Caitlyn Jenner

[sunshinehighway]

exactly


I do still think of this person as "him" out of habit-I have been watching him for so long on the Kardashian show (I now don't watch it) I found him to be very submissive and tolerating lots of put downs by his family-esp Kris. It was disturbing to watch

Early on in this thread I think people were saying Bruce and him because that's who he was until yesterday when he let Caitlyn be known.
When I say him or Bruce it's because I'm referring to things that were done when Caitlyn was Bruce. With this change being so new, there is a separation in my mind. As time goes on, that will probably change.
I do think it's wrong for people to insist on continuing to say he and Bruce in reference to after Caitlyn has become known.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

As for the Bruce/Caityln thing, I think you have to look at intent.

I've known someone by one name for twenty years. We spent a year as roommates in college and he (at the time) roomed in my family's apartment for a year or so after college. She came out as a trans woman last year. There are times I will slip and use "him" and her male name, but I always kick myself afterwards.

 

[NFLDERS]

Actually DNA is a funny thing. There are men who have extra female chromosomes (look up Klinefelter Syndrome) and women who have male chromosomes but appear to be women. So a person's DNA is not the sole determination of their gender. Gender is a social construct not a biological one.

Amen, and Women.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Let us not pretend that everyone on this thread that used Bruce and He and argued that Caitlyn was still a man in this thread did so out of mere force of habit.

I think before the lecturing started, that is why posters used Bruce and him. There have been comments since the lecturing that have definitely used Bruce and him as a way to be disrespectful.

 

[cabanafrau]

I think before the lecturing started, that is why posters used Bruce and him. There have been comments since the lecturing that have definitely used Bruce and him as a way to be disrespectful.

It looks like some of that went on, but I cannot conceive why it would be correct to use the female pronouns when discussing the choices and actions of Bruce and the lifetime lived as Bruce. It's not as if the Olympic committee is going to pull out an eraser and amend the records to reflect the current change. There was a life lived under different constructs. If anybody understands that it should be Caitlyn Jenner. If it took her decades to make the change, decades in which he made some pretty significant choices that affected other people, I think she can work with awkward pronoun usage if people are trying to understand the concepts and not hate on it.

How many articles are published referencing the Duchess of Cambridge versus Kate Middleton? Seems there is a definitive majority on that one, yet I don't believe for a minute it is done to be offensive. This situation has some similarities.

 

[Dizlvr]

Let us not pretend that everyone on this thread that used Bruce and He and argued that Caitlyn was still a man in this thread did so out of mere force of habit.

Then that poster should have directly quoted, or PM's those few individuals instead of lecturing everyone on this thread. Had she done that there would have been no need for the other posters to comment and she wouldn't have felt so attacked.

 

[DisneyLvr55]

I haven't read the responses, so this isn't about what was posted here, but it annoys me to read the posts on FB of people complaining that she was photoshopped, and she should have the guts to come out without being retouched, yada yada yada. EVERYONE IS PHOTOSHOPPED!!! Why shouldn't she want to look the best she possibly can?! And out of everyone in the world who is on the cover of a magazine with the help of photoshop, at least she has an excuse - Shes a 65 year old male, doing her best to look as feminine as possible - And she looks damn good doing it! Ok, off my soapbox

 

[Dizlvr]

I would call him whatever he wanted to be called, including the King of Siam if he wished. And I would also make sure he felt comfortable around me. But I would also know what he is. And that is a man even if he thinks otherwise.

Fair enough, but she really wouldn't be a man at that point, despite having male DNA.

 

[cabanafrau]

Fair enough, but she really wouldn't be a man at that point, despite having male DNA.

If a person makes the point to treat another with respect and make them feel comfortable, it's no one's business what's in the privacy of their own thoughts.

 

[Dizlvr]

If a person makes the point to treat another with respect and make them feel comfortable, it's no one's business what's in the privacy of their own thoughts.

I agree and that comment was directed at the "what he is" part of that statement. "He" is not a man anymore, but of course that poster is free to think whatever they want, as I'm free to discuss their comments.

 

[cabanafrau]

Correct. However, gender identity has nothing to do with a person's DNA or genitals, so I'm not really sure what your point is.

It is interesting that in all of the discussion of gender identity it keeps cycling back to it not being about sexuality, not being about genitals, not being about hobbies and/or interests, yet what is it really? It has to be about more than what department your clothes come from, yet that seems to be one of the only things pointed to when you try and define it or what a transitioning person wants out of it.

I left DNA out of my comments because I'm not aware that DNA identification can specify gender.

