VERY disappointed in DVC and their member cruise!

[tjkraz]

The more they restrictions they put on resales, the more they water down the value of direct sales. Many (most?) people who have purchased a DVC membership do so with the idea that if they ever decide to sell, there will be some value to their membership.

I'll have to politely disagree with that one. I don't think most buyers give more than a fleeting thought to resale. 75% of buyers finance their purchase. As far as the masses go, I think their only real questions buyers ask themselves are 1) can I afford the monthly payments, and 2) how quickly can I plan my first trip to WDW after I buy.

Sure, that value will go down as there is less time left on the contract, but it's a fairly steady decline. Ripping benefits out of resales (no matter how minimal the benefit) greatly accelerates that decline AND it makes their customers quite bitter.

Has there been any evidence of the greatly accelerated decline since March 2011?

I realize this is a somewhat distasteful topic to discuss and I'm not concluding that Disney is correct. But it's obvious they intend to take steps to protect their market in light of increased pressure from resales.

Disney is finally discovering what others in the timeshare industry have known for years--it's much harder to sell "new" when buyers can get resales for a fraction of the price. Good will and pixie dust don't sway purchasing decisions when a buyer is deciding between AKV for $110 and HHI for $40.

 

[disneynutz]

The more they restrictions they put on resales, the more they water down the value of direct sales. Many (most?) people who have purchased a DVC membership do so with the idea that if they ever decide to sell, there will be some value to their membership. Sure, that value will go down as there is less time left on the contract, but it's a fairly steady decline. Ripping benefits out of resales (no matter how minimal the benefit) greatly accelerates that decline AND it makes their customers quite bitter. It will take a bit of time to see that ripple effect, but Disney is shooting themselves in the foot. Resale buyers will be spending much less at the Parks out of spite and when word gets widely spread, new sales will drop because there's no way to tell what they'll rip out next and therefore no way to gauge what value their contract will have in 10, 20, or 30 years.

They'd be MUCH wiser to offer incentives to purchase direct. An extra discount on APs, TIW cards, or something like that. It doesn't even have to be a BIG discount, just a little extra something that makes direct buyers feel extra special.

Bribery works much better then coercion.

Lack of ROFR has also caused resale prices to drop along with the current economy. If Disney continues to get enough inventory through foreclosures, they will never pick up contracts through ROFR.

We purchased some additional VWL resale points two years ago and they have lost around $30 per point in value.

Bill

 

[Chuck S]

... therefore no way to gauge what value their contract will have in 10, 20, or 30 years.

When was there ever a way to gauge what something will be worth in 10, 20 or 30 years from now?

For ANY timeshare, the value is in the personal use of the property. Anyone who purchases any RTU limited lease time timeshare thinking there is going to be substantial resale value 10, 20 or 30 years down the road has not done their homework.

 

[Greysword]

Mark the calendar, as the reaction by the OP is priceless, in that it is the first of a (likely) long list of complainers as DVC moves forward with the anticipated tiered value system. We anticipated the system would separate memberships based on new benefits; instead, it seems DVD has decided to make the distinction based on restrictions (the only two actions thus far have been point use and now the availability of the cruise). Thus, the next volley will likely also be restriction based instead of intensives, so be prepared.

What current incentives offered by DVC would make you the MOST angry if you lost it due to purchasing points resale versus retail? What would you do if they decided to take that away?

This announcement is creating an exciting social science experiment, which can be viewed in different ways depending on the discipline employed (economics, sociology, psychology, and others).

I own almost 600 points. Almost all of them are resale purchased prior to the changes. I do own 120 direct points, which are worth half what I paid for them.

I totally agree with the Op. It is a DVC *Member's* Cruise. The Op is a member. I can see if he couldn't use his points to book, but he should be allowed to pay cash. The day that the purchaser of a resale is no longer a member, will be a very bad day for all of us. Because, no matter what any of us say, there just may be a day you need to sell. And I'd be angrier if I was a direct purchaser than a resale owner. At least I don't have as much investment to lose.

