Opinion Poll: Should EPCOT secede from Disney World?

liquidbase said:

You've got a point that EPCOT could close without Disney. On the other hand, what about other Orlando attractions like Holy Land Experience? It has still been in buisness even while selling one, two day non-multiple park tickets. Unless park size is an issue, EPCOT could still operate in this fashion.

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You picked a bizarro example that I'm not gonna touch with a 1,000 ft pole

Boardwalk and baseball, splendid china, other attempts have failed badly in Orlando.

lockedoutlogic said:

You picked a bizarro example that I'm not gonna touch with a 1,000 ft pole

Boardwalk and baseball, splendid china, other attempts have failed badly in Orlando.

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Was my example offensive? If so, I extremely apologize. I was just pointing out a fact.

liquidbase said:

Was my example offensive? If so, I extremely apologize. I was just pointing out a fact.

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Not offensive at all...

It's that holy land... And the 20 years or so trend it feeds Into In the US... Is hard to quantify or explain.

It's beyond me... We'll call it's buidling and success "immaculate construction" and leave it at that.

liquidbase said:

Was my example offensive? If so, I extremely apologize. I was just pointing out a fact.

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It is a religious organization that probably doesn't need to turn a profit. If I understand correctly, it is mostly static buildings with shows and actors doing reenactments. Not very costly. Many of the other parks in the Orlando area have gone under or are barely surviving. Epcot needs a huge support system and is very complex. It wouldn't last a year anywhere else.

I don't think that Epcot or DHS (in its present state) would survive. AK might but only if they market it as a zoo and quit charging quite so much. Zoos seem to usually do OK.

I posted this a couple of weeks ago on the Theme Park Attractions and Strategies forum but the readership is somewhat distinct on the forums so maybe you won't mind if I make the same point here.

The main reason why MK is so great and Epcot, DHS and DAK are so neglected is the discounted multi-day passes. It seems that a really good theme park needs to get about $100/day from each guest in order to exist. You have to offer a really solid chunk of entertainment - mostly excellent rides but also nice theming and great live shows - in order for anyone to drop that kind of money on you. That describes MK, Universal Studios, Islands of Adventure, SeaWorld and Busch Gardens Tampa.

Disney wants to get the entire week of your Florida vacation money so they built 4 parks plus other diversions in order to lock you in. They offer you discounted multi-day passes where at some point the additional days only cost you around $50/day (I'm not up on the latest prices but you get my meaning). They are essentially claiming that you get "4 great parks" (implicitly nearly equal in value) for only an average of maybe $75/day. But it turns out that you can't provide really solid entertainment for that amount of revenue, which is why Epcot, DHS and DAK are what they are ... or what they are becoming.

To counter the growing perception of the public that they would have more fun by shelling out the full $100/day and getting a really huge, entertaining theme park that actually has a full day's worth of fun, Disney is constantly trickling out rumors that "big things are coming". But they're locked into the discounted multi-day pass model and they can't afford to give you 4 great parks. So the "announcements" are mostly just vapors or rumors about "wait 'til D23" or "probably be announced at Star Wars Weekends", with no specific artwork, budget or dates. When their hand is forced and they can't tease any more and they really have to get out shovels, the schedule is really slow because they're obviously spreading out the capital expenditures over many quarters. Or they're using someone else's money, or they build a lot less than what they previously led the public to believe. Or all three.

I think that this trick of dribbling out "announcements" that are really just vapors works pretty well with the average public. They seem to get their information at third-hand, so when they're planning a vacation for next year, they have vague ideas that there's going to some Really Excellent New Stuff in the parks ... having to do with Frozen, Star Wars, Pixar, etc. But they're actually going to get a pretty lame video/AA presentation of Frozen in the wrong park, and the Star Wars and Pixar stuff won't see anything started until maybe 2 years after their planned visit and there won't be anything worth calling a "new land" until, heaven knows, 2021 or something. If ever. And yes, the public really are that dumb. Someone whom I had previously been chatting with about Florida vacations once hit me with what they thought was a bombshell - "Did you hear that Disney is building a new theme park?" (breathlessly) "It's called Disney Springs!"

