Alligator Incident Discussion/Fence being built at Grand Floridian?

[GPC0321]

Fences at the shoreline = The boy wasn't "in" the water, he was right at the edge, basically in a puddle.
...
And, again, Lane's position in 3" or 6" of water or whether or not that constitutes swimming doesn't matter. What matters is why Disney would put people in harm's way at night where the alligators are feeding.

There is no being "in" the water. You're either IN IT or you're not. Lane was in it. The depth he was in does not matter. If his feet were wet, he was in the water. Period. The end. And being in the water led to his death.
The movie and s'mores were not IN THE WATER. Disney didn't put that child IN THE WATER.

 

[Shellyb84]

While not a known fact, we can deduce some likely conclusions in looking at Disney's actions.

Closing all the beaches at WDW = Admitting there is a risk to guests at all resort areas on the waterfronts.

Putting up signs with clear alligator warnings = The Graves family explaining that they were only aware of a dropoff in the water and an associated risk of drowning but no clue about alligators being present in those waters.

Fences at the shoreline = The boy wasn't "in" the water, he was right at the edge, basically in a puddle.

And, again, Lane's position in 3" or 6" of water or whether or not that constitutes swimming doesn't matter. What matters is why Disney would put people in harm's way at night where the alligators are feeding.

aware of steep dropoff, but still wading in a foot of water in the dark, when you can't even see the 'sand' through the water .... Aware that the kid could drop, fall and drown, but still went in ...
I'm not blaming the parents, just saying it's a case of very bad judgement like any parent can know..

I was thinking the same thing...They said they were aware of a drop-off, yet they let their 2 year old child in the water, in the dark? If the child fell in, it would be very difficult to see in that water to rescue him. I'm sorry, but I do not understand how anyone can not see that's bad judgement. Regardless of the alligator/snake/amoeba risk, what about the drowning risk? And before you even say it, I don't think anyone was at fault here, it was a horrible, tragic freak accident. My heart aches for this family and I've had trouble sleeping this week, imagining the horror they are living through right now. I'm just commenting that I don't understand why a parent would take this risk.

For someone that wasn't an eye witness, you seem certain of what happened as if you were right there...I've read multiple reports of the tragedy and many of the "facts" are conflicting, regarding just how far out the child was and how deep the water.

 

[momofkids]

I don't know why everyone is still arguing with boltjames. This is the same poster who said he thought Disney was so safe that he let his 10 year old children wander the entire resort via monorail on their own (even though Disney says children must be 14 to be in the parks). I think he is so upset because he is now doubting his own past decisions. It is easier to blame Disney for a false sense of safety. Hearing about wild animals, human predators, pool dangers, lightning, etc is surely difficult for people who had a false sense of safety at Disney. For some, the only way to cope is to lash out and blame others. Accepting one's own mistakes is much harder and painful.

 

[GPC0321]

I don't know why everyone is still arguing with boltjames. This is the same poster who said he thought Disney was so safe that he let his 10 year old children wander the entire resort via monorail on their own (even though Disney says children must be 14 to be in the parks). I think he is so upset because he is now doubting his own past decisions. It is easier to blame Disney for a false sense of safety. Hearing about wild animals, human predators, pool dangers, lightning, etc is surely difficult for people who had a false sense of safety at Disney. For some, the only way to cope is to lash out and blame others. Accepting one's own mistakes is much harder and painful.

You're right. His posts contain a lot of fear. In one he said "They're supposed to protect me." To me, that kind of outlook on life is exactly what leads to unfortunate situations. I don't understand that kind of existence. boltjames may have just been jolted out of his fantasy world into reality, and he's not a happy camper about it. He's just learned that he's ultimately responsible for keeping himself and his family safe. Sobering realization.

