5th gate or not Disney? Pic

[chartle]

I'm going to preface this by saying that I have NO hard attendance numbers to back up my theory, but...

I don't think this is the situation at Disney at all. I don't think attendance numbers are necessarily growing due to the addition of resort rooms. Rather, more guests who would come to Disney anyway are now staying on site. And THIS is Disney's goal right now. It is MUCH more cost-effective to find ways to entice current customers to spend more of their money at Disney than it is to attract new customers.

Hence the need for free dining promos almost year round. A few years ago it was maybe 4 weeks in the early fall during the hurricane season.

 

[chartle]

One park was more than enough for people back when Disneyland and WDW opened, but that changed over time. So to say there will "NEVER be a fifth gate EVER" is just short sighted.

Disneys goal is to keep people there as long as they can and to get them to come back multiple times, and once the economy bounces back I wager that's exactly what they'll try for.

I agree that five parks and two water parks would be a lot of try and cover in a vacation, and that's the whole point. Disney doesn't want you to cover everything in one trip. They want you to miss some stuff so you'll have a reason to come back again later. Their goal isn't to keep their offerings comfortably within the range of an average family vacation.

As for timeline, I'd agree that we won't see a fifth park anytime soon. The economy just isn't supportive enough for it yet. However once things change (whether that be in five, ten, or fifteen years) I bet you we'll see a fifth park.

But to get back on topic, no way that's a fifth park. Disney is a public company with shareholders. They wouldn't be able to keep a project that big and risky a secret.

Its not short sited its how things work these days. Adding a fifth park only spreads out the same number of people over more parks costing extra money driving up ticket prices.

Spending a billion dollars now or in the future in FL will not make them any more money building DVC or building overseas will.

As for not doing everything and bringing people back Its been posted that 70% of all guests are there for the first time and I think most think it will be their only trip. Giving them too much to do in a one week vacation is not going to lure them back just stress them out.

I have posted this before, there is a limit to what can be done in a week. The only way it will happen is if Disney can add a day or maybe 2 to the week. That way a week's vacation will be longer.

Also they have already built a 5th, 6th, 7nth and 8th park, just in Japan , France, Hong Kong and China. Just like when they knew Disneyland wasn't enough and expanded East. As a family we would have never traveled to CA to go to Disneyland.

 

[Rosanne]

I totally think they need to stick in a duplicate TSM ride in the backlot area of DHS. It's really annoying to arrive 30 minutes after opening and get a FP for 7:20 p.m. or else wait in line for 100 minutes for a ride that only lasts a few minutes (albeit fun minutes). If they had a duplicate second one in the back of the park it wouldn't cost them that much and it would allow more people to ride it.
(Yes, I know I could have made rope drop and gotten an earlier time but my wish still stands... a second TSM ride!)

 

[queenofpainting]

I would love to see a fifth park opened later on if it has a solid theme, but I agree that Disney should focus on the current parks and creating new attractions or fixing the outdated ones.

Personally, considering AK is younger than I am (I'm not that old!) and that it's not open late, I can currently comfortably fit in all the attractions, but with the Avatar land in development, I think that will improve things in terms of things to do. I can't really complain. Honestly, I love AK and HS more than the other two parks and find myself having the most fun there. I love nostalgia and many things supposedly intended "for children," and yet I feel there are too many kiddie rides at MK that I just don't find incredibly appealing, especially not for regular visits. This is, of course, fine for people with children, but not so much for me, as I want a more engaging experience from an attraction than sitting through a dark ride featuring stiff animatronics. And Epcot is just soooo outdated that it's easily a "half-day" park for me, and I feel like it needs more work than any other park, especially because many attractions will continue to feel more outdated over time.

 

[ygracey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chartle
There will never be a fifth gate ever. There is just not enough time in the standard family vacation to have the need for a fifth gate and I don't see vacations getting any longer any time soon.

Well, it's funny that Walt had a space for a fifth gate in the master plan for WDW before he died. I don't know how you can say never.

