DRDISNEYMD
*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+* *+*~The Snow Queen~*+* ~A gi
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2007
~Omg.... I've really got to get caught up.
~I see. So, if I build a brand new house with only two furnishings a couch & bed, knowing I will eventually add more quality pieces as time progresses -- this by your account, is a "failure" citing lack of substance. By this logic, youre suggesting its best to wait until I collect all of the furnishings, decor and artwork before I begin construction even if it will take years to fully acquire all of the pieces and plans to construct are put at a severe disadvantage, remaining vulnerable to life being any unforeseen event that can disrupt or delay construction financing, weather (natural disaster), war, unemployment, labor disputes, litigation, civil unrest, shortages in raw material(s), etc. In contrast, there are no conditions that could prevent me acquiring furniture and art.
~There was a time when no one desired to travel. Disney cancelled construction right in the middle of completing Pop Centurys Legendary Years, abandoning the project altogether! It was quite odd; given the framework was already established! It must have been awful for Pop guests to look that unsightly blight everyday on vacation! It took twelve years for Disney to finally complete what is now Art of Animation.
~Disney Hollywood Studios, Typhoon Lagoon & Pleasure Island all opened in 1989. Later that year, DHS adds the Indiana Jones show & Star Tours! You see DHS as a "shell" of a park; I see DHS as huge accomplishment and a platform for growth, innovation and expansion.
~I went to Animal Kingdom the first year it opened and I can only remember seeing"Its A Bugs Life" and the safari. But, the park was so beautiful and so new; everyone was excited for the unique experiences! Likewise, with DHS; I rode ToT, The Great Movie Ride and Star Tours. There was no Rock n Roller Coaster, Toy Story Mania, or night show; but we had so much fun!
~I see your point. If you were to judge the parks by their own individual merits then DHS & AK may appear to fall short, in contrast to MK, but collectively they exceed expectations. My vacation is at Disney World. I dont view my experiences at DHS, independent of Magic Kingdom. I view my experiences as an "addition to" or as an "extension of" MK. Honestly, Epcot is my least favorite park, but still a favorite.
~You see DCA as fixed, I see it as enhanced." There would be no Carsland if there were no DCA. The would be no "Carsland" if there were no "Cars" (the release date was pushed back but the project began with Eisner). Iger built four rides - test track on steroids and three lackluster kiddie rides. Eisner built three theme parks and Disney cruise line. Not even close.
~Im not sure Eisner insisted on homogenized merchandise, maybe he was sold on it by an exec. I dont know if the Disney stores were profitable, but selling retail in a mall setting is super competitive. Retail is a very hard business, and if Disney went the way of Wal-mart, then I would imagine their core demographic being turned off. Ive never shopped at a Disney store, ever. I would walk right by them, so I see your point. If you say Eisner botched the Disney stores, Ill have to take your word for it. Have the stores fared any better with Iger? What was the alternate course.
~Disney wasnt all that prelevant for me, prior to The Disney Renaissance speared by Eisner. The three new gates under Eisner are DHS, AK, and DCA (I didn't say Epcot). I think DHS & AK are a wonderful additions to Disney World. The parks need to be continually plussed, that was Walts philosophy.
~I stayed at Pop Century for one night & it was just awful. The room was tiny, run down and filthy(pre-refurb). We had a car waiting first thing in the morning to drive us straight to the Poly. With that said, Ive never had a properly clean room at Disney, I bring items to properly prep the room before settling in. I only stay Deluxe CL, the majority of my stays are at the Poly with lagoon/theme park views. Its not a big deal; its just meh, to me. The Poly pool is just okay, I love the volcano, but it gets overcrowded very quickly, too small for a resort of that size. The cabanas are a nice addition, though. But, I like AKLs pool way better. I will say, that I love the lit torches, tiki music and lush grounds. It annoys me to no end that the monorail is so unreliable, and there are chunks of concrete that fall from the beams. CR is so cold and sterile, with one of the worst pool layouts I have ever seen. The monorail going through the lobby is the magic at this resort for me. The Grand Floridian is beautiful but the rooms dont appeal to me. I just cant get worked up over the existence of the values. Theyre bright, colorful, & fun for many people. I spend very little time at the resorts. the deluxes are all that, they're just a little more tolerable, imo. The CMs are great, I have to give them credit. So, I guess the values serve their purpose. I dont know about the decorations vs themes comment. I havent thought of it in that way. Ill have to think about that comment.