 

[chmurf]

I was thinking the same thing...They said they were aware of a drop-off, yet they let their 2 year old child in the water, in the dark? If the child fell in, it would be very difficult to see in that water to rescue him. I'm sorry, but I do not understand how anyone can not see that's bad judgement.

this!

there are a lot of speculations going on

The place it happened was in murky water, algeas, brush and foliage debris, making it sometimes almost impossible to see the bottom in broad daylignt ... and it was after sundown.


lots of people speculate that if disney had warned about gators, if , if , if' ... okay, let's just go further

Okay, take the alligator off the equation.
No alligator, no snatching, no sign warning.
Kid wades in a foot of water, near steep dropoffs parents are aware of, in the dark, possibiy unknowingly one inch away from that drop off. Steps forward, falls and drowns.

No alligator.

The very same people blaming disney for this freak accident would call these parents names.
or it might not even have made past 3 pages on this forum.

fact is that we don't know what could have happened. Take that alligator off the equation and that kid could still drown, like those kids who drowned in disney's hotels pools last year.

Disney having NO alligator in their lakes and on property would not have changed the outcome. Maybe it would have changed for THAT kid, but SOME kid would have suffered the same fate (=drowning), sooner or later.

disney has it posted and played all over property : supervize children at all time, keep hands and legs inside the vehicle, mantaganse alejado de las puertas ... I consider it's warning enough that this is not a danger-free, bubble wrapped, fantasy world.

come on people, security guard checking bags, metal detectors, deputies and k-9 units patrolling, warning signs everywhere ... can anyone seriously say that they were not aware that disneyworld was in the real world ?

 

[Nancyg56]

come on people, security guard checking bags, metal detectors, deputies and k-9 units patrolling, warning signs everywhere ... can anyone seriously say that they were not aware that disneyworld was in the real world ?

And this, in my opinion is the crux of this matter. There were people who, despite the reality staring them in the face, allowed themselves to pretend that Disney is not the real world. There is a difference between allowing yourself to leave your own world behind and to enter the World of Nostalgia and Pixie Dust, and allowing yourself to not only leave the "World" behind, but to allow yourself to fall into a fantasy land that does not exist except in your own imagination. We have all been witness to parents who abdicate all responsibility once they enter the Magic Gates. They retreat and allow their kids to wander alone, swim with only lifeguards watching, sit on benches while Mom and Dad go on attractions not suited to them. The travel the monorail like it was a magic carpet ride, and they stay in resort rooms alone while Mom and Dad have a leisurely dinner. We all know it. We all see it. I think that some people who do this are the ones who have had a reality check, and are overreacting to their own error in judgment. Life interfered with the magic last week, and no one can go back and undo that terrible accident. It is sad, but no one should have allowed themselves to fall into that bubble.

 

[wdwrule]

I don't know why everyone is still arguing with boltjames. This is the same poster who said he thought Disney was so safe that he let his 10 year old children wander the entire resort via monorail on their own (even though Disney says children must be 14 to be in the parks). I think he is so upset because he is now doubting his own past decisions. It is easier to blame Disney for a false sense of safety. Hearing about wild animals, human predators, pool dangers, lightning, etc is surely difficult for people who had a false sense of safety at Disney. For some, the only way to cope is to lash out and blame others. Accepting one's own mistakes is much harder and painful.

Wow that's creepy stalking someone else's posts. Anyway I just read an article that shares my viewpoint of what I was trying to say all along. To me it's not about the money amount. I just want to see permanent changes due to disneys negligence and it will happen thank goodness. Safety first. You can't boast to come play on the "beach" even in the evening, which is even stated on disneys website, when there are alligators lurking near there with no visual barrier against the water. Sure kids can climb over stuff but seeing that barrier is less of an easy access. Much less of an easy access of zero entry which is what they have now. That in combination with proper, non-vague signage will greatly lessen another tragedy like this one. Again, greatly lessen. Not 100% foolproof but will greatly lessen. I'm always up for lessening a chance of tragedy within reason. And I think this is easily doable. Certainly better than the vague "no swimming" signs that depict a stick figure doing the breaststroke.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...iability-prior-knowledge-questioned/86036062/

