An honest to God rumor that even Scoop may like!!!

[BRERALEX]

they prostituted the standards to do so!!

i keep telling you guys he's a pimp and you dont wanna listen. maybe the wand over spaceship earth is his pimp stick.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Thank you!! That’s why it’s fun to discuss things with you!!

Oh, well. I was going to actually get into some substance because I am not the only one around here who can see forward, toward the horizon , while some can only see back .

I simply wanted to clarify a Baron position. I didn't realize that it would be the second coming of Johnny Cochran vs. Marcia Earle (is that how their names were spelled?). The 'trial' just ended up being a diversion. Seemed harmless and rather tongue in cheek(notice all the fluffy language and smilies?). However, if no one is having fun...............

'Nuff said.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I wrote that line to Dave the same as I would write it to you, but again in a different context. I haven’t talked to Dave in quite a while, although more than a year ago we used to go round and round. That was my little way to encourage him, I suppose. It had NOTHING to do with you!

Now at the end of a post to you I would have written: “Thank you!! That’s why it’s fun to discuss things with you!! You make me think while creating quite a diversion!!!” Don’t put hidden meanings into things that don’t have them. If I wanted to tell you to knock it off, I would send you a PM or tell you outright on the board!! Ask Dave! We had a GREAT misunderstanding once.

Oh, well. I was going to actually get into some substance

That would be a pleasant change!!

I simply wanted to clarify a Baron position

No. Not really. You wanted to play a semantic game with me. You wanted to see if you could possibly twist my remarks, out of context, into something other than I clearly meant.

The 'trial' just ended up being a diversion.

Yes!!! I like these type of things!! I really do! And I’m very comfortable with my philosophy and consistency regarding Disney that the only thing these diversions do is make my stance a little clearer. And for that opportunity I thank you.

However, if no one is having fun...............

I am!! Scoop was!

'Nuff said.

Too bad. It was just starting to get good!!

 

[DisneyKidds]

Sheesh, Baron - being short on time earlier I was only trying to make you squirm a bit in the interim. Mission accomplished, but I could hardly let you go so easily . I'm back now.

Note, however, that the way you presented your pleasure of discussing items with Mr. HF - in the context of the discussion (you are big on context lately, no?) - was that it was so because HF did not put you on trial. Does that not imply that it is not fun to speak to those who do put you on trial? I really can't blame you, though. Trials can be, well, trying. If not for a tainted jury you'd be looking at solitary .

Now for that substance (and I'll ignore your lame attempt at humor - that 'for a change' bit - for I believe the lenght of your posts endorses the substance of the opposition) ............

Well, before that.......

No. Not really. You wanted to play a semantic game with me. You wanted to see if you could possibly twist my remarks, out of context, into something other than I clearly meant.

No. Not really. Yes, I was looking to have a little fun with you. However, I do believe that there is some level of contradiction, opportunity, and double standard in some of your positions/posts. But hey, we can all be guilty sometimes .

Now, what to discuss? Lets try this, as it is somewhat representative of 'Baronizing' the truth...........

WRONG!!! The standards are the standards!!! I didn’t make them up! Disney did, when they first created Disneyland and WDW

How many times have I heard you say this............ ok, too many to count . I'm not sure how the heck an objective set of standards is defined any longer. Used to be Safety, Courtesy, Show, Efficiency - or so you had been known to say (I can go look up the posts if you like). Then, in subsequent discussions, these were changed to the Traditions (could that be because you realized the 'mods' met these items and you couldn't let the 'mods' meet the Standards?). Disney 'touch' and 'feel' were thrown in somewhere - and who knows where we are now? Maybe at 'quality, quantity, and price'? I don't really know . I submit you like it that way - nebulous, undefineable Standards. It makes it all the more easy for you to fall back to your one and only Standard (actually two) - the Poly and the Contemporary. The body of evidence shows that if it is not equal in your eyes to these hotels, it is just not Disney. I believe this is a rediculous position. However, you even acknowledge that living up to it is an impossibility.

Or at least it WAS what it WAS!!

Very unrealistic!! In fact there has only been one company that lived up to and exceeded my expectations. And that company is no more!!

Forget Ei$ner. Nobody had a chance to make anything 'Disney' after Roy died. How sad, and thoroughly wrong.

Ok, on to something else........

Very, very true!! I completely - 100% - agree with you!! And if that "experience" works for you, God bless!!

Come on Baron, admit it. You really wanted to finish this sentence.... 'God bless you, you ignorant fool'. But, as you already know, I feel you are wrong. Just because that one and only company that WAS is no longer, and subsequent 'companies' have not been exactly the same, it does not mean the 'Disney' experience is dead.

And something else...........

I'm with HF on the theming and CM issue regarding the hotel 'experience'. However, I will stipulate that the themeing, attention to detail, and CM's are the core, and that other things do matter. But to you there can be no variation from your Standard if something is to be 'Disney'.

