Please explain DVC...camping only!

[TheFlame]

First of all, I don't understand how the DVC works, points and such. There are DVC booths everywhere down here. It just looks like a timeshare thing to me, that everyone regrets buying into in the end. Can someone explain this in layman's terms?

We have seen several campers parked at the resorts this week and read about people on this board staying at resorts and leaving the camper at home. Do people buy this to use only at Fort Wilderness?

How does this benefit a family that only camps when at Disney and why would you leave the camper at home or in a resort parking lot to use DVC? Isn't it almost always cheaper to camp, especially if you are a member of DVC? Is this more of a status thing than something to save you money on Disney vacations?

For us non-DVC members, I know that camping is the least expensive option for staying on property, except maybe when they offer free dining. We have crunched the numbers many times when the new offers come out and every time it is a wash to stay at the campground vs. the value resorts, and when it comes down to it, I just want my own bed. I find it hard to leave the camper at home and stay at a hotel/resort of any kind except when we just have to. For me, no matter how many stars there are you don't know who has been sleeping in that bed?!?!?

Just curious and looking for info.....

 

[bigdisneydaddy]

We owned DVC for about 6 years, I am by no means an expert but I will relate some of my personal observations.

At the time we bought into DVC we did not have a camper.
We bought the camper about 1 year before we sold the DVC
We sold the DVC because our "fun budget" was shrinking and by family vote the camper stayed and the DVC went.
I made money on my DVC investment, this is without factoring the value of the rooms we got while we were members. Once you factor the value of the room it made me a very good return on investment.
Dont forget that there are dues associated with the number of points you buy, this will create a monthly burden.
I would not purchase DVC if I was not going to use the hotels/DVC resorts.
IMHO the value is lost if you use it to stay at resorts other than DVC.
I would buy into DVC again if I had the money.
I would buy through a resale company not Disney (you get the same thing and the transaction is secure and simple)
The points system can be tricky at first. In the simplest terms, you purchase XX number of points (say 150) you receive those points on a fixed month every year (depending on what use year you buy, for us it didnt matter) you can reserve rooms before you actually have the points, you make ressies for next June and your points allotment comes in February, we did this all the time.
The room guide shows exactly the number of points required for every room during every time of year, obviously holidays are higher, if the rates go up during a period at the resorts the points are typically more.
Say you want a studio at Boardwalk for a week in February, the guide shows that a standard view from Sunday through Thursday is 15 point per night (15 x 5 is 75 point) then the weekend nights are 25 each (2 x 25) so your whole stay would cost you 125 points.

I would not be intimidated by the folks at the sales kiosk, they are very low pressure and will be happy to answer your questions. The walk through at the resorts is also low key and no pressure.

Our first purchase was for 150 points at Boardwalk and I did everything over the phone, they Fed-ex'd the papers and that was it.

Hope that helps
Scott

 

[Shan-man]

I'm still a little foggy on this, and have looked in the DVC boards and can't seem to find a straight-talking primer on the subject. So I hope you don't mind answering a couple more questions. I understand that with your membership you get so many points per year (150 in your example). And to become a member you plunk down a large sum of money (or finance it), a sum equivalent to diesel coach? So, aren't you paying a mortgage note roughly equivalent to what you would pay to stay in a deluxe resort without DVC? If so, where is the benefit, other than the fact that the price is locked in (and so are you)? I know I must be missing something, since you said you sold and came out ahead. Thanks!

 

[clkelley]

If you total it out over the time period, (Your initial investment, plus your dues) it usually equates to getting deluxe Studio rooms at the cost of a Rack Rate Value, 1 BR Villas at the cost of a Moderate, etc.

Quite honestly, while the room locations and the rooms are nice, I really don't like the amenities at the Deluxe Resorts/villas. The lack of a full blown food court for a quick breakfast in the morning is a turnoff for me.

I stay at values when not taking the camper, and take my camper as much as possible.

While the actual points used at the campground is lower, the "value" of the points used is terrible.

6 points a weeknight at the campground versus 8 points a weeknight during value season at OKW for a Studio room. (My figures may not be exactly right, but the comparison is close).

Also HAVING to have a Disney budget for the dues is also a turnoff for me. While we will Probably have many Disney vacations every year, if for some reason we don't have the money, I'm not forced to keep paying it. We just won't go to Disney for awhile until we do have the money again.

