Parents of high schoolers--improving grades

[The Mystery Machine]

I'm seeking input from those of you who actually have faced this situation to see if anyone has had any success in turning it around.

I have a 15 yo, who has always been an excellent student in the past. This year, she is bombing math and science, and this is a kid who always wanted to go into the medical field. She says its too hard and she can't do it and if she spends her life at a low paying, menial job it's no big deal. I've seen no evidence of her putting in much effort this year at all. Her teachers have offered no insight. She goes to a big school and the guidance counselors are so busy dealing with the kids with horrible problems that this sort of thing gets no attention.

She stays for extra help sometimes, but I don't think she finds it very helpful. Even the teachers have said that the afterschool help tends to be chaotic. We just started paying for a science tutor, which we are willing to do, but if dd isn't motivated I'm not convinced it's going to help all that much.

We've punished. We've grounded. We've taken electronic gadgets. We've listened. We've tried reasoning. We've tried getting her to take responsibility. There is no buy in on her part. I think she'd like to do better, but she's not willing to work hard and she's convinced she's just not smart. She's not taking drugs, she's not drinking.

We've been taking her to a therapist. At this age, you hear nothing at all from the therapist, but I suspect from what dd has said that she just uses the time to gripe about us, and that the therapist reinforces that it's just peachy to barely skate by.

Has anyone faced this before and had a positive outcome with your kid turning things around? What did you do? What helped?

I am living it now with my 16yodd, also a sophomore, she is bombing math and science too. We must be twins, lol.

She is in counseling & is also on meds and does have anxiety/depression issues and has since forever.

She is being proactive and doing this on her own with the private counselors advice with trying to fix it.

Also she dropped a class and took a study hall and is getting help DURING school. They have "help labs" for science and math during ALL classes during the day. They also have help before and after school.

The science she may pull out of because she has labs to turn in that will help.

The math might be a lost cause and if she fails it is summer school.

At this point, I am supportive of what she needs and I am done "punishing her". She hates herself right now and is struggling.

Now I did take away her game remote from the laptop until she turns in her science labs.

She is the one who does her schedule, not me. Her expectations are her expectations, not mine, just to address PP, lol.

 

[Pigeon]

I'm so sorry you're having such a tough time! I don't have a teenager, but I tutor them. I also have a brother who is very smart, but graduated with a 1.23 GPA (I honestly think they just wanted him gone!) I have a couple of thoughts on your daughter.

You say that she always wanted to go into the medical field, but this year she is finding the math and science courses to be very difficult. I remember growing up I always wanted to be a doctor, but when I got to high school, I found that I just didn't get chemistry. I'd never had trouble picking things up before, and this was a real struggle. It crushed me to struggle in a course that was key to the future I had planned. Maybe her "I don't care" attitude is a realization that she no longer wants or feels like she is capable of going into the medical field. She may be depressed about it, hence not caring if she works menial jobs.

I've tried to point out to her that her career choices for life aren't necessarily either brain surgeon or nail salon technician at the mall.

 

[rlduvall]

. . . I know that many (including me) get a good laugh at the "gifted" threads on the DIS. . . .

The point here (if there is one) is that expectations are set early and we, as parents, come to believe that our children are exceedingly bright. We do not think to consider that perhaps other children will catch up or that effort (which is generally not necessary in elementary school) makes a significant difference.

My DH and I could not care less if he is gifted or not - I'm certainly of average intelligence and have had an incredible life/career - I think it's irrelevant. The Teacher noticed it and recommended to us he be tested. Certainly that is not all you gleaned from my post. I have never posted on the "gifted" thread and in fact have never even mentioned this about my DS before, but it is so comforting to know that you are laughing at "gifted" children.

My intention in posting was to show that he refuses to apply himself, that's all. Nothing more, nothing less. I never even thought it would be construed that I thought my child was a snowflake.

 

[Sanchez]

My DH and I could not care less if he is gifted or not - I'm certainly of average intelligence and have had an incredible life/career - I think it's irrelevant. The Teacher noticed it and recommended to us he be tested. Certainly that is not all you gleaned from my post. I have never posted on the "gifted" thread and in fact have never even mentioned this about my DS before, but it is so comforting to know that you are laughing at "gifted" children.