However, are there differences in staff levels between the Deluxes and the Mods? Is there a difference in room size? Is there a difference in restaurant choices? Is there a difference in recreational choices? Is there a difference in pools? Is there a difference in philosophy between landscaping (and views) between the two? Did they take pains to hide the parking lot and fulfill their mandate to insure that the outside world not enter the themed “set”? Transportation choices? Distance to the bus stop, restaurant and shopping from the furthest room? Depth of theme is another subjective albeit, very important distinction for me at least. Layout is another distinction that really doesn’t enter into “theme”. And it’s a lot of little things.

Ok - a lot to tackle here. But, bottom line is that you subjectively determined that the 'mod' experience is not 'Disney' because each of the above items is not up to what you percieve the Standard to be - a Standard which you, yourself are a bit deluded on . Please Baron, can you tell me that nary a parking space can be seen from any room at the Contemporary or the Poly?

Simply because there is a 'difference' does not make the 'experience' non 'Disney'. Not if you truely look at an objective standard. However, if you walk into a room at a 'mod' and say 'hey, this room is smaller than the room at the Poly', then walk around with your arms folded and a scowl on you face, there is no way you can objectively look at the 'experience' at that 'mod'.

As for some of the other things you pick on.........

Restaurants - granted, CBR needed a sit down (and is getting one now), but restaurant choices at many of the 'mods' are as good or better than your CR/Poly Standard. The themeing and integration of a number of 'mods' restaurants outdo the CR.

Pools - sorry, other than your magical, muffled, underwater music there is not much difference between most of the pools (SAB aside). Of course, any difference to a............ . Same can be said for layout and distances.

Staff, lanscaping, views..... where are the differences?

Depth of theme - it is as deep at POR Riverside as anywhere else.

You see a lot of little things - but that is only what you see, what you choose to see, what you are not looking at objectively. Based on that you declare 'not Disney'.

But then you say it is 'Disney' "through and through".............

Whew! The diversion is yours for the taking .

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I do believe that there is some level of contradiction, opportunity, and double standard in some of your positions/posts. But hey, we can all be guilty sometimes.

No! You may be guilty of it. And I may ‘inadvertently’ be guilty of it. But if pointed out, I will gladly ‘fess up and correct the situation. You see, I made a conscience decision to take a hard line waaayyyy baaaaack in my first conversations with Peter Pirate and the long lost DisDuck! Those two were soooooo forgiving that I felt it imperative to hearken back to the “Walt” era, which included much of the Walker/Miller administration. At first, I will admit, I felt my way around the issues. Much of it was nothing more than a ‘feeling’. But after writing about this subject for over two years, you get to know it a bit and solidification of concepts become second nature. Those vague feelings which at the beginning were nothing more than the little hairs on the back of your neck started to take on much more tangible forms. And after a while I discovered I actually knew what I was talking about!!! And could, for the most part, convey those thoughts through this medium (although still a bit wordy!).

Now, I worked out my ‘feelings’ for the moderates about a year and a half ago. If you wanted to see some contradictions look at some of those posts!! But through conversations, a bit of soul searching and a whole bunch of logical thought on the subject, after a time my ‘feelings’ worked itself into the ill titled “LandBaron’s Caste Systems of Resorts”. And the philosophical tenet of that concept has not changed since day one!!! And for you to claim there is a change is absolutely ridiculous just because I misplace a verb or defend the moderates in an entirely different CONTEXT! My “feelings” have not changed. And I do not change positions for the sake of an argument! That would be silly! You see, I’m fairly arrogant as well as wordy. Why change anything when I know I am right!! I couldn’t be more right if I tried!! (thought about a ‘wink’ but thought this was better)

Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying you have to agree with me. I’m just saying that after due consideration and much thought on the subject, I am VERY comfortable that my opinion is the ONLY correct one! If nothing else I stand by my convictions and I am rather tenacious. (Hmmmm. We are in trouble. I meant this to be a one or two sentence reply and I got this. And it’s only the first quote!! Oh-Oh! A double quote! Scoop! Don’t get confused!!)

WRONG!!! The standards are the standards!!! I didn’t make them up! Disney did, when they first created Disneyland and WDW

How many times have I heard you say this

Millions. And you’ll get millions more. Why? Because very deep down, that is what I believe! And for the life of me I really can’t see how anyone could disagree.

OK. Now the next bit is rather confusing. And you really have to remember that you were learning all sorts of new things when we had these discussions. Don’t forget that I had been at this game two years before you. I had a deep understanding of what some of the buzz words were. And it is possible that you may have misinterpreted something that I wrote and kind of mixed up the terms a bit. (It’s not only possible, it’s a fact! I know I corrected you once. And by the next paragraph I can see I have to do it again!!)

