Reporter and Camerman killed on air.

[Goofy_Disney_Dad]

My wife and her father spent a lifetime treating the mentally ill. It's really sad the things people "think" they know on the subject. The reality of our mentally ill in this country is so much different than most can even comprehend. I'm not going to debate the subject because I've witnessed it and have no desire to revisit it again and again. Gaining knowledge instead of believing the negative stigma would go a long, long way.

 

[Disneychick75]

It doesn't need to be about "hey, come and get so and so, he's crazy". Simply the idea that it's acceptable to recognize "this isn't working very well for me, I'm really feeling off" and to seek help as openly as you would for cancer or heart disease -- and expect those around you to say, "hope you get some good news from the doc, hope you're feeling better, how's it going", rather than fearing everyone side eyeing you and whispering about you and avoiding you like you've got the plague might go a long way towards more people seeking treatment as opposed to seeking alcohol or self medicating other ways.

As far as those who do need to be held against their will because they are genuinely a threat to themselves or others, it's very surprising what happens in those cases. I've seen quite a lot of it personally. In my experience a great many people who have decompensated and have family come into court to file for them to be picked up for mental health treatment respond amazingly quickly, amazingly quickly, and it's obvious they are ready to return home. More often than not those admitted for involuntary treatment respond almost immediately to hydration, nutrition and treatment with appropriate psychotropic meds. It's not to say it's uncommon for these folks to relapse, but generally their families and friends recognize and are quicker to intervene or come back to the court if necessary.

Often the problem which causes relapse is that people stop taking their medications. They feel better and think they don't need it anymore. They revert to their mentally ill behaviors and no one can convince them that they need to take their meds. Then, they're committed to a hospital only to stop taking their meds and having therapy. It's a terrible cycle. Another complication is the 5150 ( 72 hour hold). After someone enters an inpatient hospital, you can bet that other patients let a person know about this and a lot of them check themselves out. 72 hours may be enough to get a person on medication thinking straight again BUT it is not nearly enough time to evaluate.

It's possible in our state for the coroner to committ someone for longer treatment than 72 hours but it is not an easy process. I understand the idea of personal liberty. It's the idea that someone who is ill has the personal liberty to go out and take that liberty from someone else, possibly forever. I don't have the answers but I think it's imperative that
experts formulate some kind of law that makes it easier to get a really sick person into a hospital. If a person is in a hospital, the psychiatrists and therapists will be able to discover whether or not the patient truly needs to be inpatient.

Insurance companies also have made it harder to keep someone in a treatment facility. If the patient is not suicidal, many times the companies tell the facilities to release them. These people may have been suicidal when they entered the hospital but are not anymore because they've started medications. It doesn't mean that they are ready to leave.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

It ended up being a short interview rather than a panel, but with several salient points. The media refuses to accept that many news outlets are partly responsible for creating the atmosphere of violence and the evolution of mass murder into "spectacle murder." Mass murders are happening so frequently now that shooters are forced to become more creative (higher body count or finding a large audience, for example) in order to get the same week-long coverage that the media gave the Columbine and Virginia Tech shooters.

They also referred to the shooter as an "injustice collector" - like the post above mine says, the guy has been angry for years and has deluded himself into believing that he was never anything but a victim.

Thank you

 

[jerseygal]

From the moment I read about this yesterday, I am SO SAD for these BRIGHT, YOUNG people who were just beginning wonderful careers and lives.
My heart broke hearing about how the finance was watching this violent senseless act unfold right from the studio with balloons and flowers sitting by her to celebrate her last day! Both were "in love" planning their bright futures and in a moments notice ALL CHANGED. PRAYERS AND THOUGHTS for their families as they face life without their bright son and daughter. Prayers also for the 3rd victim from the Chamber of Commerce so she makes a FULL SPEEDY RECOVERY!

 

[Geoff_M]

I think you're mixing the concepts mental illness and criminal responsibility. It is entirely possible to be both mentally ill and criminally responsible for one's actions.