My intention in posting was to show that he refuses to apply himself, that's all. Nothing more, nothing less. I never even thought it would be construed that I thought my child was a snowflake.

Whoa!!! Back up. I quoted your post as an example of early success and later struggles in school. I never implied that you made those claims. I am sorry that you read it that way.

 

[CupcakeKelly]

I've tried to point out to her that her career choices for life aren't necessarily either brain surgeon or nail salon technician at the mall.

I totally get where you are coming from. I read in another post that you said that she won an 8th grade award for high academic achievement. If she's always been a high performing student, and all of a sudden she is having trouble in some of her classes, she could be having somewhat of an identity struggle. The teenage years are when we struggle (some more than others) to figure out who we are and where we think we fit in the world. If she has always been "the smart kid", and all of a sudden she is struggling, she may be having trouble defining who she is anymore. I know I'm offering zero advice, and more armchair psychology with my responses, but she might just be going through a transition period in her maturity right now.

 

[Buckalew11]

But for some kids, it is black or white. Ugh, so frustrating.

My nephew once told me in HS that "it is not cool to be smart." He had a group of friends who were very friendly competitive but other than them and teachers, it was just a negative. Isn't that sad?

Anyway, we went through that "not cool" thing with DD is 8th grade. She would never do anything to ruin her grades but she'd do just enough (like turn in things late) so classmates would not think she was "goody goodie" and too smart.

So, it could be related to that type of thing--social pressure or sorts.

Maybe she needs a nice summer job doing some hard work to make her rethink her options.
My family owned a motel when I was growing up and I grew up cleaning motel rooms. I knew I did not want to do *that* kind of work for a living--it is just old hard work.

As you know, I'm a hairdresser (30 years in June, ack!) and I made that decision as a 15 years HS sophomore (well, that was the year I started the program). I struggled FR year with Algebra (made B's and C's) and decided it was all too hard and that I was not going to go on to college.

I've said here before that it is my biggest regret. I've loved doing hair and it has been good to me but I wish I would have went to college. I was college material and just did not want to work that hard in school or apply myself. I'd hate for your DD to make that same mistake.

 

[NHdisneylover]

OP--what do you mean by "bombing" and "barely skating by" Is she failing? Getting Cs when she used to get As?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

What worked for us, to a degree, was motivational things vs punishment. In MS it was earning a few hours of Xbox on weekends. Now in HS it's sports and driving contingencies. Our problem is largely resolved with DS. His grades are decent. But he doesn't put the effort in that he could. (His teachers have always noted this.) I know you're not supposed to compare, but I watch the effort his (twin) sister puts in and it's like night and day. (It's hard for me to believe he only has 15 minutes of homework when she has hours worth for essentially the same classes!) But we've discussed it ad nauseam and this is what he's choosing for himself, school-wise. In all honesty, I don't fret about it much because he's otherwise healthy and happy and on paper his grades are acceptable. I don't think he's ever going to be the type of kid that will put a ton of time into schoolwork. And sure, it may well affect his choices in the future.

I will agree about looking at colleges as motivation. We've already visited a number of college campuses - walked around, had lunch, visited bookstores, etc. DS talks about it quite a bit (as does DD), and brings up potential careers and programs of study because of it. I wanted to take out some of the fear and mystery about college and to that end, I think I succeeded. I also think getting a job is helpful as they see how hard it is to earn money. DS worked literally every day of his April vacation and he was exhausted! The money he earned is food for his age group, but it wouldn't go very far if he was on his own. Maybe a job bagging groceries or cleaning this summer would help your DD see the realities of menial work?

One other thing that just hit me - aren't you a CEO or something like that? Could this be a type of "rebellion" for her, feeling she won't "measure up"? Just a thought. At any rate, good luck!

 

[Aliceacc]

Pigeon, I teach high school math.

Tonight and tomorrow night are hectic around here, but I bet I can get her back on track over the weekend.