I'm not sure how the heck an objective set of standards is defined any longer. Used to be Safety, Courtesy, Show, Efficiency - or so you had been known to say (I can go look up the posts if you like). Then, in subsequent discussions, these were changed to the Traditions (could that be because you realized the 'mods' met these items and you couldn't let the 'mods' meet the Standards?). Disney 'touch' and 'feel' were thrown in somewhere - and who knows where we are now? Maybe at 'quality, quantity, and price'? I don't really know . I submit you like it that way - nebulous, undefineable Standards.

Whew!! What a mouthful! Do you really believe this nonsense when you type it or are you just looking for a reaction?

Anyway, it’s correcting time. PLEASE LISTEN!

Traditions is the training program for CMs. After you hang around these boards and RADP for a while you understand that one of the most salient concepts taught within this program is the order in which CMs should deal with everyday events that go on in the theme parks and resorts. A hierarchy of problem solving skills I suppose you could call it. Now once you understand the simplicity of this concept, you can see how it is taken right out of Walt’s philosophy on doing things. You can see how this order of things set his company apart from all other companies. The order is:

1- Safety
2- Courtesy
3- SHOW
4- Efficiency

Now that is not, by any means, the entire philosophy. It is merely an aspect of it. An important aspect, I will grant you, but an aspect nonetheless. And what makes this concept unique? Why do these four things set Disney apart from any other company? It is the ORDER in which they are written!! Virtually every other company on the globe has the same four concepts. But only Disney puts efficiency last!! After all the others! Wait! I should say the Disney of old put efficiency after SHOW. The current morons switched it a while back. Now SHOW is last on the list. Not officially of course. Just in practice!! Don’t believe me? Go hang out at the Magic Kingdom and watch the exciting painting exhibition and tell me how that fits into the SHOW!!! (Good Grieve!! It’s getting worse, second quote and I’m in the middle of page two already!!)

It makes it all the more easy for you to fall back to your one and only Standard (actually two) - the Poly and the Contemporary.

For resorts there are no others. Unless you really dig into their plans for the Asian, Persian and Venetian. And I do know a bit about them but not a lot. Maybe we should ask “the man who would be my king” Jim Hill for a series about them. Then maybe you’d understand the “STANDARD”!

The body of evidence shows that if it is not equal in your eyes to these hotels, it is just not Disney.

FINALLY!! You said something that makes sense. But you really need to take the subjectivity out of it. It isn’t my eyes. Or your eyes. Or anyone’s eyes. If they were equal, there’d be no price difference! Don’t you get that!!!

Forget Ei$ner. Nobody had a chance to make anything 'Disney' after Roy died. How sad, and thoroughly wrong.

My goodness!! You’re wrong again!! How many times in one post can a guy be wrong!!!??

Ei$ner had the chance and he flubbed it! Walker and Miller had the chance and gave us EPCOT!! Not bad, eh? And that was certainly after Roy died!!!

Come on Baron, admit it. You really wanted to finish this sentence.... 'God bless you, you ignorant fool'.

Not even close. Even I don’t live by the nonsense I preach. No one could and still spend three weeks in Disney every other year. No! You need to ignore an awful lot of disappointments. You have to overlook many Ei$nerisms. And if you do it right it can be wonderful!! I do it all the time!! SO, GOD BLESS ME TOO!!!!

But, as you already know, I feel you are wrong. Just because that one and only company that WAS is no longer, and subsequent 'companies' have not been exactly the same, it does not mean the 'Disney' experience is dead.

The Disney Experience that is still present in WDW has nothing to do with this current company. That is what I still enjoy. But they’re making it harder and harder all the time. But the company that provided that experience, that “spark”, that I fell in love with is indeed dead! All things being equal, I certainly wouldn’t fall for this company. I wouldn’t seek out a message board for a company that gives us Dino-Rama and Pop Century and calls them Magic!! Would you?

But to you there can be no variation from your Standard if something is to be 'Disney'.

Another WRONG statement!! There can be variation!! In fact that is exactly what this thread is calling for. VARIATION. Not departure or aberration. Not a dumbing-down of the standard! Do you see the difference?

But, bottom line is that you subjectively determined that the 'mod' experience is not 'Disney' because each of the above items is not up to what you perceive the Standard to be - a Standard which you, yourself are a bit deluded on

NOT ME!!! I had nothing to do with it!! Again WRONG!! I didn’t decree that they were less!! I just agreed with Disney!! THEY ARE LESS!! It’s a fact!! And Disney says it. I just agree!! It says so in the price! Don’t you get that?

Now, you went on to take point by point random examples I put out there. A list of things that not only was NOT all inclusive but was meant to be merely representative of the diminished quality within the ‘experience’! And I certainly don’t have to quantify it. The price difference says it all!! IT IS LESS!!! Anyway you cut it, IT IS LESS!!