No they did not make it clear. When the new resale restrictions were announced they said you can't use your resale points for DCL, Disney collection, etc. They did not say you aren't considered a member in terms of a member cruise even if you want to pay cash.

ITA. If you have a member # you're a member at least in my book. I'm not happy about this new rule & it's not because it affects me. I just think it's wrong & unnecessary... They created this situation with their own greed & now they're going to punish us. Bad, bad call on their part.

I propose that the comments above are indicative of many reactions on here, and are missing the big picture completely.

This decision is likely primarily economically driven. DVC/DCL does not owe us a member's cruise. They do it to tap a reliable market for them in an effort to fill a ship during the off season for cruising. This is also why they don't offer it during the summer, as Annie and others have lamented. They don't need help filling the ships during the normal vacation time frame. However, they do need help during the hurricane and school seasons, thus they are tapping a reliable customer base to assist.

I am also interested in the common reaction on here, in that the we should have learned our lesson on DVC perks. The fervor we are now witnessing is the same as when valet parking was no longer free. The member's Cruise should be considered a perk instead of an entitlement, and like other perks the mouse giveth and the mouse taketh away with little to no warning. Be prepared, it will happen again.

The bottom line(s) are thus:
1) Walt Disney (with all its subsidiaries) is a company, and they will do what they need to remain in business and profitable (in that order). Their responsibility is to their shareholders, not us. It sucks, but we need to understand this in order to realize what is really occurring. The Member's Cruise may have helped sell a few points, but it is actually in place to help the cruise line bolster its profit margin.

2) We need to keep repeating rule #2 here in the Dis-DVC boards: all we pay for is a clean well kept room at our home resort; our membership is nothing more than that. Perks will come and perks will go, including the ability to stay at other DVC resorts. It seems harsh, but this is repeated so much on here and seems to be forgotten when something big happens, and we revert back to the magic we were promised.

3) Changes to our DVC membership are upon us. As has been discussed, it is probable that DVD is attempting to establish a tiered membership base. What this means is that those who purchase points via resale will have access to a different (and as seen thus far, much reduced) perks and benefits outside of their home resort. Members will have the equal status within their home resort, regardless where/how they purchased their points. However, outside of their home resorts is a different matter. A perk at your home resort (such as free video rentals) will remain the same for all, since it is based on monthly fees, but perks outside of this realm will likely be more restricted. Be prepared for more harsh restrictions (AP discounts, booking windows, etc)!

I had the same initial feelings as many on these boards. That said, once the initial shock wore off, it is fascinating to take a step back and look at what is really going on and how we (the masses) are reacting to this (relatively minor with a very small affect on the DVC membership whole) news. I can only imagine what will happen if DVC/DVD restricts booking between DVC resorts (especially new yet to be built ones) or if more segmentation of the population occurs based on number of points owned (only members with 500 or more direct purchase points can get on the Member Cruise).

 

[Brian Noble]

The more they restrictions they put on resales, the more they water down the value of direct sales.

You would think so, but in practice it does not appear to work that way with any other timeshare system that differentiates between direct and secondary-market purchasers---which is to say, almost all of them: Wyndham, WorldMark, Bluegreen, Marriott, etc. etc. etc.

Lack of ROFR has also caused resale prices to drop along with the current economy.

I suspect that if you look carefully at the data, you will see that the drop began long before ROFR was abandoned, and its abandonment did not significantly accelerate the rate of decline as a "knee in the curve". It's true that foreclosures have probably supplied Mickey with more inventory than he ever wanted at some of these resorts, but it's *also* true that there are a lot of completely "brand new" unsold points still to flog. As long as there are still unsold units, there's no need *at all* to ROFR anything. In fact, if DVC follows the same rules-of-thumb that most other timeshare systems do (about 1/2 of development cost is marketing, etc.) it will probably be more profitable to continue to build *new* resorts and sell them vs. ROFR *old* resorts and market those until secondary market prices fall significantly farther.

This decision is likely primarily economically driven. DVC/DCL does not owe us a member's cruise. They do it to tap a reliable market for them in an effort to fill a ship during the off season for cruising.