 

[freshmanjs]

Wow that's creepy stalking someone else's posts. Anyway I just read an article that share's my viewpoint of what I was trying to say all along. To me it's not about the money amount. I just want to see permanent changes due to disneys negligence and it will happen thank goodness. Safety first. You can't boast to come play on the "beach" even in the evening, which is even stated on disneys website, when there are alligators lurking near there with no visual barrier against the water. Sure kids can climb over stuff but seeing that barrier is less of an easy access. Much less of an easy access of zero entry which is what they have now. That in combination with proper, non-vague signage will greatly lessen another tragedy like this one. Again, greatly lessen. Not 100% foolproof but will greatly lessen. I'm always up for lessening a chance of tragedy within reason. And I think this is easily doable. Certainly better than the vague "no swimming" signs that depict a stick figure doing the breaststroke.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...iability-prior-knowledge-questioned/86036062/

Who is Share and why do they own your viewpoint?

 

[wdwrule]

Who is Share and why do they own your viewpoint?

I have a similar viewpoint as the attached article. I knew a Cher once. Don't know any "Shares".

Just noticed.....silly typos. Hee hee

 

[Skywalker]

No one is talking about making the alligator extinct!!! Come on!

Wrong. Someone did say exactly that. Granted, I don't know if it was on this thread or one of the many others but someone did literally say that and it was on my mind.

Sorry, not everyone took Marine Ecology In The United States in college, some of us were studying other, more important things. Up here in New York, we know alligators are indigenous to Florida, we know they're a threat in the Everglades, no one knows they live in every body of water in the entire state, no one knows they were allowed to multiply into the millions, no one thinks they'd be flourishing at Disney World because they don't have any signs with alligators on them anywhere and they allow people to participate in water sports on the lake and the lagoon.

How would someone from Nebraska know that there would be a threat if Disney isn't telling them. Worse, why would someone from Nebraska even think there was a threat if Disney was soliciting them to go enjoy a movie in an alligator habitat at feeding time, something even the most basic Floridian would know since grade school?

I didn't take Marine Ecology either and I am from Canada. Yet I still knew. Being from Nebraska or New York is no excuse. If you are ignorant of your surroundings, that's on you.

Create hysteria? I sit here and ask how someone who frequents the resort and has small children couldn't be hysterical.

I've let my kids build sand castles and get moist sand from the very spot little Lane was snatched at the Grand Floridian, Caribbean Beach, and other resorts and I'm completely distraught at the danger Disney put my kids in. They were supposed to protect me. Instead they put me in danger. Worse? They deceived me. Disney deserves everything its about to get. This was no accident. I hope the Graves family doesn't take a quiet settlement, I hope they sue the crap out of Disney and get justice for Lane and force Disney to make their parks safe again. If we wanted to vacation in a tent on the shore in the Everglades we'd have done just that. We went to Disney to enjoy Florida without it's evil reptiles, not to be exposed to them and enticed to their habitats at feeding time.

How was Disney supposed to protect you again? Had you hired them as personal security? Not that it matters, after this post I am beginning to think your posts are all parody anyway.

 

[MarkE83]

This reminds me a lot of the reaction

Wow that's creepy stalking someone else's posts.

BoltJames has only made 231 posts in 14 years, equivalent to 14-15 posts per year on average, and given the number of posts from them in this very thread, I'd suggest it's more than likely their other posts are just as outrageous, they pop up every now and again with several stupid comments, and then get back in their bubble for a while... but the outlandish comments stick in your head. I know I'll always remember the comments made by them in this thread above everyone else's.

That type of attitude though... I guess it just goes to show that there's an awful lot of people out there willing to abandon common sense as soon as they drive through those magical gates.