There’s only one particular I will address because I think you need to know it:

Please Baron, can you tell me that nary a parking space can be seen from any room at the Contemporary or the Poly?

When they were first built I could tell you that!! You bet!! It was one of those WOW moments for me when I was told about it! And most of the CMs at the time knew about it. The Concept (Standard, Philosophy, Disney Touch, call it what you will) of the Disneyland berm was carried over to the resorts! NO OUTSIDE WORLD!!! And that meant parking lots too!

I believe that puts the ball in your court!!

 

[afinnerty]

Thought I'd clue you in to the possible reason for why "Chautauqua" and upstate New York. Chautauqua's were quite common at the turn of the last century - they were all over the northeast and midwest in particular. The "Mother Chautauqua" (as it is called by those who love her) in upstate New York was started (I believe) as a Methodist camp meeting spot. It is now a totally enclosed victorian style town that sits right on the Chautauqua Lake (Chautauqua by the by means a bag tied in the middle). In the summer it is filled with visitors from all over who come to relax and soak up the atmosphere which includes its own orchestra, opera and theater companies, many top name performers and speakers (think artsy like Harry Chapin, Cherish the Ladies, and funky like the Pointer Sisters and Kenny G, and political like President Clinton and Ralph Nader). There are also religious services and speakers as well as a school of the arts and lots of kids programs. This was a movement that spread throughout the country in the late 1800 early 1900 hundreds. I know there are still smaller Chautauqua's in Pennsylvania, Colorado and Illinois and there are probably others too. I think Disney originally chose this theme because the Institute was supposed to offer classes similar to those that Chautauqua offers today (in arts, literature, cookiing, tai chi - get the idea?) If you want more info on the Chautauqua Institution in NY visit www.ciweb.org

PS Chautauqua Institution is no cheap place to visit - guess that's another thing it has in common with Disney!

Amy in PA
who worked at Chautauqua in the summers so she could attend concerts and lectures for free!!!!

 

[DisneyKidds]

Thanks for the clarification Amy. I didn't know much of anything about 'Chautauquas'. At least people can start thinking of this in terms of 'would I want to visit a resort based on the Chautauqua movement', as opposed to 'why would I want to visit a resort based on upstate New York'. That may not change the way anyone feels, but at least it considers all the relevant factors and doesn't let people think that the resort is going to be based on upstate New York.

 

[DisneyKidds]

And I may ‘inadvertently’ be guilty of it.

You don't do anything inadvertantly , as you pointed out you have been............

writing about this subject for over two years, you get to know it a bit and solidification of concepts become second nature

And after a while I discovered I actually knew what I was talking about!!!

No comment .

although still a bit wordy

What was that about six pages and saying hello? (Unfortunately, for you and I alike, my posts don't seem to be too much shorter sometimes ). At least it is fun and interesting to read . Correct ? - well, look up to the preceeding quote and comment (or lack thereof ).

Lets try a triple quote .

WRONG!!! The standards are the standards!!! I didn’t make them up! Disney did, when they first created Disneyland and WDW

How many times have I heard you say this

Millions. And you’ll get millions more. Why? Because very deep down, that is what I believe! And for the life of me I really can’t see how anyone could disagree.

OK, so you say 'it' a million times. You say the 'Standards' are objective and quantifiable. However, you never state what 'it' is, what the 'Standards' are. I don't see the 'Standards' as that objective or quantifiable. Aspects of what represents the 'Standards' maybe, but a 'Standards' checklist to which we can say yes or no? If it were that simple the 'debate' aspect of this board would be woefully silent. It appears to me that they really represent a melding of the Traditions (S,C,S,E), the Philosophy (Give the people everything you can), the Master Plan (a point in time collection of parks, resorts and facilities), Disney 'Touch' and 'Feel', and the Magic (both created and received, and the essence of the combination of all the other ingredients). I guess when we talk about whether any particular component of WDW meets the 'Standard', we really need to evaluate it on all the piece parts. FWIW, I think the 'mods' follow the Traditions, have a place within the Philosophy, cannot be evaluted against a 30 year old Master Plan, have the requisite 'Touch' and 'Feel', and produce Magic when the recipe is complete. Yes, the dish you get is different than that which is being consumed at the Poly - but that is variety, and variety is something you say you embrace. In a half hearted attempt to relate this to the subject of the thread, there is no reason that the new DVC resort can't be 'Disney'. Maybe you would have preferred something more exotic, but that is personal preference. It is hard to make blanket criticism of the company because they don't satisfy your personal preference.

Whew!! What a mouthful! Do you really believe this nonsense when you type it or are you just looking for a reaction?

Lock, stock and barrel - the reaction is just an unpleas.........I mean pleasant byproduct .