It's *also* to get a marketing opportunity to sell more DVC points into a set of people who are more willing to buy than the average DCL guest. Recent resale-only Members are not likely to ever buy full-freight points from Disney, so why invite them when you can invite someone who might?

 

[tammymacb]

I wonder if anyone has called yet that is a very small ( 25 point or so ) direct buyer( to supplement a larger original contract )? If you have *any* direct points, my guess is they'll let you book the cruise on cash. But, I'm still curious.

 

[wdrl]

The more they restrictions they put on resales, the more they water down the value of direct sales. Many (most?) people who have purchased a DVC membership do so with the idea that if they ever decide to sell, there will be some value to their membership. Sure, that value will go down as there is less time left on the contract, but it's a fairly steady decline. Ripping benefits out of resales (no matter how minimal the benefit) greatly accelerates that decline AND it makes their customers quite bitter. It will take a bit of time to see that ripple effect, but Disney is shooting themselves in the foot. Resale buyers will be spending much less at the Parks out of spite and when word gets widely spread, new sales will drop because there's no way to tell what they'll rip out next and therefore no way to gauge what value their contract will have in 10, 20, or 30 years.

It would be nice if there was any empirical data to support your statements that resale prices are falling because of the loss of exchange privileges. If you look at the data reported on Donald is #1's thread on resale activity, you'll see that resale prices have been declining since at least 2008, if not before. This is well before Disney announced any changes to the exchange privileges for resale owners.

Let me put it another way: If Disney reversed its policy and let resale owners use their points for the Adventure, Concierge, and Disney Collections, do you think that resales prices will go up $5, $10, or $15 a point? I don't think so.

I respectfully disagree that resale buyers "will be spending much less at the Parks out of spite." Why buy into a Disney timeshare if you plan on boycotting the Parks? As others have said, the value of a timeshare is in its use and enjoyment.

 

[Greysword]

I wonder if anyone has called yet that is a very small ( 25 point or so ) direct buyer( to supplement a larger original contract )? If you have *any* direct points, my guess is they'll let you book the cruise on cash. But, I'm still curious.

This is a good point, and I was curious myself. The way it is written, it leaves room to exclude anyone with resale points, but I'd be more taken back if this was enforced. That said, Disney does employ ambiguity on purpose.

 

[Sammie]

Jim Lewis has been gone for several months, but he still gets the blame. I guess Claire Bilby's honeymoon continues

Actually it is has not been several months, and with Disney things put in action take months to change.

Ms. Bilby did not officially take over the adminstration of DVC until recently.

And she may be in favor of the procedures that Jim wanted, I don't know.

 

[Simba's Mom]

Those cruises book very fast and every year there are alot of disappointed members that don't get on the cruise. My guess is they want to reward those who buy from them direct. I guess one cannot blame them for that.

ITA! When I read your post, I was reminded of a few years ago when everyone was supposed to call on a certain day, then there was a lottery to see who would get to go. As the membership grows, the ability to book the member's cruise probably will get increasingly more difficult. I have a feeling that if the situation were reversed-where someone got the cruise who "only" bought resale, while a "direct-buy" member was unable to book, that "direct-buy" member would be complaining just as loud.
However, I too would be interested to know how many points you need "direct-buy" to be eligible for the members' cruise. Like a lot of people, we have a combination of points, some direct-buy, some we bought resale. And to make it stickier, we sold our original purchase and bought resale because DVC didn't sell at the resort we decided (after we bought) that we wanted. Only one of our small ***-ons is direct buy, so I have a feeling it's just a good thing DH has no desire to cruise!

 

[Dean]

I think you are all missing the point here. Disney only wants direct sales members onboard so they can direct sell them more points onboard. They know that if you purchased AKV on a resell at $60 they are not going to be able to convince you to purchase more points at $120.

If you think Disney is "only" doing the cruise to thank you, you mistaken, they are charging you more to come with the intentions of selling you on more points.

Just using your post to make a point.