IMO someone who repeatedly has trouble at one job setting after another, one entirely separate set of co workers to the next, yet never seems to entertain for a moment that perhaps the problem starts within himself and can manage to extrapolate those feelings into an entirely unrelated violent act and then claim that as a reason to ignite his fuse to undertake this violent act himself absolutely has some concerning psychological pathology going on. Whether or not he should be considered criminally culpable under the law wouldn't be my first concern at this point. I think the time and energy would be better spent in looking to improve mental health services so that as many people as possible don't get to this point. That could save and improve lives.

However, what you're saying could also be applied to pretty much any conscious decision to take a life that isn't related to self-defense. Murder, by definition, is largely considered an irrational act involving a disproportionate response to a perceived situation. By all appearances, the shooter yesterday viewed his actions as a justifiable response against those that he both saw as responsible for his termination at the TV station mixed with the need to avenge those murdered in the church in Charleston. His actions were methodical and well planned over time. I haven't seen anything yet that would imply that the shooter was any more mentally ill than, say, the OKC bomber or the Charleston church shooter.

 

[cabanafrau]

Often the problem which causes relapse is that people stop taking their medications. They feel better and think they don't need it anymore. They revert to their mentally ill behaviors and no one can convince them that they need to take their meds. Then, they're committed to a hospital only to stop taking their meds and having therapy. It's a terrible cycle. Another complication is the 5150 ( 72 hour hold). After someone enters an inpatient hospital, you can bet that other patients let a person know about this and a lot of them check themselves out. 72 hours may be enough to get a person on medication thinking straight again BUT it is not nearly enough time to evaluate.

It's possible in our state for the coroner to committ someone for longer treatment than 72 hours but it is not an easy process. I understand the idea of personal liberty. It's the idea that someone who is ill has the personal liberty to go out and take that liberty from someone else, possibly forever. I don't have the answers but I think it's imperative that
experts formulate some kind of law that makes it easier to get a really sick person into a hospital. If a person is in a hospital, the psychiatrists and therapists will be able to discover whether or not the patient truly needs to be inpatient.

Insurance companies also have made it harder to keep someone in a treatment facility. If the patient is not suicidal, many times the companies tell the facilities to release them. These people may have been suicidal when they entered the hospital but are not anymore because they've started medications. It doesn't mean that they are ready to leave.

Definitely it's a vicious cycle.

I don't see much of the 72-hour boomerang here. Most people stay around ten days before being released. It's not to say they don't come back in another 18 months or four years, etc., but they don't often head out the door in 72 hours. Most often the cases where there is the known component of the threat of violence to others wind up on an entirely different track altogether and are not a part of this cycle I'm referring to here. That is a horse of a different color and not something easily discussed in this format.

 

[Missy1961]

The New York Daily News is a dumpster fire of sensationalism and scandal. It's a rag and should be put out of business.

Front page will be pictures from the killer's video
https://twitter.com/NYDailyNews/status/636724797678977025

You might want to edit it out, since the other tweets contain less than family friendly language.

 

[cabanafrau]

However, what you're saying could also be applied to pretty much any conscious decision to take a life that isn't related to self-defense. Murder, by definition, is largely considered an irrational act involving a disproportionate response to a perceived situation. By all appearances, the shooter yesterday viewed his actions as a justifiable response against those that he both saw as responsible for his termination at the TV station mixed with the need to avenge those murdered in the church in Charleston. His actions were methodical and well planned over time. I haven't seen anything yet that would imply that the shooter was any more mentally ill than, say, the OKC bomber or the Charleston church shooter.

Many forms of mental illness do not preclude someone from being a methodical planner, rather they help fuel the impetus to do exactly that, as well as help distort their thought processes and enable them to get past the boundaries most of us have, convincing them they are entitled to bypass morals and ethics.

Sorry, not able to continue right now.