Even I don’t live by the nonsense I preach.

Thank God for that!!!.

There can be variation!! In fact that is exactly what this thread is calling for. VARIATION. Not departure or aberration. Not a dumbing-down of the standard! Do you see the difference?

As I see what you are saying (but I am probably wrong again , maybe I'm even setting a new record ), there can be variation in theme. However, there cannot be variation in room size, layout, view..........etc., etc.

You guessed it, I don't agree. I think WDW is a better place for having more than just cookie cutter resorts with a different theme. I don't see this as a dumbing down of any of the ingredients that contribute to the 'Standard'.

When they were first built I could tell you that!! You bet!! It was one of those WOW moments for me when I was told about it! And most of the CMs at the time knew about it. The Concept (Standard, Philosophy, Disney Touch, call it what you will) of the Disneyland berm was carried over to the resorts! NO OUTSIDE WORLD!!! And that meant parking lots too!

All I can say to this is...............

Do you really believe this nonsense when you type it

When you were 'told' about it? Talk about the blind . Just look out most windows in the Contemporary, and a few at the Poly (where it seems to me I've been in a lot or on a road where I could see a Poly row house - maybe the people in those rooms just couldn't see me ).

Next................

 

[raidermatt]

It's called impeachment, boys and girls...and some East Bay dude just gawt it.

Scoopy, Scoopy, Scoopy....

Yes, Scoop, its true, some of my opinions have changed over the last year or so, and yes, I am more aligned with the Baron.

Why?

A year or so ago, I was an uninformed Disney fan. Nothing wrong with being an uninformed Disney fan, mind you. But when I started posting my opinions on philosophy and direction, I was truly ignorant about Disney's history and Walt's true philosophies.

I was taking a very defensive approach about a company that had produced many cherished products, in particular animated films and theme parks.

Yes, I listened to the comments from Baron, AV, the Head, and others, but for me to allow info to have an influence on me, it either has to come from a trusted source, or I have to see it for myself. No offense to the previously mentioned posters, but I didn't know them from a hole in the ground.

So, I listened (and argued), and I read. I read articles, books, and opinions. I did what works for me when analyzing situations, which is to remove emotion from the equation, and look at what has truly been happening from an objective point of view.

As I did that, I found more and more of the "car 3'ers" statements validated.

Then the car definitions were clarified, really taking the "but Disney is still Magical" point out of the discussion, and focusing instead on direction.

THEN, I began to see things that had changed just over the last year that signaled trouble. Cuts in hours in the face of falling attendance, continued attraction closings with no announced replacement, DR, etc.

Virtually everything I read validated the car 3 point of view, as well as my own readings and observations.

Now, my wife will tell you I'm a proud, often stubborn man, and she's right. But if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I have no problem admitting as much, as long as the proof is there. And in this case, the proof is clearly there.

So I find it more productive to deal with this reality, and offer solutions. That's a philosophy I try to adhere to in my life, and I see no reason not to follow it with Disney.

I can stick to my guns as well as anybody, but I know better than to do it when I'm out of ammo...

 

[DisneyKidds]

Mr. Raiders Fan.............

I can assure you you are not the only one to have your thinking evolve. You are not alone in having your car allegiance change, especially under the definitions as stipulated by the Head. I'll let Scoop answer for himself, but under the Head's definition I'm not sure there can be many people in car one. So we are left with two other options, the difference between the two, in large part, being a matter of degrees. Some people move easier to either extreme, some maintain a balance somewhere in the middle.

Things like doing away with hours, EE, E night, rides, etc. are things that anyone in cars two or three can agree are negatives. We may hem and haw over the justicfication and whether one exists, and whether such justifications are acceptable within the 'Standard'. I think most can even agree that something like D-R might not have been the best Disney could have done - but some can still see some merits. These are all things that are now, are real, are concrete. Things we can see, experience, and debate to varying degrees.

Then there is another line of thinking that moves a bit away from the degrees of seperation. Things like the LandBaron caste system of resorts. These take the car three thinking to a higher (or lower, depending on your position) level. Plush conspiracies, the belief that Disney's current, and sole, motivation is to give people less for more money, would fit here as well, IMHO.

So, yes, all relevant info should be considered. Opinions should be educated. We can all educate ourselves a little more, no matter how educated we are on the subject of Disney. Opinions should evolve. But is it possibel that things can be over-thought?

So, you are an evolved thinker - good for you. You are not the only one. I do have a question though - I guess it is a vehicle recall and reassessment to see where you stand. Do you buy into the resort caste system? Do you believe that Disney spends all it's time solely trying to seperate us from our money?

Where do you now stand?

Anybody else want to state their pledge of allegiance to vehicle now that more time and events have passed.