IMO, there is a difference between restricting the use of points outside the club and establishing resale members as second class citizens. As many of you can vouch for, my orientation is very pro management. And while DVD is technically (probably) within their rights, IMO, this crosses over the line between drawing a distinction between resale and retail buyers and simply being rude to members. I can't think of a parallel in the rest of the timeshare world at this time, including those who are far more aggressive with VIP benefits than is DVC. Likely the closest I can come is Bluegreen's decision to not offer new benefits to existing members unless they did an add on. Jut my opinion.

 

[MiaSRN62]

I think you are all missing the point here. Disney only wants direct sales members onboard so they can direct sell them more points onboard. They know that if you purchased AKV on a resell at $60 they are not going to be able to convince you to purchase more points at $120.

If you think Disney is "only" doing the cruise to thank you, you mistaken, they are charging you more to come with the intentions of selling you on more points.

Respectfully, totally never thought the Member Cruise was for thanking Members. I am absolutely aware they try to sell. They try to do this big time on regular cruises when you attend the DVC "brunches" and "get togethers". Just attended one this past October on the Magic.
But it's not inconceivable to think a current MEMBER who purchased on resale initially would not be interested in a new contract ? They are assuming a lot by this I think and at the same time, excluding a valid portion of people who are considered DVC MEMBERS.
While I admit, a resale Member may not be as inclined to purchase direct, I also believe LOTS of direct purchase Members probably have no intention whatsover of purchasing anything else on these cruises either.
I, personally, don't think the Member cruises are that big of a deal---but it's the principle of the matter that if one is permitted to pay cash to go on this Member cruise then ALL Members should be allowed to do this. It would be different if points were required but that doesn't seem to be the case. Rather an assumption is being made that resale purchase Members would have no interest in a direct purchase. Financial situations in households change all the time.

Dean :IMO, there is a difference between restricting the use of points outside the club and establishing resale members as second class citizens. As many of you can vouch for, my orientation is very pro management. And while DVD is technically (probably) within their rights, IMO, this crosses over the line between drawing a distinction between resale and retail buyers and simply being rude to members.

Agreed Dean.

 

[WilsonFlyer]

Isn't this the first (of maybe many) lines in the sand?

Up until this point, all restrictions were on the points only and what they could do. For what seems to be the first time, now there is a restriction on what you can do as a MEMBER based on your points and where they came from.

Am I missing something here?

I agree that DVD is probably within their rights to do so. After all, it's their cruise and they can certainly restrict it in any way they choose. This just seems like the first real blow to a truly tiered membership.

Am I the only one that sees it this way?

 

[Dean]

This just seems like the first real blow to a truly tiered membership.

Am I the only one that sees it this way?

To me it goes way beyond that. Frankly, I can't think of another system (Marriott, Wyndham, Bluegreen, etc) that has a tiered VIP system that I feel would restrict a member cruise to only a subset of members. All of them would restrict the ability to use points to pay for it. To me this goes way beyond simply a tiered system or qualified/non-qualified points issue. In my book this is akin to having non qualified points owners not being able to use the toll free number and only use the regular 407 number or not being able to buy the DP options. I'm having a hard time believing they really intended it this way and am optimistic that we'll see a reversal. I'm hoping that it's really a misunderstanding related to interpretation and not a directive from upper management. IMO, if this stands, it's a very bad indicator for non qualified members suggesting you haven't seen anything yet.

 

[Worktoplay]

I find reading this thread very stressful. I began my DVC purchases in 1996 and now have 600 points, I always borrow from the next year and I have never traded out of Disney. I feel the restriction on the buyers from the resale market really devalued my investment. I have always believed what I continued to buy was an investment. The downside of disney was always the 42 year or 50 end. Marriott and others you can deed to your kids. I still thought Disney was worth it, but now.....I wish I bought at Marriott and vacationed at Disney. I would at least still feel like I made an investment and not just prepaid for my vacations.

Back to the topic at hand, I think its a disgrace you can't attend a member cruise. If your not a member, I guess you don't have dues to pay! not lol

 

[pyrxtc]

I'm not a fan of the 3 and 4 night cruises (too short!)