Have her PM me with any questions she has on whatever she's covering in math. Tell her I'm a total stranger, so there's no need to worry about what she doesn't know. We can set up a time when she and I can work for an hour or so, and see if we can get her confidence back.

I'm bad at a LOT!!!! of things, but I'm really good at teaching high school math.

In the meantime, there's a great site out there for high school subjects: http://www.regentsprep.org/ It's intended to prep kids for the NY State Regents exam, but it's a great review of so many subjects. Have her take a look and see whether the explanations there make sense.

 

[rlduvall]

Whoa!!! Back up. I quoted your post as an example of early success and later struggles in school. I never implied that you made those claims. I am sorry that you read it that way.

Fair enough.

 

[rlduvall]

I've said here before that it is my biggest regret. I've loved doing hair and it has been good to me but I wish I would have went to college. I was college material and just did not want to work that hard in school or apply myself. I'd hate for your DD to make that same mistake.

It's never too late. Remember, even it takes you 6-8 years to get your degree . . . you will still be that same age in 6-8 years anyway.

 

[Mkrop]

I think it's hard to tell about the struggling, because while she might be feeling "stupid" now, she also used to spend much more time doing homework. Things did come relatively easy to her, but she used to also apply herself, so it's sort of a chicken/egg thing. She'll enrolled in honors courses this year, but obviously won't be next year.

She's much more caught up in the teen drama/social stuff of course, which is a huge distraction.

She's got some very smart kids in her class and they all like to brag about how they don't study, don't work at it, etc., which she believes. I've talked to some of their parents and know this is just teenaged bragging. Most of the kids getting good grades are working at it and many of them have "Tiger Mothers," but of course my kid thinks it's just that they are brilliant and she isn't capable.

I had two types of kids in my classes, ones who worked all day and night and had no social life and the others who did not have to crack a book and got As. I did not want the first part and I wasnt one of the second type. I struggled to figure out who I was. I was suddenly "dumb" I was actually far from it but I did not know how to apply myself bc I never had to and I did not have parents motivating me bc neither of them had gone to college.

But for some kids, it is black or white. Ugh, so frustrating.

My nephew once told me in HS that "it is not cool to be smart." He had a group of friends who were very friendly competitive but other than them and teachers, it was just a negative. Isn't that sad?

Anyway, we went through that "not cool" thing with DD is 8th grade. She would never do anything to ruin her grades but she'd do just enough (like turn in things late) so classmates would not think she was "goody goodie" and too smart.

So, it could be related to that type of thing--social pressure or sorts.

Maybe she needs a nice summer job doing some hard work to make her rethink her options.
My family owned a motel when I was growing up and I grew up cleaning motel rooms. I knew I did not want to do *that* kind of work for a living--it is just old hard work.

As you know, I'm a hairdresser (30 years in June, ack!) and I made that decision as a 15 years HS sophomore (well, that was the year I started the program). I struggled FR year with Algebra (made B's and C's) and decided it was all too hard and that I was not going to go on to college.

I've said here before that it is my biggest regret. I've loved doing hair and it has been good to me but I wish I would have went to college. I was college material and just did not want to work that hard in school or apply myself. I'd hate for your DD to make that same mistake.

This was another thing I greatly struggled with, only 1 of my friends were in class with me. I would go to parties on the weekends with my friends and no one knew who I was bc I was in the Honors classes. I felt like a dork and it was not cool to be smart at the time. There were 4 of us that would be at the parties and in the Honors classes and we use to laugh about it on Mondays.

College was a big turn around for me as well bc people actually respected being intelligent and getting good grades.

 

[ZellyB]

What worked for us, to a degree, was motivational things vs punishment.

We took a similar approach. I know you said you took away electronic devices as a punishment, but we tried to couch it differently as a motivator. My 15 year old's phone was a huge distraction. He would spend time that he should have been doing homework or studying instead texting or playing games on his phone. So, rather than taking his phone away as a punishment for an extended period of time, he had to earn it back each evening. So, each evening after dinner his phone went away and he had to go through and tell us all of his assignments for that day. Then, he had to complete all those assignments and show them to us before he got his phone back. There was a short term motivation for him to get in and get it done and get his phone. It worked for us. He was quick to get in and get things done and his grades have improved. I think to some degree he was worried we would sit there and read all his texts. I do feel your pain though. It wasn't and still isn't particularly fun to have to police him in this way.

