FP+... who hates it

MrInfinity · Mar 28, 2015

wisblue said:
It is not hard to see how it would have been possible for SOME guests at MK to get 8 FPs in a day, or even more, by making most efficient use of the system to get a new FP as soon as the window opened up. And, of course, it was much easier to get more FPs when the crowds were lower and FP return times stayed closer to the distribution times.

But the simple math of the number of people in the park and the number of total FPs available dictates that only a minority of people could do it on the same day. Maybe I'm forgetting one or two, but I think the MK only had 7 FP attractions: the mountains, Buzz, Pooh, Pan, and Jungle Cruise. The number of FPs available for any attraction is, of course, a function of the ride's capacity and the percentage of that capacity allocated to FPs. Just for the sake of illustration, if each attraction had 15,000 FPs available in a day, the total for the 7 attractions would be 105,000.

Now, the average attendance at MK is about 50,000 and I have seen in some articles that on the busiest days it can reach 75,000. Even if that total FP capacity were 150,000, which is probably too high, that would translate to 3 FPs per person per day on an average day and only 2 on the busiest days. Even at the higher capacity of 150,000 FPs, fewer than 20,000 guests could get 8 FPs in a day, and that is if everyone else in the park gets none. Beecause there were obviously a lot of guests getting 1 or 2 or 3 FPs each, the number who could have gotten as many as 8 drops that much lower.

Nobody on this board knows exactly how many guests were getting 8 FPs a day, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was significantly less than 10% of all guests. The pure math says that more people were getting 3 or less per day than were getting more than 3.

I understand why the small minority that were getting 6-8 FPs per day are unhappy that Disney has derailed their gravy train. But, I have a much harder time understanding why they have trouble seeing why Disney put a different system in place to ensure that FPs would be distributed more evenly to all guests.

Yeah, I agree on your numbers. I just don't see why ppl are mad about getting Fast Passes to more people. This is good business sense. Sure, a small percentage (including me) pulled a bunch, but the vast majority pulled none or very few. Even tho it is to my personal disadvantage, I see why Disney World would rather 2 guests get 3 each than I get 6 and someone else get none. It is just the smart thing to do. You leverage your rides to benefit the most guests and to draw more guests. Not to ensure that a few guests can ride all day long w/ no waits while other guests get only standby.

MrInfinity · Mar 28, 2015

Cormoran said:
No, you can still waste FP's in the current system. If you decide not to use it and you don't cancel or change it. With Legacy, if I didn't use a FP, I usually gave them away. With FP+, I just let it expire, because "Giving it away" involves logging into the app and wasting battery life or standing in line at a Kiosk.

You can, but you can also not. With FP- if you chose not to use it, you take it home w you. With FP+ if you choose not to use it, you can take it home w you, or convert it to something else.

Giving them away is not a benefit. All you're doing then is making 1000 ppl in line wait for someone who wasn't in line. How is that good? That is essentially line cutting, to hand someone a FP ticket that they didn't plan for themselves. While you are helping that one party, you forget you are unintentionally hurting everyone else in line.

Cormoran · Mar 28, 2015

MrInfinity said:
You can, but you can also not. With FP- if you chose not to use it, you take it home w you. With FP+ if you choose not to use it, you can take it home w you, or convert it to something else.

Giving them away is not a benefit. All you're doing then is making 1000 ppl in line wait for someone who wasn't in line. How is that good? That is essentially line cutting, to hand someone a FP ticket that they didn't plan for themselves. While you are helping that one party, you forget you are unintentionally hurting everyone else in line.

Ok, I'm a selfish rotten person because I gave away my legacy FP's to someone else! I get it, NOT.

MrInfinity · Mar 28, 2015

duplicate

MrInfinity · Mar 28, 2015

Cormoran said:
Ok, I'm a selfish rotten person because I gave away my legacy FP's to someone else! I get it, NOT.

You go to such extremes! Never said that, just pointed out that by helping someone cut in line, you are hurting the other 1000 people in line. The transaction you created has a net of 0- benefit.

Maybe this will help you see it differently. If you could steal 1 penny from 1000 people in line, and then give $10 to a stranger as a random act of kindness, would you? The person getting the $10 would be so thankful, and the people losing the penny would never know or care.