 

[WebmasterMike]

Get it back on track folks. We have now gone down the path of debating mental illness. Let's get back on topic.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

I think what makes this complicated is that for every guy out there like this that came unhinged, there are 1,000 others just as angry & delusional who won't ever act out in such a manner. And we have no way of knowing who's #200, who's #657, or who's #1,001.

 

[Domo]

When do we get to talk about it and be outraged? The violence never ends. I see a cop in Louisiana was killed this evening after responding to a domestic violence call where the suspect stabbed three women (one died). It simply never stops! I say we need MORE outrage. I don't want to grieve anymore. I'm tired of grieving. I bet the families of those murdered today would rather be doing anything but grieving tonight. This is getting old and if we aren't all outraged by this and expressing that outrage, nothing will change. Who am I kidding? Nothing is going to change and I think we all know that.

Trust me, I'm with you, I just feel that not enough time has elapsed yet since the tragedy. That's all

 

[dinolounger]

From what I have read, I don't think he suffered from "mental illness" in any way. He clearly understood what he was doing, methodically planned out the murders, wrote a seething 20-page "manifesto" explaining his feelings and actions, video taped the ambush and then posted it on-line after the fact, and when it was obvious he was about to be apprehended he killed himself. Other than his actions being something we cannot fathom doing personally, he hardly seemed detached from reality in any way.

Geoff, excellent points.

And to further point out how fine the line is between clear evidence of behavior that displays violent intentions vs. someone who is just difficult/unpleasant/angry, I heard not one, or two, but three different extended interviews yesterday with people who had previously worked with Vester Lee Flanagan (AKA Bryce Williams). All of them stated he at times was not the easiest person to interact with, but also indicated they never felt he was a "powder keg" capable of physically harming others.

In addition, if Flanagan had been a clearly dangerous "sick puppy" how did he get repeatedly hired in three different TV markets? Bottom line: while I understand the motivation of the "we need better mental health resources" postings here, they ignore that fact dangerous homicidal intent is not always related to mental illness. There is unfortunately no simple, straightforward way to somehow continuously monitor the entire population to identify and intervene with people like Flanagan.

 

[pat fan]

Belief in Exceptionalism that does not come to fruition.

Desire to attain Fame.

I can't speak to the first thing.

As far as the exceptionalism, I think it goes more towards the recent trend of making our kids think they are "special" and making everything so easy for them. We have always been a country where anything was possible but only recently have we tried to teach our kids that everything is deserved. This is what happens when they realize that's not going to happen.

Same for the fame. The "selfie" generation is obsessed with how many friends they have on FB, being in constant contact with the "world" when they are really isolating themselves from the real world, wanting their video to go viral etc...It has created a bunch of narcissistic and frustrated people when you combine the above two things.

 

[Geoff_M]

Many forms of mental illness do not preclude someone from being a methodical planner, rather they help fuel the impetus to do exactly that, as well as help distort their thought processes and enable them to get past the boundaries most of us have, convincing them they are entitled to bypass morals and ethics.

I agree that methodical planning doesn't disprove the presence of mental illness in and of itself, that's where other factors come into play. John Hinckley certainly planned his shooting of Ronald Reagan some time before carrying them out... even going so far as to study and collect information about Lee Harvey Oswald for some time beforehand. However, it was the obsession with Jodi Foster and the unhinged belief that the act would finally get the actress to care for him that was indicative of mental health issues being involved in the attempted assassination. It's certainly early in this case, but I hadn't heard of any information surfacing about any such similar delusional or conspiratorial paranoid thinking, or other actions/beliefs, that would separate this murderer from your average disgruntled ex-employee who decides to seek the ultimate revenge against those they feel have led them to personal ruin. At worst, he was referred to an employee assistance program at the station for apparent combative behavior with co-workers, but I don't think being rude, arrogant, and having a chip on your shoulder is a mental illness. Can you shed some light on anything known that would differentiate this shooter from most "workplace shooters" or even from the Charleston shooter that would be indicative of mental illness?