Also, the Points for weekends are MUCH higher (usually double). While I'm still working, we are still most definitely weekend warriors for the most part. To get the most value for your points, you need to have a lot of Sun-Thursday stays.

 

[ftwildernessguy]

I think if you go to Disney frequently and like the idea of staying at a DVC resort and don't mind the lack of maid service, DVC is okay. But personally, I have never seen the value no matter how much I chug the numbers. Not only is there the initial cost of the points, conveniently financed over a number of years, but the maintenance fees jack up the cost, and then you really aren't getting any more than a 40 year membership in a club that reverts back to Disney. Despite what the people on the DVC boards think, they really don't "own" anything but a membership in a club.

 

[kmurawski]

I wouldn't trade my DVC points for the world. This year we had the opportunity to stay in a 1 bedroom unit at AKV for 10 days in June, bought AP since we will be at FW for Christmas and NY (cash). Having points is also allowing us a once in a lifetime opportunity to stay in a luxury hotel in Washington DC this summer to celebrate our son's graduation.

I consider myself to have the best of both worlds. Yes, our PU is financed and the DVC is financed but the interest is tax deductible and both will be paid off in a few years.

Either one sees the benefit of DVC, or they don't. Being Disney fanatics and visiting WDW once a year or every other year this has been a benefit to us. We also like the flexibility that we can exchange points to visit other non-Disney places such as Washington DC or even take an African safari on points. In a few years DVC will even have a resort in Hawaii which our family can't wait to visit.

Everyone has different priorities. This was just right for our family.

 

[bigdisneydaddy]

I'm still a little foggy on this, and have looked in the DVC boards and can't seem to find a straight-talking primer on the subject. So I hope you don't mind answering a couple more questions. I understand that with your membership you get so many points per year (150 in your example). And to become a member you plunk down a large sum of money (or finance it), a sum equivalent to diesel coach? So, aren't you paying a mortgage note roughly equivalent to what you would pay to stay in a deluxe resort without DVC? If so, where is the benefit, other than the fact that the price is locked in (and so are you)? I know I must be missing something, since you said you sold and came out ahead. Thanks!

Basically I had it for a period of time, I sold it for more than I paid for it which means the cost of my dues (you could subtract the modest profit form that amount) got me a room in a Deluxe Disney hotel roughly for 1/5th what I would have paid cash for it.
It requires a lot of soul searching and number crunching. Carol makes a very good point about an off year, if you didnt have the money you wouldnt go, thats not an option with your DVC dues. (which BTW are deductible as property taxes here in MI, consult your tax specialist... LOL)

 

[disneystick]

DVC has also upgraded our vacation. No matter how hard I try to save up money for a vacation/Disney trip...when it comes down to it, I would never pay more then to stay at the value resort or campgrounds. I would make up all kind of excuses of why it was foolish to even stay at a mod. and where else I can spend the money on vacation.

However, with my DVC, like the previous poster wrote, I have had great wonderful vacations and I don't have to worry about where I stay. I went from 1 star vacations to 5 stars luxury. I've stayed at the Historic Fairmont hotel in SF. A hotel in Monterrey, CA, where my room balcony was right over the Pacific ocean and I saw otters and sea lions play right in front of me. Also, at DisneyLand Grand Cal, and DisneyLand Hotel in CA, and of course many times at the BCV.

I've even used my pts. to stay at the Fort in which I've taken my girl scout troop, saving them quite a lot of money this past spring break.

2 summers ago, it would have cost me almost $900 per night times 10 nights to stay at the BCV 2 Bedroom which would have total almost $9000. I was able to take my 6 yr. old niece and her parents (my brother and his wife) along with my mother and my immediate family to Disney. My brother thought I too was crazy for buying into DVC. After he saw the figures and what type of places we got to stay at....he was no longer a "Doubting Thomas" We got our money's worth even with the added maintance fee for that year.

Being a camper for the past 17 yrs. and still in Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts and Venture Crew...so tent camping is not a problem for us. And would I love to own a RV. YES!!!! of course. But we chose to own a part of Disney instead. The vacation places are not just limited to Disney property, but thru out the world and even in our beautiful country.

I don't see that buying into DVC was going to save me money. I was going to already spend that amount thru out the years. Instead I saw investing into DVC was going to give me and my family many new luxury experiences while vacationing and the opportunity to share it with loved ones.