What did consumers want specifically? How does a brand become stronger and successful with no substance? I would like to know specifically, the kind of products you are referencing.
~The majority of Disneys revenue comes from media like (ESPN), but the theme parks are performing very well.
~Fair enough. Im not suggest that Disney was never introduced to the masses prior to Eisner . I guess that came out wrong, so I apologize. Im not a "Boomer" so it could be a generational thing. I know Disney was a household name long before Eisner. Growing up, Disneys marketing was geared more toward my parents and grandparents. I remember the campaigns and they all had this message, that the new Disney was just not for kids anymore, then they would show grandparents dining and dancing all night.
~Disney didn't become relevant for me until The Little Mermaid was released, which was the start of the Disney Renaissance. Thats when I started to notice Disney in a big way. I couldn't wait for the next new Disney movie to be released and once the Lion King hit the cinema, I was hooked. Then, just when I thought Disney was done, they released Toy Story and I was hooked again!
~When Disney turned the castle into a cake, I thought it was so awesome! Today, I look back at the castle cake in horror, lol. I just had to get to Disney World -- I couldn't wait to see DHS, AK, Disney Cruise Line, Typhoon Lagoon, Blizzard Beach and the new resorts. Disney was everywhere, so I might be just a tad bit guilty of jumping on Eisners bandwagon.
~Wow& thanks for the insight. I dont think the Yeti is worth the hassle & Expedition Everest is still majestic!The Yeti is definitely a travesty...mostly of engineering.
I'm not sure I would say "care enough"...although I guess it sort of fits.
My understanding is this:
Everest (the coaster/mountain) and the Yeti are two different, completely unrelated (as in, they don't touch each other) structures.
The engineers looked at what the Yeti was going to have to do, in terms of motion, it's weight, etc and figured out exactly what type of footer that structure was going to need in order to anchor it. That's in terms of type of footer, depth, and material to be used.
One of two things happened: The engineers goofed OR substandard materials/techniques were used (I've heard both explanations..that the engineers goofed and/or the construction crew did not use the correct mix of concrete AND did not cure it properly). Within a few months, the footer started to crack. That's bad, as you have a multi ton structure sitting on a cracked footer....and more cracks would destabilize the big guy, threatening the stability of the OTHER structure (the coaster) surrounding it. So they turned him off. By the looks of things, it's safe as is.
They've tried multiple scenarios to "quick fix" the problem...but reportedly none of them have worked. There is a sure fire way to fix it..but it involves de-skinning Everest (the other structture), removing Senor Yeti, drilling out the old footer, installing a new footer, rebuilding the Yeti, and reskinning Everest. That would require big bucks, and equally big down time, in a park that is already low on attractions (see my earlier rambling about AK and "the masses").
So that gives you and idea of just how much they have to "care" to fix it the only way that, for sure, would work.
I suspect they'll keep "thinking" and see if they can come up with an alternate solution. I suspect they won't...and until some larger park expansion (Avatarland?) goes live, we'll get the Yeti in disco mode.
I'll respond to your comments on my post in another reply.
~Great post pilferk. You gave me a lot to think about!I think most folks would like both (have the cake and eat it, too) but would accept less (but not zero) quantitative to get more qualitative.
I suspect, with Eisner, we got not quite either...at least on a more micro level.
Take DHS, for example.
When it opened, you had the Backlot tour and the Great Movie ride. That's it.
http://www.yesterland.com/mgm-beginning.html
I wouldn't call that much of substance. Now, has it grown? Absolutely it has. But it still doesn't hold a candle to MK or Epcot (and I'll not argue the fact there are pure greed business reasons for keeping it that way..different discussion). And yet, day guest are still paying full price to enter.
And that's what I mean to demonstrate: Eisner was a lot less worried about the quality of the products he slapped the Disney name on. Now, not to the extent the Kodak execs were..but still. I think it's easy to see that..you're right...Eisner was a lot more concerned with having the Disney name on the park (and opening it before Universal opened) than he was in ensuring a Disney EXPERIENCE in the park.