So to return to the OP's question, I think Epcot could secede ... if it became a $100/day park and made the investment in rides and entertainment to match that revenue. It has a lot of potential. FutureWorld is in a kind of space that overlaps with Ripley's, SeaWorld and Cape Canaveral tours. World Showcase is a kind of super-Citywalk with an international flavor. But long as Epcot is part of WDW it's going to continue evolving into 1/2 a theme park for 1/2 price admission ... plus extra-revenue experiences like Food and Wine and corporate rentals.

A very informed and accurate analysis...

But I don't look at it that they are "sacrificing" there pricing to provide 4 parks +...

I look at it as they are not reinvesting the ridiculous gift shop cash register receipts back into the operation to continue to build/maintain an unparalleled quality experience...

But rather drawing them out to pump a bloated stock price and support less profitable components of a corporate monolith.

And you have cheap suits with Inapropriate amounts of tax free corporate stock options to ensure this bad approach will persist.

Which is why Disney should be private...the owner makes a handsome return...no pressure to shave the corners at all times...
Wishes, dreams, magic...

People often comment that Disney could have done a lot with the money invested in MDE. Those neglected parks could have been way less neglected. So there is (was) the money to invest. They just chose to follow a different path.

Epcot COULD be a stand-alone pricey park but that would require investment. Investment that seems to never come nowadays.

No offense but this is a dumb poll. I absolutely love Epcot just the way it is now. The countries are amazing and it has the best blend of cuisine in WDW. I dont see a problem

Astridia said:

Maybe the stores would be stocked with merchandise from their countries instead of Mickey merchandise. I would love to shop, if I could find things to buy.

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Have you noticed no matter which country you go into you see "made in China"

Gosh I can remember when I bought a sweater in Norway it was made in Norway. Likewise for the other countries.

manning said:

Have you noticed no matter which country you go into you see "made in China"

Gosh I can remember when I bought a sweater in Norway it was made in Norway. Likewise for the other countries.

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This to me is perhaps the biggest travesty of management in EPCOT...because merch is so high profit that converting it to shanghai sweatshop offerings was fixing something that wasnt broke.

They just couldn't resist, huh?

NuttyDisneyDad said:

No offense but this is a dumb poll. I absolutely love Epcot just the way it is now. The countries are amazing and it has the best blend of cuisine in WDW. I dont see a problem

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EPCOT is still my favorite park...but I think it's hard to argue that it hasn't declined some...at least for many.

There's no one solution to that problem...I just hope they haven't abandoned it completely.

This is more about the frozen thing than anything - I suspect.

I'm not sure "cuisine" fits either. But I'm a tough critic there.

Epcot: a few rides slightly sort of related to the "future" and "science", an aquarium, and an outdoor mall you pay $90+ a day to visit.

While I didn't attend opening day of Epcot on October 1, 1982 (while living in NJ, I didn't even know it was being built), I did go during the mid 80s, and had the opportunity to go on its 25th Anniversary, October 1, 2007, as a Florida resident passholder.

That day, to say the least, was magical and emotional. I heard several speeches, including one from Marty Sklar, listened to the original music of the park (especially enjoying "Listen to the Land"), and watched as water from each of the 11 countries' lakes or rivers was poured at the same time into the fountain. Many Epcot fans standing around me had tears in their eyes. One even had her original ticket from opening day. I took hundreds and hundreds of pictures and lots of video, and looked at the timeline and mini expo (which has since closed) containing items/posters/uniforms/videos from Epcot's early days. I bought as many Epcot 25th anniversary pins as I could.

While I am an Epcot fan for sure, loving the mix between technology and world culture, I've decided not to renew my annual pass, which expires on 04/30. It has simply morphed into something that hardly resembles Walt's vision, in my opinion, and has become too commercial.

I rode Soarin', saw Turtle Talk with Crush, and watched Impressions de France for the last (and probably the 200th) time, still so inspired by the film despite showing its age (Citroën CX on Paris boulevard, for example) that I decided to get a Kir Impérial at the outside kiosk, and then a quiche lorraine (they were out of pissaladière) in the patisserie/boulangerie, enjoying a wonderful conversation in French, while my quiche was being reheated, with the young French gal behind the counter who had a few more months in Epcot before turning to France. As I sat down next to the fountain outside, enjoying every bite of my quiche, I watched Disney guests as they walked by, knowing it might be a long time before I do this again.