 

[MrRob]

Its not short sited its how things work these days. Adding a fifth park only spreads out the same number of people over more parks costing extra money driving up ticket prices.

Spending a billion dollars now or in the future in FL will not make them any more money building DVC or building overseas will.

As for not doing everything and bringing people back Its been posted that 70% of all guests are there for the first time and I think most think it will be their only trip. Giving them too much to do in a one week vacation is not going to lure them back just stress them out.

Do you understand though that your entire set of logic for that post can easily have been applied to WDWs 2nd, 3rd and 4th gate? In fact I recall "spreading out the number of people" being a concern when Epcot and MGM opened. Alas it didn't hurt the Magic Kingdoms attendance.

Have you considered that 70% of all guests might think it'll be their only trip because they think they can do it all in one trip, and that if it became clear that they couldn't, with the addition of more parks, that they wouldn't think it'd be their only trip?

This idea that a vacation must fit within one week and can only be done once is entirely arbitrary and yes, it's short sighted to say that it will NEVER happen.

Will it happen soon? Not likely (perhaps the phrase you were looking for originally) as there are too many roadblocks that make it a poor business decision. However will it happen one day in the future? Entirely possible, and I'd go as far as to say likely.

 

[chartle]

Do you understand though that your entire set of logic for that post can easily have been applied to WDWs 2nd, 3rd and 4th gate? In fact I recall "spreading out the number of people" being a concern when Epcot and MGM opened. Alas it didn't hurt the Magic Kingdoms attendance.

Have you considered that 70% of all guests might think it'll be their only trip because they think they can do it all in one trip, and that if it became clear that they couldn't, with the addition of more parks, that they wouldn't think it'd be their only trip?

This idea that a vacation must fit within one week and can only be done once is entirely arbitrary and yes, it's short sighted to say that it will NEVER happen.

Will it happen soon? Not likely (perhaps the phrase you were looking for originally) as there are too many roadblocks that make it a poor business decision. However will it happen one day in the future? Entirely possible, and I'd go as far as to say likely.

OK I was a little heavy handed with the NEVER. And now that I look back I probably shouldn't have posted at all but hey I did it sorry.

But my logic has nothing to do with why they built the 2nd, 3rd and 4th gate. They did that to expand their presence in FL and to squeeze as much time as they could from an average vacation. Same reason why they built the two water parks and Pleasure Island and started Magical Express.

Everything has limits. I see four main limits to building a 5th park.

• Space - Well Walt took care of that when he bought a a ton of swamp land in FL.
  
• Workforce - There are only so many people that can work for just over minimum wage and have a good living. Some have said the Orlando area is pretty well tapped out for these kinds of workers. They could ship them in but that has its own issues.
  
• Number of people Visiting - Probably also tapped out, I can't see Disney doing much more advertising and since they make more money building parks over seas there are less foreigners to come here. So if more people don't come you are just spending out the existing guests driving up costs for things like labor and utilities.
  
• Length of a Vacation in the US Today aka the Biggy - Growing up my father worked for the local electric company and got three to 4 weeks paid vacation a year. We always took a vacation the last week of July - first week in August. There are very few families that can take more than week now if they can even get a full week.
  
  Most families can have 5 maybe 6 full days in the parks. 5 parks is too many to visit in that time frame and a lot of people want to see it all to get their monies worth.

Like I said, NEVER was too dramatic but I don't see them building a new park unless something really radical happens and its just not a good economy. We would have to do something like pass legislation that would reverse this. (and no I'm not saying that I support or don't support a law just that something radical would have to happen)

http://www.epi.org/publication/webfeatures_snapshots_20050824/

 

[SunnyP4Disney]

It's the new Four Seasons located at Golden Oak...

 

[One for the Mouse]

When I read "Fifth Gate" and saw that photo this is what I thought of...