Look at DCA, too. That was put together on Eisner's watch (and fixed, largely, on Iger's).
Look at the Disney stores (which are a little more plus and minus during Eisner's terms). When they started, they offered a high end boutique experience and merch to customers/guests. Granted, started on Eisners watch..but also EARLY on, and while he still had a more "disney-fied" executive structure. Once he really entered his megalomaniac days, and had changed the corporate culture and embraced the sharp pencil suited Yes men...he almost killed them. By insisting on a more homogenized (and cheaply made, to be blunt) merch selection and a "good enough for the Gap, good enough for us" guest experience.
THATS what I mean when I say "brand over substance".
By "past quality", I mean the projects before Eisner, or that were greenlit and largely developed before his fingers touched them.
Agree on the powerhouse comment, to some extent. At least to the point that they would be a very different company. And I'll not debate that what he did had positive effects on their bottom line. They did.
But there was an alternate course which COULD HAVE HAD (and we'll never know, which is why this is all a big game of "what if") similar effects on their bottom line, but radically different effects on the quality of the products that had their name on them.
I disagree, here. I think Disney was already pretty ingrained in the social consciousness of the masses. In fact, I think Eisner played OFF of that, actually, to make his big bucks.
3 new gates? Epcot was really not his. Disney MGM (which we covered) was. AK (which we've covered and I'm not sure I would count as much of a success story, all things considered) was. So was DCA. And Disneylandaris.
Notice that, of those parks, almost every one needed massive "fixes", after they opened, to actually make them appealing to guests. I would argue that DHS still isn't fully fixed and AK isn't "theme-parky" enough for the masses. That's because Eisner was very much a "Field of Dreams" guy: Build it and they will come (because we're Disney and they HAVE to). He's not altogether wrong, either.
He built (or had built) some (SOME) very nice resorts and some that are...just OK. I agree with many here who say the values are decorated, not themed...but that's just MHO. They do fill rooms, so that's good for their bottom line. And they obviously have not reached saturation point, yet. One wonders, again, though.....what might have been.
I would not count ABC as an unmitigated win for Eisner. During his actual tenure, it was more of an albatross (ditto ABC Family...I have no idea what those execs were smoking, given their business model/plans, and the fact they were impossible to implement). It has been more successful, lately...but that's because they've had better management (and, I'd suggest, less micro-managing from Eisner).
Pixar...again, he gets mixed marks. He prayed on a small start up company, giving them TERRIBLE terms, and won the lottery. He had ZERO input on the quality of the Pixar product, too (or, rather, only as much input as Pixar decided to give him, to play nice). Remember, Disney just distributed what Pixar gave them. Lassiter might have been the one guy, on earth, who got to tell Eisner to "go scratch", on occasion, when Eisner sent his notes along.
Eisner also relied on Pixar, letting the Disney animation quality tank (and trying to shutter the division, remember), and then practically ran them out of town with his ego and unwillingness to actually share in their own success. Yes, Iger deserves some credit for being more human and being able to make a reasonable deal to purchase them. But, at that point, Pixar had Disney basically over a barrel.
Disney Cruise line...I can't disagree. It's a bright spot, for sure. I don't know a lot about the business side history of that concept...so can't comment much on the development or impetus for that move. Maybe someone else might disagree....
DVC....again, it's hard to disagree. It's provided a decent product for an (arguably) reasonable price. And it's made the company boatloads. I'd argue the expansion of DVC was a bit of a no-brainer, given the way OKW sold (probably WAY under what the market would have borne)..but he did greenlight OKW, so...there you go.
The frail position is an easy excuse, EARLY. But the fact is: If Disney had the capital to invest.....that time was past. Especially by the late 80's. You can excuse missing the boat early, I guess. But the funny part is: Exactly the opposite happened. The quality/substance was noticeably better early, in pretty much every business unit, and got worse as they got stronger.
That's a tell tale side that "branding" is taking a front seat to substance.