I'll go. I believe that Disney has lost their focus. Disney has made mistakes. Disney has not given the best they have been capable of. Some of it is justified, some of it is not. Disney is seeing the results of those mistakes, or realizing that the mistakes begat the recent operational difficulties. Disney is looking at making changes. Correction will be a slow process. With all that, I firmly sit in car two, as defined by the Head. I don't believe in the caste system. I don't believe in wholesale Plush Conspiracy. Maybe not believing in the more sinister underpinning of those things is the primary difference between cars two and three.

 

[raidermatt]

Ah, yes, I do understand that the chances of a true "Walt's philosophy proponent" taking over the reigns at Disney are slim and none, and slim just left town...

I'll be happy with a company that just understands what its rather large number of loyal customers want, and then truly tries to deliver it.

I'm fine with the marketing folks scheming and planning on how to profit from Disney's valuable properties. But let's also get some people who will CREATE more of these valuable properties so they can be exploited... Attract and retain the best animators, the best "Imagineers", and give them the resources necessary to create wonderful films and attractions that are the heart and soul of the company, and are responsible for every red cent ever earned.

I'm fine with making efficient use of resources within the parks, provided the answer isn't just to eliminate the resources to save short term money. If Hunchback isn't drawing like it should for the expense, fine, kill it. But CREATE something that will draw, and at least throw us a scrap of info on it before announcing the cancellation.

And for the love of all that is capitalism, STAY FOCUSED ON THE LONG TERM!!!!! NEVER make cuts that you know are going to hurt you next year (or 5 years from now), just so you can make a quarterly number.

Take responsibility for your mistakes (even if only privately) and prove you have LEARNED FROM THEM!

When scaling back a park results in disappointing results, don't go out and scale back the next one even more.

I could go on, but you get the point.

I'm not asking for a "Walt Jr.". I'm just asking for some business savvy leadership who understand how to let others do their job. Who understand what drives Disney's success, and who are committed to maintaining that success. They don't have to be dreamers like Walt, but they have to understand that its the dreamers that made Disney what it was, and its the dreamers who can create what we the public will gladly pay for.

I understand whoever is leading this company has to keep an eye on fiscal responsibility. However, I firmly believe that people still want quality and fantasy from Disney, and will still pay for it. To not provide that quality and fantasy is the mose irresponsible fiscal policy of all.

I just want somebody who understands that.

 

[airlarry!]

I'm not asking for a "Walt Jr.". I'm just asking for some business savvy leadership who understand how to let others do their job

Monsieur Matt:

Right on, bro.

Don't ever settle.

You have every right to ask for "Walt Jr" as you call it. As it pertains to this thread, this means asking that the person(s) who does the design and retrofit of the Disney Institute follow The Standard.

The standard is not dead, as DK would have us believe, nor was it a smoke screen, like Scoop seems to think.

As an eternal optimist (I have to be--why else would I choose Car 3?) I believe there is a spark left, some embers still smoldering within the company that believe that Disney's legacy can also be its future.

Don't. Ever. Settle.

 

[DisneyKidds]

It is not dead, as DK would have us believe

Now Larry, I have to ask, are you smoking whatever was lit by that spark, or am I communicating that badly? Or perhaps you have me confused with LB .

I have never said the 'Standards' are dead. That is a Baron line. You know, THE STANDARDS ARE THE STANDARDS, and Disney doesn't follow them anymore. I simply ask for clarification of what the good Baron believes those Standards to be - because I believe that they are alive. Yeah, perhaps on life support, those embers you are talking about, but still there. Forgotten, but not gone.

As an eternal optimist (I have to be--why else would I choose Car 3?)

Doesn't the amount of Disney optimism grow exponentially as the number of the car lowers? The differentiator between cars two and three under the Head definition is that the car three folks have less optimism that Disney will turn things around anytime soon.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

However, you never state what 'it' is, what the 'Standards' are. I don't see the 'Standards' as that objective or quantifiable.

Look to what was built before. It isn’t that hard. But I can’t make you see what you refuse to look at. So ends it.

I do not have a definitive list, complete with sample tiles, color swatches and shop drawings. I can only point you in the direction for you to examine it yourself. I say that the “Mods” are less. Many others here agree the “Mods” are less. And I think you even agreed (a couple threads ago) that the “Mods” are less. But all that isn’t really important. What counts is what Disney says. And they say it with the prices charged. They say the “Mods” are less!! So if “less” floats your boat!! Have a ball!! And.... God Bless!!!

Maybe you would have preferred something more exotic, but that is personal preference. It is hard to make blanket criticism of the company because they don't satisfy your personal preference.

My God!! Do you really read my stuff? THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT I ACCUSED SCOOP OF DOING!!! And I went to great pains explaining that it is only after 15 years and many, many, many “same” resorts that I finally complained! I think it may be time for you to re-read this thread from the beginning. PLEASE!! And then perhaps you won’t confuse my motives and/or opinions!!