Also...the points needed for the DVC member cruise are more than what they are for the 7 night Fantasy cruise we are going on in March 2013.

I just looked at that that JIC, It would cost me way more to go on that.

 

[kyle051777]

To me it goes way beyond that. Frankly, I can't think of another system (Marriott, Wyndham, Bluegreen, etc) that has a tiered VIP system that I feel would restrict a member cruise to only a subset of members. All of them would restrict the ability to use points to pay for it. To me this goes way beyond simply a tiered system or qualified/non-qualified points issue. In my book this is akin to having non qualified points owners not being able to use the toll free number and only use the regular 407 number or not being able to buy the DP options. I'm having a hard time believing they really intended it this way and am optimistic that we'll see a reversal. I'm hoping that it's really a misunderstanding related to interpretation and not a directive from upper management. IMO, if this stands, it's a very bad indicator for non qualified members suggesting you haven't seen anything yet.

Dean I could not agree with you more. I hope this is all a misunderstanding but I am certainly not holding my breath.

 

[Lil' Grumpy]

yes mr. moore, i think you are on target.

just my opinion, it isn't a timeshare company but the dvc. it
something they build { image } for the purpose of selling. recently
the resales people have been cutting in to their profits &
spreading the "word" all over the boards. some even took joy
by throwing it back @ the guides. i think this got their attentions,
and they have been working on actions to redirect new sales back
to the "home base".

i haven't read how the resales people are going to sell their shares
since they can no longer go on member cruises. not one. i only
mentioned this because if they all rushed & sold out that might
get their attention to re-think. [ when i look the big picture,
i can see the values of both -resales/direct would have for the
dvc well being. ] but i also think many were forced to sell because
of their fiances , not for profit. i know we didn't buy in thinking
to resale for profit. we brought it for our current & future disney vacations.

our biggest disappointment is trading with rci. we won't
being do it so our blt points will be kept there. it seem way out of
balance & our feedback is to dump it. or make some new "adjustments".
dvc to us, is the real prize not the other way around. so we 're
just redoing our previous goals. besides we have mutiple friends
with timeshares to work with.

resales are a wonderful bargain but if something sounds too good,
then there are going to be future changes. even disney can't sale
their image without it have some true grit.

all i see, the organization putting their house into proper order. i know
we were shocked by the system after buying 3 contacts. then
reading here, seeing how some insiders were misusing their positions,
made us put a hold on any further buying. nor do i think we are
the only ones.

however, the changes we are hoping for , has to do with using our blt
points @ our home resort. the new system allows them to recognize
these differences then that where i think they will make great
progress...including selling direct- "you will have the first dibs on
your requests @ your home resorts." i call it bringing back the
magic!


surely there are those with these holdings, that can recognize that
dvc has many, many options they can rely on , to boost sales?
[ i know i have been giving them our wish list}

i don't think the talk about tier levels matter when you are vacationing.
i also think i would be upset if i was just a resales buyer but i would
still go to disney. we met dvc owners after our member cruise.
original owners, that were blocked out after last year. if you
were a owner that brought dvc , wouldn't you feel cheated that
resales were able to booked over you? exactly who should be more
entitled? even if i had purchased resales...i would vote those
buying direct deserved it more. but if they are some left after a
few months then they should be opened up. now if i was a dvc
manager with authority, i think offering the member cruises
for buying a large amounts of points would be a great way to sale
new points. especially with 2 sailings.

 

[keaster]

I just looked at that that JIC, It would cost me way more to go on that.

Oops, sorry! Let me clarify...it actually is costing only couple points less to do the 7-night. We are sailing in a 5a cabin:

DVC 3 & 4 night: 217 points/adult, $846 cash for 1 child
7-night Fantasy: 216 points/adulst, $823 cash for 1 child

So I'd rather take the longer cruise if I'm using that many points!

 

[bobbiwoz]

If it stands that members who bought resale after March can't use cash to go on the member cruise, I will write a letter to the organization against that policy. I do think that members are members, (I understand that points are not equal any more) and I hope that right now we are looking at something that is not going to hold.

Bobbi