The funny aside is: Disney was never in trouble because of the quality or substance of the products they offered. They were markedly different from other brands (who faded because they either lost quality, share, or failed to keep up with changing trends/technology) because they still had a quality product to offer. They had quite valuable assets to use, that consumers WANTED.
They just didn't want to sell them.
Eisner had to use the assets he had. Yes, the brand was one of them. But there are different ways to harness a brand. One is easy..short term..and potentially harmful long term. The other is hard, short term, and can end up making the brand stronger (and more valuable) long term.
Eisner went one way. It made them scads of money, which is good for shareholders and, hopefully, the company long term. I'm hoping we're seeing SOME signs (certainly at DLR...but not only there, and not ONLY in resorts) they're abandoning that for a "brand re-strenghtening"..meaning offerings of greater substance.
I'll grant you: It's a great big game of "what if" and monday morning quarterbacking.
Eisner didn't need quick cash. Once he was installed as CEO, and the family bickering stopped, he was OK. He had assets that he could use to generate revenue, and the stockholders knew it. Largely, the share price was tanking because the execs refused to open the vault...to ANYONE (broadcast, home video, whatever) and develop their other assets. Eisner came in, with the backers vocal support and (really) insistence) saying he was going to do all that. Stability hit when Eisner's name was announced, really. HIS brand was the big stabilizing force (funny how quickly ornery investors calm down).
He didn't take the easiest path...because he probably would have destroyed the company he was working for. He didn't do that. He could have started out, right away, slapping the Disney name on everything and anything that showed the faintest interest. He was a bit more discerning...a bit more than a bit early in his tenure and ONLY a bit, later.
But he took an easier path than the one being suggested.
~I see. So, if I build a brand new house with only two furnishings a couch & bed, knowing I will eventually add more quality pieces as time progresses -- this by your account, is a "failure" citing lack of substance. By this logic, youre suggesting its best to wait until I collect all of the furnishings, decor and artwork before I begin construction even if it will take years to fully acquire all of the pieces and plans to construct are put at a severe disadvantage, remaining vulnerable to life being any unforeseen event that can disrupt or delay construction financing, weather (natural disaster), war, unemployment, labor disputes, litigation, civil unrest, shortages in raw material(s), etc. In contrast, there are no conditions that could prevent me acquiring furniture and art.
~There was a time when no one desired to travel. Disney cancelled construction right in the middle of completing Pop Centurys Legendary Years, abandoning the project altogether! It was quite odd; given the framework was already established! It must have been awful for Pop guests to look that unsightly blight everyday on vacation! It took twelve years for Disney to finally complete what is now Art of Animation.
~Disney Hollywood Studios, Typhoon Lagoon & Pleasure Island all opened in 1989. Later that year, DHS adds the Indiana Jones show & Star Tours! You see DHS as a "shell" of a park; I see DHS as huge accomplishment and a platform for growth, innovation and expansion.
~I went to Animal Kingdom the first year it opened and I can only remember seeing"Its A Bugs Life" and the safari. But, the park was so beautiful and so new; everyone was excited for the unique experiences! Likewise, with DHS; I rode ToT, The Great Movie Ride and Star Tours. There was no Rock n Roller Coaster, Toy Story Mania, or night show; but we had so much fun!
~I see your point. If you were to judge the parks by their own individual merits then DHS & AK may appear to fall short, in contrast to MK, but collectively they exceed expectations. My vacation is at Disney World. I dont view my experiences at DHS, independent of Magic Kingdom. I view my experiences as an "addition to" or as an "extension of" MK. Honestly, Epcot is my least favorite park, but still a favorite.
~You see DCA as fixed, I see it as enhanced." There would be no Carsland if there were no DCA. The would be no "Carsland" if there were no "Cars" (the release date was pushed back but the project began with Eisner). Iger built four rides - test track on steroids and three lackluster kiddie rides. Eisner built three theme parks and Disney cruise line. Not even close.
~Im not sure Eisner insisted on homogenized merchandise, maybe he was sold on it by an exec. I dont know if the Disney stores were profitable, but selling retail in a mall setting is super competitive. Retail is a very hard business, and if Disney went the way of Wal-mart, then I would imagine their core demographic being turned off. Ive never shopped at a Disney store, ever. I would walk right by them, so I see your point. If you say Eisner botched the Disney stores, Ill have to take your word for it. Have the stores fared any better with Iger? What was the alternate course.