I also agree that owning DVC is not for everyone, but, it is for my family.

 

[bama_ed]

I'm with Jim on this one. I looked hard at it and passed.

I've crunched the numbers too and it literally doesn't pay to do DVC. It only saves you money if you do a premium resort trip annually or something like it someplace else (every year for almost 40 years). Prices have generally been declining (as you would expect) as the number of remaining years on the deed decline as well. Plus having to pay the dues which are around $5 a point now.

To illustrate: you want to get a one-bedroom villa at Wilderness Lodge DVC for a week. Let's say you want to go in the spring break-through summer time frame. Most dates would require at least 250 points you would have to own - so that's $1,250 a year in maintenance fees (averages out to almost $180 a night). Those 250 points at WL villas now sell for about $80 each so you dropped $20,000 on day 1. If you use a straight line depreciation over 40 years that's another $500 for that week (another $70 a day). So now you are committed to spending at least $250 a day for that room. You get the point. You pay these costs whether you go or not.

If BigDisneyDaddy made a profit on his transaction that is rare. Plus people start altering their vacation plans to try to optimize DVC rules. Then you can worry about the rules: staying in your HOME resort versus another resort on property; banking points, borrowing points, renting points; waiting for your use year month to roll around, trading points, yada yada....

People buy DVC based on emotions unless you're one of the minority that travels "deluxe" annually (and are committed to doing so for the next 40 years). People want to own a piece of the magic which is understandable; it just doesn't make good financial sense for some buyers - it makes great financial sense for Disney.

And if you financed your DVC purchase then it's even more of a loser financially speaking. But some decisions get made with the heart and not the head.

Bama ED

 

[TheFlame]

I really appreciate all of the responses and would like to have more input if there are others out there.

I still don't really understand how it works, but maybe that is the trick. I don't want to spend more than I can afford on a vacation and from what I am reading this is what people are doing. I think it is a really bad idea to finance a vacation. I guess I was dumb enough to think the people were plopping down $18k on the spot....

We visited the Animal Kingdom Lodge last night and I wasn't really impressed. I know that the outside was really nicely decorated but most rooms(the ones going for $300 right now or who knows how many points) still only have one room, two beds and a table and 4 chairs. What kind of value do you get staying there? What are the benefits of staying here versus a value? I don't see that most people can afford the DVC, that is why I said it seems like a time share aka a scheme. You don't really own anything.

I still would like to understand the points system better, buying and sharing. We won't be buying in, I am just curious.

Thanks so much!

Thanks bama ed, that helps! : )

 

[hematite153]

While I agree that the majority of people on this thread (inc. the OP) do not sound like people for whom DVC would be a good investment there does seem to be some difference in people's calculations.

I bought DVC 3 years ago and crunched the numbers then. At that point, assuming a 5% increase in dues every year (which is more than they have been increasing) over the course of the contract the total cost of initial purchase plus dues worked out such that a DVC studio would cost me about the same as a value resort. Now, only 3 years later, rates on the hotel rooms have gone up such that I can get a DVC studio and pay for the DDP (for 2 adults) for the cost of a room only night in a value resort. Similarly, a night in a 2bdrm DVC unit costs me less than a night in a single room at a deluxe resort.

Until I joined DVC I never even considered a deluxe resort--they were way too expensive. But, now I can stay in deluxe resorts but pay for a value resort.

Of course, this only works if you can afford to actually buy your DVC contract outright at the beginning. If you are going to finance the purchase then the initial cost of the points becomes a lot higher and it may not work out the same way.

If you would drive your camper to wdw anyway and you prefer to sleep in your camper than in a hotel room then the Fort sounds like a much better option than DVC. But, if you're driving a car and pitching a tent...my cost for a DVC studio is roughly the same as for the tent/pop-up site.

 

[Minnie&Mickey]

I don't want to spend more than I can afford on a vacation and from what I am reading this is what people are doing. I think it is a really bad idea to finance a vacation. I guess I was dumb enough to think the people were plopping down $18k on the spot....

We visited the Animal Kingdom Lodge last night and I wasn't really impressed. I know that the outside was really nicely decorated but most rooms(the ones going for $300 right now or who knows how many points) still only have one room, two beds and a table and 4 chairs. What kind of value do you get staying there? What are the benefits of staying here versus a value? I don't see that most people can afford the DVC, that is why I said it seems like a time share aka a scheme. You don't really own anything.