 

[RalphinSC]

I know we've done delved here, but I do find it interesting and would like to add my input:

Things I would like to see done before considering adding a 5th gate:

Magic Kingdom

-refurbing Jungle Cruise back into it's old glory
-Replacing Stitch and Tommorowland Speedway (Monster's Inc E-ticket perhaps)
-finishing all current expansion planned
-making use of currently unused areas such as Adventureland Veranda, Tomorrowland Terrace, and Diamond Horseshoe.
-redoing Tom Sawyer Island
-Forget bringing back Spectromagic. Can we have a NEW nighttime parade like the Dreamlights parade over in Tokyo Disneyland.

Epcot

-Imagination Pavillion is a mess. Bring back the original "Journey Into" with Figment and Dreamfinder. Make the Second Flor usable again.
-Two other completely empty pavillions that could use attractions.
-World Showcase. So much could be done here. Many of the pavillions were originally planned with rides, only two actually made it. Would also be nice to see Brazil or Spain in the showcase.
-Let's just do away with the corporate or goverment sponsorship in this park. It has killed meaningful expansion and innovation. Future World is a train wreck.
-Soarin. HD video was invented several years ago. Let's see if we can get it into this ride and create a more inclusive video aside from "Soaring over California" while you are at it.

Animal Kingdom

-Avatar expansion or ANY expansion would be nice. This park needs another E-ticket plus more attractions in general.
-Could use a nighttime parade to keep people in the park past 4pm. I understand why a fireworks show or a World of Color type show.

Hollywood Studios

-an expansion of Pixar Place into the backlot
-an expansion of Star wars themed attractions. Perhaps a Lucasland
-realize the plans for the original Muppet studios idea.
-definitely more family attractions to take the stress off of TSMania
-a new daytime parade. ANYTHING over what they have now.
-move the hat to the front of the park. restore the original siteline and theme to the Golden Age of Hollywood section of the park.



More attractions = more space = more capacity = lower wait times

MK "eats" guest so well because they have so many attractions.

 

[JennaDeeDooDah]

I know we've done delved here, but I do find it interesting and would like to add my input:

Things I would like to see done before considering adding a 5th gate:

Magic Kingdom

-refurbing Jungle Cruise back into it's old glory
-Replacing Stitch and Tommorowland Speedway (Monster's Inc E-ticket perhaps)
-finishing all current expansion planned
-making use of currently unused areas such as Adventureland Veranda, Tomorrowland Terrace, and Diamond Horseshoe.
-redoing Tom Sawyer Island
-Forget bringing back Spectromagic. Can we have a NEW nighttime parade like the Dreamlights parade over in Tokyo Disneyland.

Epcot

-Imagination Pavillion is a mess. Bring back the original "Journey Into" with Figment and Dreamfinder. Make the Second Flor usable again.
-Two other completely empty pavillions that could use attractions.
-World Showcase. So much could be done here. Many of the pavillions were originally planned with rides, only two actually made it. Would also be nice to see Brazil or Spain in the showcase.
-Let's just do away with the corporate or goverment sponsorship in this park. It has killed meaningful expansion and innovation. Future World is a train wreck.
-Soarin. HD video was invented several years ago. Let's see if we can get it into this ride and create a more inclusive video aside from "Soaring over California" while you are at it.

Animal Kingdom

-Avatar expansion or ANY expansion would be nice. This park needs another E-ticket plus more attractions in general.
-Could use a nighttime parade to keep people in the park past 4pm. I understand why a fireworks show or a World of Color type show.

Hollywood Studios

-an expansion of Pixar Place into the backlot
-an expansion of Star wars themed attractions. Perhaps a Lucasland
-realize the plans for the original Muppet studios idea.
-definitely more family attractions to take the stress off of TSMania
-a new daytime parade. ANYTHING over what they have now.
-move the hat to the front of the park. restore the original siteline and theme to the Golden Age of Hollywood section of the park.



More attractions = more space = more capacity = lower wait times

MK "eats" guest so well because they have so many attractions.

Personally, I would love an Israel Pavilion, as well.

