it is homosexuality it is okay to take a passive stance.