I have been a DVC member since 1998, so please keep in mind that I bought when it was less expensive than it is now. I think you might be making a lot of assumptions about the people that buy into DVC. I don't believe that most people are spending more than they can afford on a DVC membership, plus not everyone is financing it either. My husband and I looked into purchasing a membership back when they first started selling, but I didn't feel that it was something that we could financially swing at that time, so we didn't buy in. As the years went by, and we were making frequent trips to WDW (usually 2 trips a year), our financial situation changed, and we eventually decided to buy in. We have added on twice since then (through resale, no financing) and it was never a finanacial burden for us...we wouldn't have bought in if it was going to be. We have only used our membership at DVC resorts, so I can't say if an exchange is a good value for the money. DVC has enabled us to take our family to Disney World several times a year (we drive, so we don't have the expense of airfare) and stay at beautiful accomodations that we could never have afforded if we weren't using DVC points. We have taken several trips where we stayed in a 3 bedroom Grand Villa (such as last Christmas...the unit would have cost us $1000 per night had we paid cash for it...that is far more than we pay in dues). When you went to the Animal Kingdom Lodge, did you look at a DVC room or a regular room at the Lodge? There is a big difference between a regular hotel room and a 1, 2 or 3 bedroom unit at a DVC resort...no comparison at all!

However, if you love camping and enjoy staying at the Fort, a DVC membership might not be for you. I think that if you use DVC points at the Fort, it is treated kind of like an exchange since you are not using your points to stay in a DVC resort (I could be wrong though...I'm sure someone here can explain how it works). We just recently camped at the Fort for the first time and fell in love with it. It was a trial run for us because we want to purchase an RV so that we can take our dog on vacation with us (which we can't do in a DVC unit) and we went to the Fort to see if we liked camping. We LOVED the Fort! We can't wait to go again. It made us realize that our next purchase will be an RV and we are actively searching for the perfect unit. I read this board religiously for any information that will help us with our purchase. We will probably sell one of our memberships once we buy the RV, but only because once we start taking trips in the RV, we will have too many points left to use in a year...letting them go to waste would be a big financial mistake.

So my point is, the DVC is not for everyone and if you already have an RV and like to camp at the Fort, it might not make financial sense to buy in. But for us, it was one of the best decisions we ever made and if we sold our membership tomorrow, even adding in our annual dues, we would come out ahead.

 

[Shan-man]

Ok, I'm really getting confused. I know NOTHING about time-shares in general, and know a smidge about DVC from one conversation with a guy at the booth in WL, and from the Disney's Best Kept Secret show on DVC, and a few mentions on the DIS Unplugged. As I understand it, you are buying into the club at a certain level (number of points) and at a certain home resort (which allows you to book for that resort further in advance) but can use your points at any DVC resort. Annually you are allotted your points, according to your level of participation (say 150 points), and those can be used for resort stays, banked, or rented to others. What I don't really understand is, what is the relationship between point-level and the cost of membership? Is it a simple 150 points x $80 per point? That doesn't seem to jibe with what I've heard about BLT memberships costing $140,000. As I said, I'm very confused and cannot seem to find any straight talk with dollar amounts and concrete examples.

BTW, I am not one of those looking to pick apart your rationale for joining DVC. It seems to have a very faithful following, and I want to know more. But I am not brave enough to air my stupidity on the DVC boards, so thanks for meeting me on friendly ground! LOL

 

[hematite153]

What I don't really understand is, what is the relationship between point-level and the cost of membership? Is it a simple 150 points x $80 per point? That doesn't seem to jibe with what I've heard about BLT memberships costing $140,000. As I said, I'm very confused and cannot seem to find any straight talk with dollar amounts and concrete examples.

Yes, and no.

When you purchase a contract there will be a cost per point (i.e. 150 pts X $80/pt) and many people look only at that piece of information. However, there are other costs involved: yearly maintenance fees, closing costs, etc.