Epcot, in my opinion, should be about technological advances and world culture, not movie tie-ins. There's plenty of room for that in the other 3 parks.

FlightlessDuck said:

Epcot: a few rides slightly sort of related to the "future" and "science", an aquarium, and an outdoor mall you play $90+ a day to visit.

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Well that's the "hard line" take...
But I can't entirely disagree with it.

FlightlessDuck said:

Epcot: a few rides slightly sort of related to the "future" and "science", an aquarium, and an outdoor mall you play $90+ a day to visit.

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That's true. The aquarium at the Seas pavilion still preserves a science/futuristic look. It's just that it seems questionable for the adjoining ride to have clamshells rather than mini-subs as ride vehicles.

Epcotfan64 said:

While I didn't attend opening day of Epcot on October 1, 1982 (while living in NJ, I didn't even know it was being built), I did go during the mid 80s, and had the opportunity to go on its 25th Anniversary, October 1, 2007, as a Florida resident passholder.

That day, to say the least, was magical and emotional. I heard several speeches, including one from Marty Sklar, listened to the original music of the park (especially enjoying "Listen to the Land"), and watched as water from each of the 11 countries' lakes or rivers was poured at the same time into the fountain. Many Epcot fans standing around me had tears in their eyes. One even had her original ticket from opening day. I took hundreds and hundreds of pictures and lots of video, and looked at the timeline and mini expo (which has since closed) containing items/posters/uniforms/videos from Epcot's early days. I bought as many Epcot 25th anniversary pins as I could.

While I am an Epcot fan for sure, loving the mix between technology and world culture, I've decided not to renew my annual pass, which expires on 04/30. It has simply morphed into something that hardly resembles Walt's vision, in my opinion, and has become too commercial.

I rode Soarin', saw Turtle Talk with Crush, and watched Impressions de France for the last (and probably the 200th) time, still so inspired by the film despite showing its age (Citroën CX on Paris boulevard, for example) that I decided to get a Kir Impérial at the outside kiosk, and then a quiche lorraine (they were out of pissaladière) in the patisserie/boulangerie, enjoying a wonderful conversation in French, while my quiche was being reheated, with the young French gal behind the counter who had a few more months in Epcot before turning to France. As I sat down next to the fountain outside, enjoying every bite of my quiche, I watched Disney guests as they walked by, knowing it might be a long time before I do this again.

Epcot, in my opinion, should be about technological advances and world culture, not movie tie-ins. There's plenty of room for that in the other 3 parks.

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Your post struck a chord with me. I've been feeling more and more like this and it saddens me. It's so different and yes, humdrum now. Change is good but I always think that change should be for the better and not just for the sake of change (or for a quick profit).

Besides, if they ever decide to mingle water from other nations again it will be very difficult to get water from Arendelle. That is just a bizarre and sad thought.

I'd say many of the Epcot problems are extremly deep. The buildings look terribly outdated, space is underutilized, and many attractions aren't extremly relevant to the theme.

I can't help but feel like to some extent a project like Epcot shouldn't be in the hands of Imagineering. Epcot isn't like anything Imagineering has done recently. Their distaste for MyMagic+ proves that they're not in touch with technology movments. The likes of Apple and Google aren't even in the same world as Imagineering.

DDLand said:

I'd say many of the Epcot problems are extremly deep. The buildings look terribly outdated, space is underutilized, and many attractions aren't extremly relevant to the theme.

I can't help but feel like to some extent a project like Epcot shouldn't be in the hands of Imagineering. Epcot isn't like anything Imagineering has done recently. Their distaste for MyMagic+ proves that they're not in touch with technology movments. The likes of Apple and Google aren't even in the same world as Imagineering.

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I think imagineering has been doing some great work with animatronics tho. The projection mapping getting extremely better with every project they do.

DDLand said:

I'd say many of the Epcot problems are extremly deep. The buildings look terribly outdated, space is underutilized, and many attractions aren't extremly relevant to the theme

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The part about buildings being outdated reminds me. I've been seeing reports on the internet about dolphins in The Seas pavilion's aquarium being mistreated due to neglect of maintenance of the aquarium tanks and that there have been online petition movements trying to put an end to it. An EPCOT secession would at least free those dolphins if not upgrade the tanks.