Tarheel girl 1975 · Mar 28, 2015

Cormoran said:
No, you can still waste FP's in the current system. If you decide not to use it and you don't cancel or change it. With Legacy, if I didn't use a FP, I usually gave them away. With FP+, I just let it expire, because "Giving it away" involves logging into the app and wasting battery life or standing in line at a Kiosk.

Also, how many people are making throwaway FP+ for secondary rides at DHS or Epcot for early morning that they don't intend to use in the hopes of getting another Tier One FP after they finally use their third?

MrInfinity · Mar 28, 2015

Tarheel girl 1975 said:
Also, how many people are making throwaway FP+ for secondary rides at DHS or Epcot for early morning that they don't intend to use in the hopes of getting another Tier One FP after they finally use their third?

Who cares? There will be a small crowd that will attempt to game the system for extremely optimal results just like we did before. This is a natural path to explore for those folks. It's not common, it's just that same 10% or 1% crowd that figured out how to maximize FP- trying to do so again. That's what we should do, try to figure out how to make FP+ work optimally for us at the expense of "most guests" -- like we did with FP-. That's the whole point of the disboards right? To collectively figure out how to do better than the average guest, via strategizing amongst ourselves? Not to complain about how our edge is gone, but to figure out that next edge we will get.

Hokie2000 · Mar 28, 2015

Tarheel girl 1975 said:
Also, how many people are making throwaway FP+ for secondary rides at DHS or Epcot for early morning that they don't intend to use in the hopes of getting another Tier One FP after they finally use their third?

Yeah, I don't think reducing FP "waste" was a high priority. I ending up with unused paper FPs fairly often, but never gave it any thought until I read on these boards about giving them away. I think I only went through with it once or twice because I felt weird approaching strangers. Just a personality thing.

For me, both systems resulted in unused FPs, however the ability to change them on the app has reduced the amount that we don't use.

Jennytoon · Mar 28, 2015

Hokie2000 said:
For me, both systems resulted in unused FPs, however the ability to change them on the app has reduced the amount that we don't use.

I think this is the key point. In the old system, if you pulled a FP with a return time of 2PM and then decided to take a break from the parks mid-day, you had two choices, give it to someone else, or let it expire. In the same situation now, conceptually you have three -- release it, let it expire, or re-schedule it to something later in the day when you will be back in the parks.

Both the "give it to someone else" and the "let it go unused" options exist in both systems. It's the possibility of changing it to something that works better for you that is new.

Tarheel girl 1975 · Mar 28, 2015

wisblue said:
I think it is also a good illustration of why Disney might want to put a system in place that would distribute FPs more evenly and get them in the hands of people who actually wanted to use them instead of keeping them as souvenirs.

cakebaker said:
Again, a good example of why a new system was needed so badly. You got at least 8 per day, a lot of people got much less. You even managed to pull fp's for more than you wanted to ride while others were undoubtedly completely shut out. The ability to do that should be limited and now it is. You make think those others are just stupid while you are savvy and smart, but I doubt Disney wants their system based on winner take all.

cakebaker said:
There were certainly people who did the same thing at WDW, where it would cost people. The sport of gathering as many fp's as one possibly could in a day needed to be stopped.

MrInfinity said:
Who cares? There will be a small crowd that will attempt to game the system for extremely optimal results just like we did before. This is a natural path to explore for those folks. It's not common, it's just that same 10% or 1% crowd that figured out how to maximize FP- trying to do so again. That's what we should do, try to figure out how to make FP+ work optimally for us at the expense of "most guests" -- like we did with FP-. That's the whole point of the disboards right? To collectively figure out how to do better than the average guest, via strategizing amongst ourselves? Not to complain about how our edge is gone, but to figure out that next edge we will get.

I doesn't bother me, although I think one of the problems of MDE and FP+ is that it forces you to get 3. Wasting FP though seems to be a problem for other people.

We've always visited during slower times of they yea. We would usually pull multiple FP for headliners. With the exception of TSMM, most of the rides didn't run out of FP until late afternoon/ early evening.

Tarheel girl 1975 · Mar 28, 2015

Jennytoon said:
I think this is the key point. In the old system, if you pulled a FP with a return time of 2PM and then decided to take a break from the parks mid-day, you had two choices, give it to someone else, or let it expire. In the same situation now, conceptually you have three -- release it, let it expire, or re-schedule it to something later in the day when you will be back in the parks.