In our case, I calculated the "cost" of a point by:
1) Calculate all initial purchase costs (you'll usually have to estimate closing, but, you can get close)
2) Calculate lifetime maintenance fees. I did a historical analysis of maintenance fees and found that they had gone up 2.5-4.5% per year since OKW first opened. So, I assumed an annual increase of 5% per year (figuring that it's better to overestimate than underestimate).
3) Add 1 & 2
4) Determine the total number of lifetime points you will get
5) Divide 3 by 4

We purchased an SSR resale and found that our cost per point (using the above) was a little under $6/pt. Some people would advocate also dividing by 1.13 in order to accurately compare DVC "prices" to CRO prices which you have to add tax to.

Hope this helps.

 

[kmurawski]

True, DVC is not for everyone. A large part has to do with lifestyle, finances and basically where you are in your life. It happens to meet our family's needs. We have been DVC members since OKW opened. Last year we bought a second membership at AKV. As much as I am looking forward to FW we have never been there before. The way we are looking at things right now is that we vacation at a DVC resort every other year (because we can bank points) and do more camping on the opposite year. Our camping though is usually within a 2 hour drive of Chicago so the Fort is not the usual. That could change though in a couple of weeks....we'll have to wait and see.

We chose AKV for nature. It's wonderful to be out on the balcony any time of day and looking at giraffes or other African animals. I don't imagine myself at BLT. So camping goes with the nature side of our family.

DH & I have talked about retiring (in quite a few years) and buying a motorhome. At that point DVC probably fit into our plans but by then our son will be old enough to benefit from it and, if he has one, travel there with his family.

Anyhow, I made a long story to say that this was the best choice for US. It is not a time share but rather a lifetime of future, family memories.

 

[bama_ed]

Shan-man,

Let me help. You buy points to get into DVC as many as you want/need. Points are sold for specific resorts and only become available in specific months. In my previous example, Villas at Wilderness Lodge (VWL) may have resales available - here is a link to some http://www.dvc-resales.com/dvclisting-wilderness.cfm Note that the points only become available to you annually in the month shown under the column "Use Year". Think of it this way: the "Use Year" is the month Disney deposits the points in your account each year. Let's say it's December. In December 2007 you got 200 point that you had paid for. You can use those points up during 2008 up to your 200 point limit. But once they are used up, you have to wait until December 2008 when Disney deposits 200 points again in your account and the cycle starts over. But the rules allow you to manage around this cut-and-dried limit of so many points per year.

You can save (or "bank") up to a year's points (I think that's the limit) or get an advance (or "borrow") up to a year's points to do really big things that might require, say, up to 400 points. Things like use your points on a Disney cruise for the family or a week in a villa that sleeps 12. Look at the listings above and you can see that many of them have been banked or borrowed against. You might get points cheap but if the seller has already borrowed a years points you might have to wait a year before you get any points deposited.

How many points do you need? Depends on the resort, time of year, and size of accomodations. Again here is the VWL point chart as an example: http://www.dvc-resales.com/Wilderness/index.htm. Based on your travel patterns and habits you can pick a number of points. If buying from Disney directly the minimum number of points is 150 to buy initially. Resellers can sell smaller alotments. All resellers have to submit the proposed contract to Disney before the sale is completed. Disney can choose to buy the points back themselves at the seller's rate (called the "right of first refusal") which they do at times to keep certain prices points on the points but the market has become conditioned to know pretty well what Disney will allow or not.

Purchasing points (either through Disney or a reseller) is a pretty straight forward transaction. Say a resale is available for 200 points at VWL at $80/point the purchase transaction literally is $16,000 (plus a few hundred dollars for closing costs, fees). Disney is notified that you are now the owner of 200 points with your home resort as VWL with your use month of December. Off you go.

There is some logic to picking your home resort. With your home resort you can make a ressie up to 11 months in advance; if you want to stay at a different DVC resort other than your home, you can only book 7 months in advance. The villas themselves are very nice and come with full kitchens (the studios have kitchenettes I think). A one bedroom has a bedroom and bath then a seperate combined living/dining/kitchen room. Some accomodations can sleep up to 12 at Old Key West.

Each DVC resort is sold for your use for a certain number of years. For example, VWL memberships expire in 2042, 34 years from now. Each time a resort is built their clock starts ticking. Terms vary but most are in the 40-50 year range. Obviously 10 years from now, you will only have 24 years of use left at VWL. Generally speaking, longer time frames means points are more expensive.