 

[AnnaFloridaLover]

Geoff, excellent points.

And to further point out how fine the line is between clear evidence of behavior that displays violent intentions vs. someone who is is just difficult/unpleasant/angry, I heard not one, or two, but three different extended interviews yesterday with people who had previously worked with Vester Lee Flanagan (AKA Bryce Williams). All of them stated he at times was not the easiest person to interact with, but also indicated they never felt he was a "powder keg" capable of physically harming others.

In addition, if Flanagan had been a clearly dangerous "sick puppy" how did he get repeatedly hired in three different TV markets? Bottom line: while I understand the motivation of the "we need better mental health resources" postings here, they ignore that fact dangerous homicidal intent is not always related to mental illness. There is unfortunately no simple, straightforward way to somehow continuously monitor the entire population to identify and intervene with people like Flanagan.

Perfectly stated.

 

[TeresaNJ]

Let's call it what it is, a hate crime, plain & simple. The focus has to be on mental illness & the gun though, as the killer doesn't fit the media's agenda, does he?

 

[Disneychick75]

Geoff, excellent points.

And to further point out how fine the line is between clear evidence of behavior that displays violent intentions vs. someone who is just difficult/unpleasant/angry, I heard not one, or two, but three different extended interviews yesterday with people who had previously worked with Vester Lee Flanagan (AKA Bryce Williams). All of them stated he at times was not the easiest person to interact with, but also indicated they never felt he was a "powder keg" capable of physically harming others.

In addition, if Flanagan had been a clearly dangerous "sick puppy" how did he get repeatedly hired in three different TV markets? Bottom line: while I understand the motivation of the "we need better mental health resources" postings here, they ignore that fact dangerous homicidal intent is not always related to mental illness. There is unfortunately no simple, straightforward way to somehow continuously monitor the entire population to identify and intervene with people like Flanagan.

This s a link to a letter from Dan Dennison to Vester Flanagan aka Bryce Williams which references Williams's problems with coworkers:

http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2300656-vesterflanagan2.html#document/p1

article:
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...-vester-flanagan-wdbj-2012-memos-medical-help

Please note the highlighted portion of the text is part of the article, not mine.

 

[sam_gordon]

Let's call it what it is, a hate crime, plain & simple. The focus has to be on mental illness & the gun though, as the killer doesn't fit the media's agenda, does he?

How do you figure it's a "hate crime"? The shooter felt the two victims "wronged" him.

 

[Missy1961]

Let's call it what it is, a hate crime, plain & simple. The focus has to be on mental illness & the gun though, as the killer doesn't fit the media's agenda, does he?

I wish you would explain this.

 

[Christine]

It's certainly early in this case, but I hadn't heard of any information surfacing about any such similar delusional or conspiratorial paranoid thinking, or other actions/beliefs, that would separate this murderer from your average disgruntled ex-employee who decides to seek the ultimate revenge against those they feel have led them to personal ruin. At worst, he was referred to an employee assistance program at the station for apparent combative behavior with co-workers, but I don't think being rude, arrogant, and having a chip on your shoulder is a mental illness. Can you shed some light on anything known that would differentiate this shooter from most "workplace shooters" or even from the Charleston shooter that would be indicative of mental illness?

Take this with a grain of salt as it was reported by the media in today's WaPo. When Flanagan was fired from the station in 2013, her outburst and rage was so significant that he scared many of the other employees who felt the need to run in their office and lock themselves in and security had to be called. Now, granted, he was already fired at this point for "bizarre behavior" among other reasons, but I believe he was exhibiting odd behavior for quite some time according to reports. I don't think anyone every really believes that this person they see everyday, odd or not, is going to become a shooter.

I will tell you know, after being directly involved in a workplace shooting, I certainly have a different perspective now on odd behavior. In my particular case, the shooter was displaying schizophrenic symptoms long before the shooting and it was never taken seriously enough. Same deal with the VaTECH shooter. It all just gets swept under the rug because handling it is too hard.