Both the "give it to someone else" and the "let it go unused" options exist in both systems. It's the possibility of changing it to something that works better for you that is new.

But if your goal is to get another Tier 1 attraction you can't reschedule it.

Angel Ariel · Mar 28, 2015

MrInfinity said:
I just don't see why ppl are mad about getting Fast Passes to more people.

Not liking FP+ is not necessarily equivalent to being "mad about getting Fast Passes to more people."

Cormoran · Mar 28, 2015

MrInfinity said:
You go to such extremes! Never said that, just pointed out that by helping someone cut in line, you are hurting the other 1000 people in line. The transaction you created has a net of 0- benefit.

Maybe this will help you see it differently. If you could steal 1 penny from 1000 people in line, and then give $10 to a stranger as a random act of kindness, would you? The person getting the $10 would be so thankful, and the people losing the penny would never know or care.

I don't agree with your logic. What difference did it make if the person who pulled the Legacy FP or someone else got in line? :confused3

No cutting. Really didn't matter. I don't understand some of the reasons you employ to defend FP+. I honestly think some of the benefits you cite are not any different from Legacy.

Cormoran · Mar 28, 2015

Jennytoon said:
I think this is the key point. In the old system, if you pulled a FP with a return time of 2PM and then decided to take a break from the parks mid-day, you had two choices, give it to someone else, or let it expire. In the same situation now, conceptually you have three -- release it, let it expire, or re-schedule it to something later in the day when you will be back in the parks.

Both the "give it to someone else" and the "let it go unused" options exist in both systems. It's the possibility of changing it to something that works better for you that is new.

Totally agree, but I wouldn't characterize giving a Legacy FP away as allowing someone to cut in line, would you?

mom2rtk · Mar 28, 2015

I think it's the morality judgments in these discussions that I find most perplexing.

Cormoran · Mar 28, 2015

mom2rtk said:
I think it's the morality judgments in these discussions that I find most perplexing.

I don't think it has anything to do with morality. Instead it's trying to defend FP+ with no regard to logic or reason. That's the thing I find so laughable. There are a lot of positive things about FP+( guaranteed 3 headliners, reserving ride times, going to the park on arrival day with reserved rides), why not just stick to the facts instead of fabricating reasons that FP+ is superior to legacy? :confused3

IMO, it ruins credibility.

Mambo Junkie · Mar 28, 2015

You go to such extremes! Never said that, just pointed out that by helping someone cut in line, you are hurting the other 1000 people in line. The transaction you created has a net of 0- benefit.

I have to disagree with that. How can it hurt if I chose to give it to someone else? If I use it myself, am I hurting 1000 other people? Last trip I got a fp for 7DMT for my granddaughter, only to find she was just short of being able to ride. It was time for our fps, so I saw a guy with his young family contemplating making them wait while he rode. I gave it to him (quite an adventure) but I didn't hurt 1000 people any more than if my DGD had been able to ride. I don't get your logic. I will say I burned a lot of fps because I simply did not have the time to get to my destination.

Ambear · Mar 28, 2015

Cormoran said:
I don't think it has anything to do with morality. Instead it's trying to defend FP+ with no regard to logic or reason. That's the thing I find so laughable. There are a lot of positive things about FP+( guaranteed 3 headliners, reserving ride times, going to the park on arrival day with reserved rides), why not just stick to the facts instead of fabricating reasons that FP+ is superior to legacy? IMO, it ruins credibility.

I'm surprised the discussion has even lasted this long in this thread. When things start getting interesting or complex, some people start to resort to sarcastic jokes, calling people stupid, weird diversions, or irrationally getting personally offended. That, imo, ruins credibility.

Planogirl · Mar 28, 2015

I see nothing wrong with giving someone else your legacy fastpass. Whether you use it or someone else does, it has the same effect. There's no logic to saying that someone else using it will somehow cause problems when you wouldn't have.

Also, as far as sarcasm and so on both sides of the discussion have resorted to that at times. Pointing fingers at only some people (not saying you Ambear!) isn't quite telling the whole story.

goofyernmost · Mar 28, 2015

One unused and uncancelled FP means one less person in the FP line, which means that the standby line, moves that much faster. It really is better that you cannot give them away for countless others in the standby line. I'm sure none of them mind your getting even by just letting them expire.

FP+... who hates it

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