 

[nkereina]

Its funny when people say she wanted the fame or whatever and she didn't have to do this all out in the public and be so open and fame-*****. But the media is what forces that. She was being hounded by media with her picture all over crappy magazines speculating that Bruce was turning into a woman like it's shameful or outrageous. So I kinda like that she's just embracing it and being positively open now. It might be interesting to some people, or it may bore them. If it bores you... There are a billion other interesting topics out there to focus on.

Of course. It's great for the LGBT community for him to be out in the open, and no doubt the media frenzy would have never left her alone if she tried to do it privately. But for her to do primetime specialis, magazine spreads, and now a reality show - all while earning millions - the noble thing for her to do would be to donate a chunk of that to LGBT groups or something. To date, I've not heard of her doing this so this makes her look like she's riding the cash cow and making this public for the wrong reasons. Perhaps JUST the primetime special or JUST the magazine spread would have been sufficient enough for her to say her piece and let the world know, but to continue with it in the limelight for profit is becoming tacky.

 

[Art 1]

Fair enough, but she really wouldn't be a man at that point, despite having male DNA.

But to me and most people he would be despite what he thinks. I find him an interesting person and have for many many years. He seems to be a very nice man, I would enjoy his company as he seems to be someone who would enjoy good conversation. But even if he has his thingy removed to me he is a man. If he feels better this way I'm happy for him. He's not asking the insurance company or government to fund it so it's ok by me.

But when does it stop. If a person thinks they are a horse born in a humans body, finds a surgeon to put a horse tail and ears on him does that make him a horse?

 

[DisneyLvr55]

But to me and most people he would be despite what he thinks. I find him an interesting person and have for many many years. He seems to be a very nice man, I would enjoy his company as he seems to be someone who would enjoy good conversation. But even if he has his thingy removed to me he is a man. If he feels better this way I'm happy for him. He's not asking the insurance company or government to fund it so it's ok by me.

But when does it stop. If a person thinks they are a horse born in a humans body, finds a surgeon to put a horse tail and ears on him does that make him a horse?

The horse reference is moronic and disrespectful. Not just to the transgender community, but to all people.

 

[SirDuff]

I found this interesting and I'm not actually sure what I think about it (ignoring any issues with the fact that the club segregates men and women in the first place).

Jenner belongs to a golf Club (Sherwood) that has a separate dining room/bar for men (the story says that there is also one for women - I assume that there is a third, joint/family, place, but I don't know). Since Jenner now identifies as female, she will not be allowed into the men's dining room/bar. I expect that they'll get backlash, but it seems sensible to me, I think (again, ignoring the fact that having separate dining rooms/bars is weird to me).

http://www.tmz.com/2015/06/02/caitlyn-jenner-golf-course-sherwood/

 

[wannaheadsouth]

The horse reference is moronic and disrespectful. Not just to the transgender community, but to all people.

 

[Planogirl]

There are people out there that claim they actually identify with certain animals. I read an article about these people a short time back and feel completely confused when it comes to them.

However a transgender person is not the same thing. I feel confused by them too but I don't lump them in with the animal people. (I forget the term for them.)

 

[SLP958]

I haven't read the responses, so this isn't about what was posted here, but it annoys me to read the posts on FB of people complaining that she was photoshopped, and she should have the guts to come out without being retouched, yada yada yada. EVERYONE IS PHOTOSHOPPED!!! Why shouldn't she want to look the best she possibly can?! And out of everyone in the world who is on the cover of a magazine with the help of photoshop, at least she has an excuse - Shes a 65 year old male, doing her best to look as feminine as possible - And she looks damn good doing it! Ok, off my soapbox

Yes, everyone is photoshopped but not so much as to look like a new gender/person.
I understand Catilyn wants to look good but people can't be expected to believe this is a true picture.

 

[Art 1]

The horse reference is moronic and disrespectful. Not just to the transgender community, but to all people.

Oh really? You don't think this will happen?

 

[TaylorEar]

But to me and most people he would be despite what he thinks. I find him an interesting person and have for many many years. He seems to be a very nice man, I would enjoy his company as he seems to be someone who would enjoy good conversation. But even if he has his thingy removed to me he is a man. If he feels better this way I'm happy for him. He's not asking the insurance company or government to fund it so it's ok by me.

But when does it stop. If a person thinks they are a horse born in a humans body, finds a surgeon to put a horse tail and ears on him does that make him a horse?

How shocking that you of ALL posters would post something so problematic and offensive. No seriously. Shocking.

Thankfully, I don't actually believe that most people share your thoughts and opinions, as has been demonstrated by the majority of the posts in this thread.