 

[wdwfanva]

Why are everyone calling the gators monsters ? The one that grabbed the child did what he was created for , It heard splashing , thought it was a small animal (PREY) and took it! that doesn't make it a monster !!! It WAS a HORRIBLE ACCIDENT !!!!!!! I feel for the family ( and child), but accidents happen. That's why they're called accidents !!

 

[chmurf]

I'm not sure I want to live in a world where there is a warning sign on everything
because the more you put specific signs up, the less people use their common sense

Imagine that inside a park there is a sign saying "Don't climb on rocks"

you'll always find someone who will climb and hurt themselves. We all know it will eventually happen no matter what.

But you will always find people who will argue that
- it was not technically a rock, it was more of a boulder
- I didn't technically climb on that rock, I climbed on the pebbles that were resting atop that rock
- I have seen the sign but it was 9 feet away on another set of rocks, how could I have known that it aslo applied to that rock

the parks have been careless and failed to warn me

let's push it further

guy climbs on rock despite the sign, and is scared by a bee, which eventually leads to that guy falling and hurting himself.

- the sign did not warn that the reason why it was forbidden to climb rock was that there could be bees scaring you off, I was not properly warned
(and along the lines of 'i knew about the dropoff but went in nonetheless') :
- I was aware that I could fall, but it's the bee I was not warned against that caused my fall, the park should have mentionned this on the sign

yes, that's endless

wouldn't it be so much more efficient to lessen risks, to invite people to use their common sense, and start thinking for themselves ?

Have anyone noticed that the more signs and instructions there is, the less people think for themselves ?

people seem to think that the signs say it all, and when they don't tragedy ensues.
but the cold hard and sad truth is that people don't even read signs ...

signs are not there for the public to see. They're there for companies not to get sued when someone acts carelessly

 

[wdwrule]

Why are everyone calling the gators monsters ? The one that grabbed the child did what he was created for , It heard splashing , thought it was a small animal (PREY) and took it! that doesn't make it a monster !!! It WAS a HORRIBLE ACCIDENT !!!!!!! I feel for the family ( and child), but accidents happen. That's why they're called accidents !!

Not everyone does.....the CM's refer to them as "resident pets".

 

[wdwrule]

This reminds me a lot of the reaction


BoltJames has only made 231 posts in 14 years, equivalent to 14-15 posts per year on average, and given the number of posts from them in this very thread, I'd suggest it's more than likely their other posts are just as outrageous, they pop up every now and again with several stupid comments, and then get back in their bubble for a while... but the outlandish comments stick in your head. I know I'll always remember the comments made by them in this thread above everyone else's.

That type of attitude though... I guess it just goes to show that there's an awful lot of people out there willing to abandon common sense as soon as they drive through those magical gates.

Ok gotcha. I thought someone was backtracking his old posts, profile, etc. My apologies

 

[freshmanjs]

I'm not sure I want to live in a world where there is a warning sign on everything
because the more you put specific signs up, the less people use their common sense

Imagine that inside a park there is a sign saying "Don't climb on rocks"

you'll always find someone who will climb and hurt themselves. We all know it will eventually happen no matter what.

But you will always find people who will argue that
- it was not technically a rock, it was more of a boulder
- I didn't technically climb on that rock, I climbed on the pebbles that were resting atop that rock
- I have seen the sign but it was 9 feet away on another set of rocks, how could I have known that it aslo applied to that rock

the parks have been careless and failed to warn me

let's push it further

guy climbs on rock despite the sign, and is scared by a bee, which eventually leads to that guy falling and hurting himself.

- the sign did not warn that the reason why it was forbidden to climb rock was that there could be bees scaring you off, I was not properly warned
(and along the lines of 'i knew about the dropoff but went in nonetheless') :
- I was aware that I could fall, but it's the bee I was not warned against that caused my fall, the park should have mentionned this on the sign

yes, that's endless

wouldn't it be so much more efficient to lessen risks, to invite people to use their common sense, and start thinking for themselves ?