 

[disneypharm]

The problem is not that these kids are not smart enough, I think the main problem is that the majority of middle schools in this country do not prepare students well enough for high school level classes.

DD15 attended an amazing out of district charter school until 8th grade. She worked very hard and often had a lot of assignments and papers every night. It was tough for a few years, especially when she could see her friends from our local middle schools hardly ever studied for tests/exams.

She started freshman year taking all honors and some junior level classes. She is doing great in high school (ranked first in her class of over 500). She says that most kids in her classes are struggling with basic skills in math and sciences. These are very smart kids who received awards in 7th and 8th grades, but were not prepared well for high schools. DD misses all her great teachers from her middle school.

OP, I think your DD needs a great tutor. She has shown that she can learn in the past, it is just hard for her to see that things doesn't come easy to her like before.

 

[Pigeon]

We took a similar approach. I know you said you took away electronic devices as a punishment, but we tried to couch it differently as a motivator. My 15 year old's phone was a huge distraction. He would spend time that he should have been doing homework or studying instead texting or playing games on his phone. So, rather than taking his phone away as a punishment for an extended period of time, he had to earn it back each evening. So, each evening after dinner his phone went away and he had to go through and tell us all of his assignments for that day. Then, he had to complete all those assignments and show them to us before he got his phone back. There was a short term motivation for him to get in and get it done and get his phone. It worked for us. He was quick to get in and get things done and his grades have improved. I think to some degree he was worried we would sit there and read all his texts. I do feel your pain though. It wasn't and still isn't particularly fun to have to police him in this way.

That's also making my head explode. She's at an age where we ought to be backing off supervising her studying. We never really had to pay that much attention to it at all in the past. Now to get her to do anything, we have to be helicopter parents when she should be stepping forward.

I've tried the "earn it back" approach too, for things like her phone. She just says, fine, ruin my social life completely and see if I care.

Oh, and I should have mentioned, dh is a high school science teacher. He is perfectly capable of teaching her most of what she needs, but she just doesn't cooperate. She says she doesn't have any homework or comes up with a million reasons why she has to work on something else and not the problem subjects. She'll watch the occasional Kahn academy video, which is nice, but if you don't then do some problems it doesn't really help.

On one level, I get this. My dad was an engineer, and I would stab myself in the eye with a fork rather than have him help me with my math homework.

 

[Pigeon]

The problem is not that these kids are not smart enough, I think the main problem is that the majority of middle schools in this country do not prepare students well enough for high school level classes.

DD15 attended an amazing out of district charter school until 8th grade. She worked very hard and often had a lot of assignments and papers every night. It was tough for a few years, especially when she could see her friends from our local middle schools hardly ever studied for tests/exams.

She started freshman year taking all honors and some junior level classes. She is doing great in high school (ranked first in her class of over 500). She says that most kids in her classes are struggling with basic skills in math and sciences. These are very smart kids who received awards in 7th and 8th grades, but were not prepared well for high schools. DD misses all her great teachers from her middle school.

OP, I think your DD needs a great tutor. She has shown that she can learn in the past, it is just hard for her to see that things doesn't come easy to her like before.

She had a very good elementary and junior high. She was perfectly well prepared. It's not the school's fault, it's her fault. She just has no motivation.

We've started with a chem tutor, at $50/hr. It really frosts me that while I'm trying to save money for her college education, I'm also having to shell out for a tutor because she's too unmotivated to get with the program. I don't tell her this, but that's what I'm feeling. And if I have to get her a math tutor too, that's $400/month. I am going to tell her that learning to drive when she turns 16 is going to be on the table. If I have to pay $400/month for tutors, it's going to be tough to cough up the money for adding her to our insurance.