~Disney wasnt all that prelevant for me, prior to The Disney Renaissance speared by Eisner. The three new gates under Eisner are DHS, AK, and DCA (I didn't say Epcot). I think DHS & AK are a wonderful additions to Disney World. The parks need to be continually plussed, that was Walts philosophy.
~I stayed at Pop Century for one night & it was just awful. The room was tiny, run down and filthy(pre-refurb). We had a car waiting first thing in the morning to drive us straight to the Poly. With that said, Ive never had a properly clean room at Disney, I bring items to properly prep the room before settling in. I only stay Deluxe CL, the majority of my stays are at the Poly with lagoon/theme park views. Its not a big deal; its just meh, to me. The Poly pool is just okay, I love the volcano, but it gets overcrowded very quickly, too small for a resort of that size. The cabanas are a nice addition, though. But, I like AKLs pool way better. I will say, that I love the lit torches, tiki music and lush grounds. It annoys me to no end that the monorail is so unreliable, and there are chunks of concrete that fall from the beams. CR is so cold and sterile, with one of the worst pool layouts I have ever seen. The monorail going through the lobby is the magic at this resort for me. The Grand Floridian is beautiful but the rooms dont appeal to me. I just cant get worked up over the existence of the values. Theyre bright, colorful, & fun for many people. I spend very little time at the resorts. the deluxes are all that, they're just a little more tolerable, imo. The CMs are great, I have to give them credit. So, I guess the values serve their purpose. I dont know about the decorations vs themes comment. I havent thought of it in that way. Ill have to think about that comment.
What did consumers want specifically? How does a brand become stronger and successful with no substance? I would like to know specifically, the kind of products you are referencing.
This has already been commented on, but I'll reiterate, because it bothers me.
What past quality?
Well Disneyland and WDW for one. Obviously them.
How about every single animated film made by Walt Disney? That was Disney's other big revenue stream. Rereleasing past films to theaters.
And how did Eisner and Wells resurect the company? By releasing those old films to Video. How in the good lord's name would Eisner and Wells have resurrected Disney if they couldn't have rented or sold copies of Snow White, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty?
All I can think is that what you really mean is that Disney spent a decade making Herbie sequels instead of good films, but then it was Ron Miller that made Splash and Tron, not Eisner and those were the films that restarted the motion picture division.
And for the record, the Theme parks are still where the company derives most of their money.
This has been addressed also, but What?
I'm not even sure how to address this? Mickey Mouse Club? Wonderful World of Color? Davy Crocket? DISNEYLAND!!!!
Disney was a household name for the entire baby boomer generation and those that followed. All Eisner did was capitalize on the growing credit and housing market to encourage people to take more Vacations and buy Timeshares. He didn't bring Disney to the Masses. Disney was already a household name. He just gave you more ways to give him your money.
~The majority of Disneys revenue comes from media like (ESPN), but the theme parks are performing very well.
~Fair enough. Im not suggest that Disney was never introduced to the masses prior to Eisner . I guess that came out wrong, so I apologize. Im not a "Boomer" so it could be a generational thing. I know Disney was a household name long before Eisner. Growing up, Disneys marketing was geared more toward my parents and grandparents. I remember the campaigns and they all had this message, that the new Disney was just not for kids anymore, then they would show grandparents dining and dancing all night.
~Disney didn't become relevant for me until The Little Mermaid was released, which was the start of the Disney Renaissance. Thats when I started to notice Disney in a big way. I couldn't wait for the next new Disney movie to be released and once the Lion King hit the cinema, I was hooked. Then, just when I thought Disney was done, they released Toy Story and I was hooked again!
~When Disney turned the castle into a cake, I thought it was so awesome! Today, I look back at the castle cake in horror, lol. I just had to get to Disney World -- I couldn't wait to see DHS, AK, Disney Cruise Line, Typhoon Lagoon, Blizzard Beach and the new resorts. Disney was everywhere, so I might be just a tad bit guilty of jumping on Eisners bandwagon.