Have anyone noticed that the more signs and instructions there is, the less people think for themselves ?

people seem to think that the signs say it all, and when they don't tragedy ensues.
but the cold hard and sad truth is that people don't even read signs ...

signs are not there for the public to see. They're there for companies not to get sued when someone acts carelessly

I disagree with this perspective. All of us (every single one of us) makes judgement calls all the time about how seriously to take warnings and rules. The reason for the rule makes a huge difference in how we react. Imagine a "don't touch" sign. Probably all of us would tell our kids not to touch if they were going for it. However, if I knew touching would result in death, I would damn sure grab hold of the kids and make sure the chance they touched was 0. If the reason for no touching was benign, like fingerprints are annoying, I would try but not to the same degree.

 

[jltdone]

I've held off writing a comment about this until now. It is very very very sad what happened it was a tragic event for both the family and Disney. I feel very bad for those parents who will live with this for the rest of their lives.
Like people said he was walking and playing in the water not swimming. Yes there is a steep drop off where the little boy could of easily slipped he is 2 and went down under the water. Why are there gators in a man made lake. Im from the Midwest and didn't think anything of it.
Ok now Im from CANADA let me say this again IM FROM CANADA and I would not be in any lake in florida at night walking on waters edge or playing in the water knowing the fear of gators could be present. It is FLORIDA, GATORS are known to be very heavy in florida.
It is the same thing as me going to an island and there is a sign that says no SWIMMING im not going in the water. The don't need to tell me that there could possibly be a shark in the ocean. There are sharks in the ocean, there are gators in lakes, ponds, marshes, ditches and even swimming pools in florida.
It is very sad what happened I feel extremely bad for that family. It was a tragedy a mistake an accident.

 

[chmurf]

I disagree with this perspective. All of us (every single one of us) makes judgement calls all the time about how seriously to take warnings and rules. The reason for the rule makes a huge difference in how we react. Imagine a "don't touch" sign. Probably all of us would tell our kids not to touch if they were going for it. However, if I knew touching would result in death, I would damn sure grab hold of the kids and make sure the chance they touched was 0. If the reason for no touching was benign, like fingerprints are annoying, I would try but not to the same degree.

I can see where you're coming from, but I will disagree with the analysis.

I willl use your 'do not touch' example :

it's not about how hard you prevent your kids from touching it depending on how immediate the danger is.
No, we're talking about parents touching it with their kids despite the sign because they think they can or that the sign doesn't apply to the current situation (or to them for that matter)

 

[freshmanjs]

I can see where you're coming from, but I will disagree with the analysis.

I willl use your 'do not touch' example :

it's not about how hard you prevent your kids from touching it depending on how immediate the danger is.
No, we're talking about parents touching it with their kids despite the sign because they think they can or that the sign doesn't apply to the current situation (or to them for that matter)

Well, if I'm honest, I will admit that I intentionally break rules sometimes because I think they are stupid. An example from just yesterday: Lego store said no food or drink allowed. I brought in a water bottle. Now, If you told me i might get eaten if I brought in a drink, I'd have handled it differently.

 

[tink'smom2B]

I guess I'm one of those seldom posters who only gets on here when something is bothering me. I think some of you must spend all your time on here putting other people's opinions down. Sad. All I want from Disney is common sense. That little three rope fence may deter people from wading, but I can't believe it would stop an alligator from coming onto the beach. Seriously, are we all going to let this happen again?? What about the canals in the campground? I camped there years ago and didn't think about gators in canals or while watching the Electrical Light Parade. There were plenty of kids playing on the beach every night. Just because an alligator hasn't come up onto the beach doesn't mean it won't happen. Should we wait until it does happen? Yes, I am full of fear. I've been on those very same beaches for 23 years. We even had our two year old granddaughter on the Poly beach Monday night. She didn't go in the water, but she was in the sand. Disney has to find a way to make it safer or I'm not going back. Period.