 

[manhattanman]

OP, I think your DD needs a great tutor. She has shown that she can learn in the past, it is just hard for her to see that things doesn't come easy to her like before.

I'm not discounting the value of a tutor but unless you can motivate someone to WANT to learn, a tutor is a just a really expensive way to delay the inevitable. the worlds greatest tutor cant overcome apathy or animus.

The idea that it's not " cool to be smart" enrages me to no end, but it is far too prevalent. by the time a lot of students find out the folly of this position, they are often so far behind that they cant fix it.

Good luck

 

[Buckalew11]

It's never too late. Remember, even it takes you 6-8 years to get your degree . . . you will still be that same age in 6-8 years anyway.

At this point, DD is in college and DH is working on his nursing degree. That's about all I can afford at this point in life but you never know...maybe someday.

I'm not discounting the value of a tutor but unless you can motivate someone to WANT to learn, a tutor is a just a really expensive way to delay the inevitable. the worlds greatest tutor cant overcome apathy or animus.

The idea that it's not " cool to be smart" enrages me to no end, but it is far too prevalent. by the time a lot of students find out the folly of this position, they are often so far behind that they cant fix it.

Good luck

Me too. Thankfully my nephew did not buy into it. He loves being smart.


OP, a client of mine had HS motivation with her son. What worked for him was that he wanted to learn to fly. They made a deal with him about grades--bring them up and you can sign up for flying lessons. It worked and today, many years later, he's a commercial pilot.

Maybe there is something that would motivate your DD?

 

[disfan07]

If she's not motivated she won't get better grades. Motivation is the key and a lot of kids go through a point in schooling where they loose that motivation.

I was a good student through about freshman year in high school. Then things started spiraling downwards. The fact that I graduated high school is a minor miracle and honestly, I only graduate because I got As in band. In high school, I developed severe depression (I was suicidal), severe anxiety along with some physical health issues that led to Hospitalizations. At that point I just gave up and stopped trying. I always did pretty well on exams but I never did the homework which of course was most of the grade so in the good classes, I was getting Cs. But my grades beginning sophomore year were primarily Cs and Ds. I graduated and went to community college for a semester. I again got 2 Cs, 1 D and 1 F. I took off the next semester. I went back to communi college that fall and over the next year I did better. Mostly Bs and Cs. Motivation was still lacking and my professors were terrible so that didn't help.

We moved to California the next year and I finished up my second year of CC there. That year I got almost straight As. Something had clicked and the professors at my new CC were for the most part, amazing.

I brought my GPA up to a little above a 3.0 and the next year I transferred to a UC campus. I graduate in 6 weeks as a double major. Right now I have a 3.848 GPA and I should be graduating with honors. I am planning on getting my post bacc for pre med and going to medical school and get my MPH as well.

So in short, it is possible to turn things around. There is not one "right" way of doing things. I have had more bumps in the road than most 23 year olds have seen. I've been in this school for 80 weeks and I've missed 20 of those weeks because of health issues.

I think you need to find what motivates her. Sometimes the motivation just clicks for some and others need more of a push. External rewards and punishments only work for as long as they exist. Once those external things are removed, if she is not motivated internally, she won't do as well. Intrinsic and extrinsic motivation are both very important but intrinsic motivation is most Important.

Oh....and in relation to therapy....are you seeing any progress at home? Does she like going to therapy or is she resistant to it? The reason I ask is because for years, I swore up and down that I would never go to therapy. After my hospitalization I was "required" to commit to outpatient therapy as a condition of my discharge. But I was stubborn and we went through 6 therapists in a year. Never clicked with any of them and I refused to go. My parents finally gave up. But now, I've been in therapy for a little over two years. I love my therapist. She is absolutely amazing and honestly, she is one of the big reasons why I'm graduating in 6 weeks. If you don't think this therapist is working, you can always find another one. But I do think therapy is good for a lot of teenagers....as long as they can find one who they click with.

 

[NHdisneylover]

Maybe you missed my earlier post? It makes a difference in the advice I give, so I want to ask again:

what do you consider "bombing" classes? Is this failing? Getting Cs? Something else?