A Girl In DD's Grade

[luvsJack]

Well, I used to say that I know exactly what we would do if dd ended up here, but now I am not so sure. This hits very close to home and really has us thinking.

I know we would be there for her and help her make the best decision for her and the child.

While I don't believe in abortion, I do understand the way luvmy3 feels. When I first heard about "amy", it did cross my mind. Knowing that a 13 year old would have to give up her life is really a hard cross to bear. Of course the baby is just as important, imho, too. I just don't know what we would do. I just thank God that its NOT dd and hope that all the things we do and the things we teach her will keep it from happening.

 

[crashbb]

Can you, legally, force a 13 year old to have an abortion? At what ages can a parent force a daughter to have an abortion?

 

[luvmy3]

Well, my thought is that if she's old enough to be having sex, then she's old enough to start stepping up to some adult responsibilities and decision making. And it's my job as her mother to get her there.

Also, at 13yo we'd likely also be looking at a whole lot of legal trouble for whomever got her pregnant. So that would be a big issue, too. There'd be a LOT of variables to consider in that situation.

Of course, I agree with you that every parent has to do what they believe is right - there's no argument about that. But I still think that forcing an abortion on a non-consenting child can have lifelong consequences for both mother and daughter, which may be worse than other options, including giving the baby up for adoption.

P.S. The other problem with the "she'll do what I say, period!" approach is that odds are very good that if the child doesn't want an abortion she simply won't tell anyone she's pregnant until it's too late. I do remember looking at my mum when she told me that I'd have an abortion if I ever got pregnant and thinking, "Okay, you'll be the last to know."

The problem is with a 13 year old, is that there are very real limits to their responsibilities. You can't get her there when she can't get a job to give any support to her baby, you can't get her there when she can't even drive her baby to their well care appointment, and the list goes on. The real adults, us parents, will have to do that stuff and IMHO that has nothing to do with helping her get there, its just taking on the responsibilities of parenthood yourself.
I would also argue that they aren't old enough to have sex, they only think they are, and when they end up pregnant they only think they can handle it, whether it be pregnancy, abortion, childbirth, adoption or being a parent. My job is too make sure she is ready to handle it if she ever has to, and at 13 she isn't, so its my job to make the decision for her.

 

[Magpie]

Can you, legally, force a 13 year old to have an abortion? At what ages can a parent force a daughter to have an abortion?

I think "legality" isn't really the issue, as practically any parent can browbeat a child into saying yes to just about anything.

But it's a good question!

I attempted to Google it, and most of what I found agrees that no person in the US can be forced to have an abortion against their will, nor is it legal to threaten or coerce them. But of course, parents threaten and coerce their children all the time, so I'm not sure how they'd enforce that.

Dunno about Canada, but it's probably the same as the US. And apparently in Brazil the gov't can force 13yos to have abortions (at least according to one news story I saw).

 

[luvmy3]

Can you, legally, force a 13 year old to have an abortion? At what ages can a parent force a daughter to have an abortion?

Whats interesting is that we parents make medical decisions all the time for our children, we force them to go to the docs, to get their shots, to go to the dentist, dermatologist, we force them to get braces, etc etc etc. I don't see forcing them to get an abortion as different from any other medical procedure I "force" my child to do. I don' know what the law says in the matter, though.

 

[Magpie]

The problem is with a 13 year old, is that there are very real limits to their responsibilities. You can't get her there when she can't get a job to give any support to her baby, you can't get her there when she can't even drive her baby to their well care appointment, and the list goes on. The real adults, us parents, will have to do that stuff and IMHO that has nothing to do with helping her get there, its just taking on the responsibilities of parenthood yourself.
I would also argue that they aren't old enough to have sex, they only think they are, and when they end up pregnant they only think they can handle it, whether it be pregnancy, abortion, childbirth, adoption or being a parent. My job is too make sure she is ready to handle it if she ever has to, and at 13 she isn't, so its my job to make the decision for her.

Except really you can't make that decision for her, unless she agrees to co-operate with you. If she keeps her pregnancy a secret from you, or if she tells the doctor that she doesn't want an abortion, you're out of luck. One way or another, she's making her own choices.

She can even choose to go into foster care, and someone else will drive her to her doctor's appointments.

 

[luvmy3]

I think "legality" isn't really the issue, as practically any parent can browbeat a child into saying yes to just about anything.

But it's a good question!