As I see what you are saying (but I am probably wrong again , maybe I'm even setting a new record ), there can be variation in theme. However, there cannot be variation in room size, layout, view..........etc., etc.

HOORAY!!!! Finally a semblance of logic from your keyboard!!!

And I know you don’t agree. And I in turn don’t agree. And I know you don’t agree. And I in turn don’t agree. And I know you don’t agree. And I in turn don’t agree. And I know you don’t agree. And I in turn don’t agree. And I know you don’t agree. And I in turn don’t agree. And I know you don’t agree. And I in turn don’t agree. And I know you don’t agree. And I in turn don’t agree. And you don’t agree and I and you and I and you ....

When you were 'told' about it? Talk about the blind . Just look out most windows in the Contemporary, and a few at the Poly (where it seems to me I've been in a lot or on a road where I could see a Poly row house - maybe the people in those rooms just couldn't see me ).

WOW!! What a hard sell kind of guy. Now of course you can see a parking lot from the 14th floor of the Contemporary. But you really have to strain. I was basically referring to the Poly. And I’m sure those rooms you see were from the expansion. (OH!! Didn’t know about that, eh?) But I KNOW that the Poly had no rooms that could see the parking lot. Why? Because being a young married guy, with hardly enough money to stay at the Poly in the first place I asked. Heck!! I demanded the lowest of low room that they had. When asked if I preferred Lagoon view, Pool view or Garden view, I specifically asked for parking lot view. And was told, by more than one CM that no such room existed. That garden view was the lowest you could go. And that the place was built so that the parking would NOT be seen from any room! It WOWed me then. Just one of those “touches” I’m always on about. Something they certainly didn’t have to do but did anyway, because the could. Over the years, they could still do it, but choose not to. Why? They forgot the Standard!!!

I have never said the 'Standards' are dead. That is a Baron line. You know, THE STANDARDS ARE THE STANDARDS, and Disney doesn't follow them anymore.

No. That was Scoop. (Aren’t you following this at all? PM me and I’ll explain it to you. You’ll be caught up in no time!!)

I simply ask for clarification of what the good Baron believes those Standards to be - because I believe that they are alive. Yeah, perhaps on life support, those embers you are talking about, but still there. Forgotten, but not gone.

My goodness, Mr. Kidds!! Does it really matter if it’s in a coma (on life support) or dead! Fine!! How about this:

I AGREE WITH MR. KIDDS!!!

It is on life support!! And they are forgotten!!

See, now we agree!!

The ball need not go over the net again, since in the end - We Agree!!!

 

[DisneyKidds]

Thanks ever so much for dismissing class, professor Baron . Now I can go take a useful elective.

Look to what was built before. It isn’t that hard. But I can’t make you see what you refuse to look at. So ends it.

Not everything has to be what was built before. It isn’t that hard. But I can’t make you see what you refuse to look at. So ends it.

Either way, it ends.

THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT I ACCUSED SCOOP OF DOING!!! And I went to great pains explaining that it is only after 15 years and many, many, many “same” resorts that I finally complained!

Fair enough. I guess two wrongs do make a right .

No. That was Scoop. (Aren’t you following this at all?)

No. Seems to me that Scoop is saying the 'Standards' as you see them never really existed. That is far different from them having been the be all, end all once, but no longer being considered to any degree. In the end, it doesn't really matter, does it?

See, now we agree!!

On that patronizing note, over and out .

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I’m sorry. A little defending here of my good friend Walt. Reckless aspersion are being cast without foundation or a reasonable connection to theme parks and/or resorts. So if it comes out a little strong... well... I meant it!!

In fact, the more I read (and I probably read more Disney info, books, etc. than anyone around here save possibly AV),

Scoop, your arrogance is unbounded! But I do notice that you pay homage at every opportunity to the “Sage from the West”. I wonder why?

the more I'm convinced that this whole Walt Disney Philosophy is, in many ways, simply a well-maintained trojan horse.

What kind of cryptic nonsense is this?

Yes, Walt Disney gave the audience a great show. Unfortunately, some of the things he did in achieving this result leave me with a very bittersweet taste in my mouth to the point that I sometimes wonder to myself whether it might not simply have been better that he never tried...

More innuendo and reckless aspersions, without citing anything tangible at all! Either say it outright or keep it to yourself. You don’t have the talent, insight or credibility to “whisper” as AV does!

Seeing Walt testify before the McCarthy committee doesn't say squat about his ability to entertain his guests. But, I wonder whether the analysis must stop there.

What in the hell does this have to do with WDW or Disneyland? Next you’ll bring up donuts and bourbon, and leave it hanging out there as though it makes a point!!

Come Scoop! Say it or forget it. But please save us from your enigmatic and obscure messages!