Maintenance fees (to cut the grass, pay the property taxes, unclog the sink, etc) are $4-5 per point per year - it varies by resort. You pay that annually regardless of how you use the points. So in our VWL say at $5 that's $1,000 a year (Actually I think VWL is more like $4.80 but the math is easier at $5).

In the previous examples people use them to have family down for Christmas - it's essentially means you are paying for their room. Of course the accomodations are very nice . Question is are you going to do that or something like it every year for 40 years?

Whatever you decide is up to you!

Bama ED

 

[Donna]

What an interesting discussion! I've been a DVC member since 1996. Way back then, i bought in for only $63.65 per point (250 contract). I added subsequent contracts at OKW and HH for even less ($48) per point because i got a CM discount at the time. Back then and right up until we bought the RV, DVC worked for us. it still DOES work for us, just doesn't fit our lifestyle anymore. I sold 2 contracts and kept one for the discounts ALONE! I sold for way more than i paid for it cause its a Disney product and in high demand.

One advantage to DVC that i haven't seen mentioned is, once you buy in, your POINTS PER NIGHT never go up, where as hotel rates do. If they are raised for a given season, they will be lowered for another season, they will always balance out to the same. Also, you never pay hotel taxes and you will never have additional person charges for your room. Another advantage, where else can you take a Disney cruise for $95? that is the exchange fee for using points on the cruise. i also love the $100 off an AP perk.

I realize using points at the fort isn't the best value. it's not too bad though. i WOULD get a better value for them at, say, OKW. I could rent for $10 a point but it is 9 pts for sun-thurs and the cash rate is $83 at the fort so i'm not feeling i'm over charged that much. Renting can be a pain and its risky.

If i choose to not use them at the fort, I can go to HH and not take the RV and enjoy the disney resort there, which we've always loved.

My argument for buying DVC has always been, if you are going to disney anyways and stayed in a deluxe resort, DVC will pay for itself eventually. When we bought, we financed for 10 years but paid it off way earlier than that. My $5,000 grand floridian vacation i took the year before i bought DVC would have paid HALF of my purchase price! I always regretted not buying sooner.

no, its definitely not for everyone and like i said before, it still IS for me, just not with the high number of points i had at one time. heck with almost 500 points, i could stay at the fort for over two months, lol.

 

[ftwildernessguy]

So looking back at The Flame's original post re. DVC points for campers, it appears that buying into DVC membership for someone who only camps at FW while at Disney is probably not a good "investment". My last trip to FW cost me about 500 bucks for 10 days. I am not including food or transportation costs since even DVC members have to pay for this. If anybody can show me how joining DVC will allow me to camp at FW for less than this, then sign me up. Otherwise, I will continue to pay my regular campground costs and still get my "lifetime of family memories", but at a significant savings.

 

[hematite153]

So looking back at The Flame's original post re. DVC points for campers, it appears that buying into DVC membership for someone who only camps at FW while at Disney is probably not a good "investment". ...

I think you've figured this out correctly.

There are periodic rumours about a DVC loop at the Fort (or even a 2nd campground that would be DVC). If that were ever to come about I bet you'd be able to save money, but, I think they seem to have decided to stick with deluxe resorts, at least for now. (Of course, if some of the Fort regulars were to talk about how they'd like a camping DVC, it might get Disney thinking.)

 

[Donna]

So looking back at The Flame's original post re. DVC points for campers, it appears that buying into DVC membership for someone who only camps at FW while at Disney is probably not a good "investment". My last trip to FW cost me about 500 bucks for 10 days. I am not including food or transportation costs since even DVC members have to pay for this. If anybody can show me how joining DVC will allow me to camp at FW for less than this, then sign me up. Otherwise, I will continue to pay my regular campground costs and still get my "lifetime of family memories", but at a significant savings.

i would say thats a good assessment! just like buying in to dvc to exchange OUT to other resorts outside disney isn't really the best value either. i remember TIGGERINBAMA saying she bought dvc pretty much just for the fort but i think most of us that have dvc and camp already had dvc before camping and just use it to extend our cash reservations longer. i like to do a week on cash and a week on points.

I forgot to mention, when you use dvc at the fort, you can book any type of site you want for the same number of points. you can get a partial, full or premium site, all for the same points. when paying cash, there is a difference in price. at least it is like that for 2008. I have to take a closer look at the 2009 point charts.