I attempted to Google it, and most of what I found agrees that no person in the US can be forced to have an abortion against their will, nor is it legal to threaten or coerce them. But of course, parents threaten and coerce their children all the time, so I'm not sure how they'd enforce that.

Dunno about Canada, but it's probably the same as the US. And apparently in Brazil the gov't can force 13yos to have abortions (at least according to one news story I saw).

Just wanted to say that you keep using the term "browbeat" but it doesn't really have to come down to that I am capable of having a rational discussion with my dd to get her to see why there is only one right decision at that age. I don't need to use intimidation and I certainly don't need to tie her up and drag her to the clinic either

 

[crashbb]

Whats interesting is that we parents make medical decisions all the time for our children, we force them to go to the docs, to get their shots, to go to the dentist, dermatologist, we force them to get braces, etc etc etc. I don't see forcing them to get an abortion as different from any other medical procedure I "force" my child to do. I don' know what the law says in the matter, though.

I agree with your points, and I wasn't asking it as a loaded question - I was honestly curious.

I know that, for example, when I enroll children into a medical study, we have both CONSENT forms and ASSENT forms. If they are under 18 years, they cannot sign the CONSENT forms (a parent/guardian has to), but if they are over 12 years they do sign the ASSENT form. They cannot be enrolled in the study (even if the parent signs the consent), unless they sign the assent.

And, unlike many/most surgeries, a child can have an abortion without her parent/guardian signing a consent form in some states.

 

[luvmy3]

Except really you can't make that decision for her, unless she agrees to co-operate with you. If she keeps her pregnancy a secret from you, or if she tells the doctor that she doesn't want an abortion, you're out of luck. One way or another, she's making her own choices.

She can even choose to go into foster care, and someone else will drive her to her doctor's appointments.

She could, but like I said before, I know my dd and I know she wouldn't do those things because she isn't mature or responsible enough yet to even think like that. Could she hide it because she's scared, yes but we have already laid the foundation for an open relationship and she knows she can come to us with anything and we will help her and do whats best for her. In a few years, she will surely think she knows whats best but as it stands now (at 13) she still believes mom and dad do.
Truth is I'm not worried about it, ever since she saw a video of a woman giving birth in bio class, she has already proclaimed "I am never doing that"

 

[Colleen27]

Also pregnancies in young girls are often the result of incest or force. When I was working in the social work field I knew several girls (as young as 9 or 10) and their babies together in foster care because their pregnancies brought their abuse to light.

I was a teen parent myself and am aware of the stigma and the assumption that you must have been promiscuous to become pregnant. Being judged by everyone you come in contact with especially when they have no knowledge of your particular situation just adds to the stress a girl is already experiencing.

That's always my first thought too - statistics reflect a pretty clear relationship between age at first sexual activity and force/coercion. Many of the girls who get pregnant that young are either pregnant by their abusers or acting out sexually because of a history of abuse, and either way it is a tragedy for all involved.

IMO, they should be ashamed of themselves and looked down upon by society. Teen pregnancy has become all too commonplace and sometimes even glorified-shows like Secret Life, 16 and Pregnant, and Teen Mom have all sort of backfired-and girls are finding that the government and the father will pay for everything they need. A lot of the girls who have children at my high school dump the baby off with their mothers to take care of while they party. The most abhorrent thing is that whenever I complain, people frown on ME and tell me that it's not right to pick on such poor girls. What did I do?

It is easy to see it that way when you're on the outside looking in but I've yet to meet the teenage mother who doesn't feel the stigma. I had my oldest at 18 and dealing with the world has never been easy, from the OB who recommended a c-section because "girls your age usually can't handle labor" to teachers who wrote off DS's reading problems because they assumed that since I was young I didn't provide an adequate preschool environment for him (turns out he's dyslexic, just like my father & grandfather; I ultimately had to pay for a private evaluation to convince the school to start the testing process). Forget about playgroups and other "mom" activities; no one wants the teenage mom to be part of any of that, and it is very hard to make "mom" friends because all anyone sees is your age, never your personality. Now maybe all of that is different in the places where teen pregnancy is more common, but for the handful of teens who got pregnant in the community where I grew up and the pregnant teens I've volunteered with in the area where we lived until recently the experience is not positive or supportive.