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Thanks ever so much for dismissing class, professor Baron Now I can go take a useful elective.

Your welcome. I suggest that your elective be WDW or EPCOT. Both built without Walt and BOTH hold true to the philosophy. Once you understand what went into those endeavors you may be able to gain a little insight into what the SHOW and that ever elusive ‘Standard” really is.

Not everything has to be what was built before. It isn’t that hard. But I can’t make you see what you refuse to look at. So ends it.

Not very good, Mr. Kidds and also wrong. But I’m tired of the subject, and I suspect you are too.

On that patronizing note, over and out

Didn’t mean to be patronizing. I meant to be agreeable. And in essence we do agree. You say that it lies on death’s door step, I say the Grim Reaper has already collected what is his. A fine line. And one that I was willing to meet on. You don’t want to find common ground?

 

[DisneyKidds]

Once you understand what went into those endeavors you may be able to gain a little insight into what the SHOW and that ever elusive ‘Standard” really is.

Thanks for the suggestion, oh enlightened one . Hmmmm..... the 'Standard', objective and quantifiable, yet elusive at the same time. Quite the conundrum .

You say that it lies on death’s door step, I say the Grim Reaper has already collected what is his. A fine line.

Yes, a fine line. The fine line between cars two and three. So close, and yet so far. You go hang around your funeral, I'll help nurse our sick 'Standard' back to health .

And one that I was willing to meet on. You don’t want to find common ground?

Sure, why not, lets take some common ground. See you in another discussion, just don't suck me back into 'moderate talk', 'philosophy talk', 'standard talk'.........heck, whatever will we talk about? I'm sure well find something to disag....... discuss .

 

[SnackyStacky]

I've been keeping a tight lip on this conversation but have been watching it.

Yes, a fine line. The fine line between cars two and three.

I can't speak for Baron, but I have to ask a question, or possibly offer a suggestion. Cars two and three seem to make no mention as to WHY the magic can go back in car 2, or WHY it can't for the car 3 people. In my own humble opinion, it all stems from Eisner. My butt won't move from car three until he moves his butt over and out. The day he is replaced is the day that I test drive car 2.

On my last trip, the first week of September, I took notice of something. The ONLY place that I saw Walt's name (his first name, not his last name) were: the resort's name, Walt Disney's Magic Kingdom, and on media that came from Walt Disney Pictures, Records, and Productions (ie the Broadway productions of Beauty & the Beast, The Lion King, and Aida). Take a look around. Notice that it's Disney Transport, Disney's [insert resort name here], Disney's Animal Kingdom, the Disney-MGM Studios. That last one is a REAL kicker since the Disney film company is WALT Disney Pictures. Shouldn't it be the WALT Disney-MGM Studios? My point in all of this is that it seems to me that they forget that Walt Disney was someone. He started a company that was about quality. It was not about making some fiscal report look good. I never thought I'd say it but Walt was wrong. It was NOT started by a mouse. It was started by a man. It was started by WALT, and the company that bears his last name sure seems to have a hard time remembering that.

I'm not in the least saying that he didn't fail. Because he did. Time and time again. And there were times that he was broke, and that his company was broke. The REASON they were broke was because he was investing in quality which in the end produced results.

THAT to me is what the show is, and what the standard is. Trying to define, or express the standard based on one specific product like a ride, a show, or a hotel property is like the supreme court trying to define what pornography is. It won't be able to be done. Because you might be able to see some magic at any given resort. You might see it in some of the attractions that have been built since Walt's death. You will find magic all over the place. And unless I'm much mistaken, Baron freely admits that you do. You have to look beyond ALL of that, and look at the man. The standard is declaring bankruptcy umpteen times, and continuing to pursue your dreams. If Walt Disney had followed the footsteps that Eisner et al are treading right now, we wouldn't be debating this because his company NEVER would have gone anywhere. When he hit hard financial times, he CONTINUED and perserved. Eisner looks for ways to cut corners and save a few pennies.

And that's my few pennies on the standard issue. As for the upcoming Chatauqua themed resort, I believe that ANYTHING can be done magically by the Disney company. CAN be.....it's just a question of how it's executed. WALT Disney (not Disney®) could have themed a resort after a bag of garbage and made people say "WOW! This is amazing!"

 

[raidermatt]

Scoop, I purposely ignored your innuendo because its not relevant to the standards set at Disneyland and WDW, so why bother debating validity? Walt had his issues. So did Bing Crosby and Thomas Jefferson. Bing had a heckuva voice, and Tom was a great leader. But just like their other issues don't diminish their accomplishments, neither do Walt's issues diminish the parks, nor do they have any impact on how the parks (and films) should be run.

Not everything has to be what was built before.

NOBODY said it did. But, it does have to be built to the same standard. Part of that standard is innovation. As it applies to theme, doing so many similar themes falls short of that standard.