 

[Raenstoirm]

I know we've done delved here, but I do find it interesting and would like to add my input:

Things I would like to see done before considering adding a 5th gate:

Magic Kingdom

-refurbing Jungle Cruise back into it's old glory
-Replacing Stitch and Tommorowland Speedway (Monster's Inc E-ticket perhaps)
-finishing all current expansion planned
-making use of currently unused areas such as Adventureland Veranda, Tomorrowland Terrace, and Diamond Horseshoe.
-redoing Tom Sawyer Island
-Forget bringing back Spectromagic. Can we have a NEW nighttime parade like the Dreamlights parade over in Tokyo Disneyland.

Epcot

-Imagination Pavillion is a mess. Bring back the original "Journey Into" with Figment and Dreamfinder. Make the Second Flor usable again.
-Two other completely empty pavillions that could use attractions.
-World Showcase. So much could be done here. Many of the pavillions were originally planned with rides, only two actually made it. Would also be nice to see Brazil or Spain in the showcase.
-Let's just do away with the corporate or goverment sponsorship in this park. It has killed meaningful expansion and innovation. Future World is a train wreck.
-Soarin. HD video was invented several years ago. Let's see if we can get it into this ride and create a more inclusive video aside from "Soaring over California" while you are at it.

Animal Kingdom

-Avatar expansion or ANY expansion would be nice. This park needs another E-ticket plus more attractions in general.
-Could use a nighttime parade to keep people in the park past 4pm. I understand why a fireworks show or a World of Color type show.

Hollywood Studios

-an expansion of Pixar Place into the backlot
-an expansion of Star wars themed attractions. Perhaps a Lucasland
-realize the plans for the original Muppet studios idea.
-definitely more family attractions to take the stress off of TSMania
-a new daytime parade. ANYTHING over what they have now.
-move the hat to the front of the park. restore the original siteline and theme to the Golden Age of Hollywood section of the park.



More attractions = more space = more capacity = lower wait times

MK "eats" guest so well because they have so many attractions.

I agree with you completely, except one thing...the hat. There is nothing wrong with the hat. Love it or hate it, it does "fit." Come now how many small little middle American towns have a castle at the end of main st???
But I digress, they cant move the hat because of the fight they had with the Mann group that owns Grauman's Chinese Theatre. I think technically they are not supposed to have the building at all, but they werent forced to tear it down.

 

[chartle]

Well, it's funny that Walt had a space for a fifth gate in the master plan for WDW before he died. I don't know how you can say never.

Please read my other post but I have never heard that Walt planed 5 parks, only 2. Also that was 50 years ago, plans change.

If you told Walt 50 years ago that there would be a Disney park in China he would look at you like you had lobsters crawling out of your ears.

 

[chartle]

I agree with you completely, except one thing...the hat. There is nothing wrong with the hat. Love it or hate it, it does "fit." Come now how many small little middle American towns have a castle at the end of main st???
But I digress, they cant move the hat because of the fight they had with the Mann group that owns Grauman's Chinese Theatre. I think technically they are not supposed to have the building at all, but they werent forced to tear it down.

The whole we had to cover the Theater is an urban legend. I think started by people who can't understand why Disney did such a bonehead move and cover up such a structure with a pin store.

http://www.yesterland.com/removehat.html

 

[chartle]

1. -Soarin. HD video was invented several years ago.

2. Let's see if we can get it into this ride and create a more inclusive video aside from "Soaring over California" while you are at it.

Since I'm here anyway

1. Digital Imax is still a few years away. There is no digital system today that can come close to the "Resolution" of the current analog film.

2. Ok

 

[Raenstoirm]

The whole we had to cover the Theater is an urban legend. I think started by people who can't understand why Disney did such a bonehead move and cover up such a structure with a pin store.

http://www.yesterland.com/removehat.html

The link is not totally correct. Keep in mind the theater in WDW is called the "Chinese Theater." Disney tried to get the rights to use "Grauman's Chinese Theatre" and were denied back when the park was being built. Ive never heard the "cant take photographs" rumor as to why the hat exists, but I do concur that such a rumor is just crazy. But I will point out that Mann did not like the theater existing in WDW at all, so I do believe there was some legal issues during the sale.