And as far as the govt or the father paying for everything, that's a joke. Most of the single moms I know, whether they got pregnant as teens or older, don't get child support regularly enough to depend upon it. And underage teens in most cases cannot qualify for anything other than medical assistance unless their family is poor enough to qualify to begin with; pregnant teens are required to live with a parent or guardian and that adult's income counts on assistance applications.

 

[laurie31]

Just wanted to say that you keep using the term "browbeat" but it doesn't really have to come down to that I am capable of having a rational discussion with my dd to get her to see why there is only one right decision at that age. I don't need to use intimidation and I certainly don't need to tie her up and drag her to the clinic either

Only one? I'm glad my bio grandmother didn't see it that way.

 

[luvmy3]

Only one? I'm glad my bio grandmother didn't see it that way.

Yes, for my dd at age 13. I don't pretend to know the right answer for anyone else including you and yours

 

[DaParkers]

Just wanted to say that you keep using the term "browbeat" but it doesn't really have to come down to that I am capable of having a rational discussion with my dd to get her to see why there is only one right decision at that age. I don't need to use intimidation and I certainly don't need to tie her up and drag her to the clinic either

Think about this. If you were that influential, then she wouldn't be pregnant. If she didn't do what you thought was best after the "rational" discussion about sex, why would she now? Hypothetically speaking, of course.

P.S. I didn't suggest you keep the original post to yourself because I don't like it, but because it was a controversial topic. But, after thinking about it, I should not have posted that. There are probably a few that don't like me because of my stance on a few topics, so It would be hypocritical of me to suggest you be quiet.

 

[luvmy3]

Except really you can't make that decision for her, unless she agrees to co-operate with you. If she keeps her pregnancy a secret from you, or if she tells the doctor that she doesn't want an abortion, you're out of luck. One way or another, she's making her own choices.

She can even choose to go into foster care, and someone else will drive her to her doctor's appointments.

You are correct Magpie, in this country it appears that it is illegal to force your minor child to have an abortion. However, I'm not sure what legally constitutes 'force'.

 

[luvmy3]

Think about this. If you were that influential, then she wouldn't be pregnant. If she didn't do what you thought was best after the "rational" discussion about sex, why would she now? Hypothetically speaking, of course.

P.S. I didn't suggest you keep the original post to yourself because I don't like it, but because it was a controversial topic. But, after thinking about it, I should not have posted that. There are probably a few that don't like me because of my stance on a few topics, so It would be hypocritical of me to suggest you be quiet.

Honestly I don't worry about my dd having unprotected sex and getting pregnant at 13 because of what we have and do talk about. She knows exactly how we feel and we know how she feels (now). I'm not naive though, I know she is influenced by her friends and peer pressure is a very strong thing for a young girl. All I can do is hope that she keeps us in the back of her mind and makes the right decisions, and if she doesn't, that she knows she can come to us and be open and honest.

I appreciate your last comment. I also think it has opened up the discussion and it has been very civil (which is sometimes very foreign on The DIS )

 

[Magpie]

Honestly I don't worry about my dd having unprotected sex and getting pregnant at 13 because of what we have and do talk about. She knows exactly how we feel and we know how she feels (now). I'm not naive though, I know she is influenced by her friends and peer pressure is a very strong thing for a young girl. All I can do is hope that she keeps us in the back of her mind and makes the right decisions, and if she doesn't, that she knows she can come to us and be open and honest.

I appreciate your last comment. I also think it has opened up the discussion and it has been very civil (which is sometimes very foreign on The DIS )

Yes, from what you've said it really doesn't sound like you have to worry too much about your dd getting pregnant, based on your relationship with her.

My mother really didn't have to worry about me, either, and I'm sure she knew it. It just set me back on my heels quite a bit, when I asked her, "What if I got pregnant?" and she got all high-handed and dictatorial in her answer.

Because of that, I've handled the talk differently with my daughter. I've discussed different scenarios and the consequences of various decisions, instead of laying down the law. But honestly, it's all very theoretical at this point. She's 15, and while she likes boys enough to join the math club ("It's almost all boys, mom!" ), she says dating is too much trouble. She tells me she'll think about it when she gets to University. We'll see if she sticks to that!

 

[WDWJonasGirl]

IS PREGNANT!! She is almost 13 or may have just turned 13!!!

We found out today. Showchoir camp started today and some of the kids didn't show up. This particular child's mom is one of our officers and the teacher was telling me that she was worried because "Amy" didn't show and one of the other girls said that "Amy isn't going to be able to do Showchoir". A week ago all was well so we were very concerned.

The girl that spoke up just texted dd and told her that "Amy" is pregnant.

Our little school hasn't really had this happen before, or if it did the girl stopped coming to school and no one really knew why. She is only going into the 8th grade.

I guess tonight will be another long talk session for me and dd.

I can't believe this This must be scary

 

[bumbershoot]

.... one of the other girls said that "Amy isn't going to be able to do Showchoir".

The girl that spoke up just texted dd and told her that "Amy" is pregnant.

Is there more confirmation than a text from a fellow student?


My senior year of HS I had one main friend (my other friends were distancing themselves b/c I had the audacity to date boys that asked me out instead of telling the boys that someone else had called dibs on them), and, well...she was so desperate for attention that she made up at least 3 pregnancies during high school. Big huge sob story to whatever main friend she had at the time. Got lots and lots of sympathy, then suddenly no baby was EVER mentioned...until the next "omg I'm pregnant" moment with a friend.

She even did it to me my freshman year of college. Had a baby on the way (while snorting some white substance up from her parents' coffee table), will you be godmother, blah blah blah...then...nothing ever said again.


If people can make it up about themselves, some random other 13 year old could be making it up as well.

My birthmom was pregnant and married at 15! She had another child at 16. One of her kids had kids at 16 so by 32 she was a grandmother---the grandchild had a child at 16 so now by 48 she was a great grandmother.....it didn't stop there though---that great grandchild had a child at 18 so at 66 she was a great great grandmother! Nothing like a cycle repeating itself over and over and over!!!

A friend from elementary school on had a family like that. Made for some AMAZING reunions and pictures, and they all definitely had the support of one another. My friend got to nearly 19...was 4 months along at graduation... From her FB page it doesn't seem that her daughters followed along in the family tradition though.



My mom managed to instill a HEALTHY dose of absolute mortifying embarrassment about the whole *getting nekkid with a boy* thing. Not sure how. But every time I even smooched a boy I had the strong feeling that my mom KNEW about it, and I'd get embarrassed and end the date. I was a senior in college before I was able to shrug that feeling off of me!

I also had a very strong sense of "I don't want to do anything that would make me make decisions, until I KNOW what those decisions would be". So...no pregnancy behaviors until I KNEW what I would do and HOW I would do it. How would I raise a baby? How could I give it up for adoption? How could I do the other option? Most importantly, *how could I tell my mom*?????"

Until those questions were solidly answered in my mind I didn't go forward with boy-girl things.

Not sure how I came up with that, but it served me well!

 

[luvsJack]

bumbershoot, yes it has been confirmed by the girls step-mom. She sent me a text yesterday. I wasn't really sure how to respond as we are not really friends, we just work together in Show choir. Amy and dd are friends with show choir and hang out some at school but that is as far as it goes. So I just told her to let me know if I could do anything or call me if she needs to talk.



On the whole, forcing someone to have an abortion thing--I have a friend from high school that was forced to have an abortion and still has emotional problem now 30 years later. She was never able to bond with the child she had later on and now HE also has some emtotional problems. Now, I don't know what they meant by "forced"; the doctor may have never known there was ever a question of what she wanted. She was 15 or 16.

13? I just really don't know anymore. I have always been against abortion, but to think of MY dd being pregnant when she has never even started high school and having to deal with morning sickness, weight gain, ankles swelling, back aches, and then delivering a baby all while in the 8th grade? It would be very, very hard to expect her to go through all of that.

 

[Silly Little Pixie]

13? I just really don't know anymore. I have always been against abortion, but to think of MY dd being pregnant when she has never even started high school and having to deal with morning sickness, weight gain, ankles swelling, back aches, and then delivering a baby all while in the 8th grade? It would be very, very hard to expect her to go through all of that.

I'm with you. I brought this up to my DH... our DD is 14, what would we do? His gut instinct said no way, no abortion, we could help her... while mine went to the same thoughts you had. Maybe because I have been pregnant and given birth, I know what a young girl would be in for. And for what the PP said about not being accepted by other moms, when she had her son at 18. It's easy for me to say "I'd never have an abortion or condone one for my child," when frankly I've never had to be in a situation that wasn't a planned, welcomed pregnancy. This has reinforced for me the importance of not judging other people's decisions on this...just be grateful that it's not my cross to bear.