You wish you could report people renting rooms 10 months out?

[Sandisw]

They could define commercial use as any proceeds in excess of $500. My only point was they used wiggle words in the POS to control the product as they saw fit.

As an owner, I don’t think proceeds in excess of $500 would meet the standard for commercial purposes. and be a violation of the contract.

So, again, legally they have to balance that because we have the express ability to rent points. That is why the definition of 20 was probably chosen because legal decided that was a sweet spot for reviewing an account.

 

[Genie+]

They do have the ability to define commercial. But they also have a POS that says you have personal use and personal use is already defined to include “owners, guests of owners, and renters.

They can’t come back now and change what that means without it being a material change to the contract..which required a vote.

So, commercial purposes is the part not defined and up to the discretion of Disney. But again, they have to include what would be reasonable to be seen as renting for commercial purposes..

That makes sense. Basically can only approach from the commercial side and how they choose to define.

Cornell - The term “used for commercial purposes” means the carriage of persons or property for any fare, fee, rate, charge or other consideration, or directly or indirectly in connection with any business, or other undertaking intended for profit.

 

[Pooh12863]

As an owner, I don’t think proceeds in excess of $500 would meet the standard for commercial purposes. and be a violation of the contract.

So, again, legally they have to balance that because we have the express ability to rent points. That is why the definition of 20 was probably chosen because legal decided that was a sweet spot for reviewing an account.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

For the record I have no problem with people renting their points, I'm battling 1000's of faceless people every time a try to book, may the fastest internet win. LOL

 

[DonMacGregor]

"Bad" depends on how you view the list. Of all those listed, there are only four, one BWV standard studio reservation, and two Riviera Tower and one standard view studio reservations, that members who own the particular resorts may not have been able to get at 11-months out for the times provided, and even if there were no renters those rooms would have still been difficult to get at 11-months out for those times.

The example was simply the sheer number of confirmed reservations being offered by one member, from a Facebook group populated by many similar posts.

 

[drusba]

I'm not mad. I'm just stating a fact as it applied to me as I've tried booking. It's not wrong to wish for success or to talk about it.



You can add Boardwalk View to the list now. And even at times, garden view. I was eventually able to get a combined garden view and boardwalk view split reservation in late November/early December. Garden view first and then a few BW view showed up. January has been a no go, so I'm using my Beach Club Villa points and still trying to get something else.

Someone mentioned 2 step authentication - didn't they try this in November and it flopped? Would it help with booking? Are bots beating some of us out?

The BWV issue appears worse than usual in fall 2023 and now 2024, and at times now even including difficulty in getting pool/garden view rooms, because of a unique refurb problem. All the boardwalk view rooms were taken out of service for much of the fall season and thus could not be reserved at all, and now the standard views have been taken out of service for January 1, 2024 and, so far, every date thereafter in 2024 that is 11 months out (an extra day keeps getting added to the reservation system daily). Likely, those are for external work that will take place, but if those actually involve internal refurbs, then a lot of pool/garden views have also been taken out of service for those times because DVC always closes rooms on both sides of a hallway when doing internal room refurbs since they will have carts in the hallways for regularly moving things in and out of the rooms.

They did attempt to start two-factor ID not long ago, but stopped it quickly because it was not working correctly (why I am not surprised that new website changes created by DVC go wrong). Also, the probable reason for creating two-factor reservation was to reduce the risk of member personal information being stolen by outsiders.

 

[Pooh12863]

...now the standard views have been taken out of service for January 1, 2024 and, so far, every date thereafter in 2024 that is 11 months out

I wish they would explain this to MS. The cast member was telling me the rooms were booked by other members when I tried adding Jan1-4 to my Dec reservation on the 30th. He didn't seem to understand when I told him that was an impossibility.

 

[drusba]

I wish they would explain this to MS. The cast member was telling me the rooms were booked by other members when I tried adding Jan1-4 to my Dec reservation on the 30th. He didn't seem to understand when I told him that was an impossibility.

I got the same response when I called about the lack of availability of the boardwalk view rooms that started Sep 9 (and continued through the first three weeks of Nov). I actually called twice, hoping at least one would be able to explain the issue without claiming it was for reservations made, but both did. I then sent an email asking MS to have the issue investigated, explaining why it was not possible for the rooms to all be full, e.g., the system was showing availability status as full for all 7 nights beginning 11-months out from any date well before 8 a.m. in the morning, a time when it would have been been impossible to reserve that 7th night. I then got an email from MS telling me the rooms were taken out-of-service for refurb, but the sender had not been given information for what kind of refurb that was for, inside or outside.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

They could define commercial use as any proceeds in excess of $500. My only point was they used wiggle words in the POS to control the product as they saw fit.

Net or gross proceeds

 

[Judique]

I got the same response when I called about the lack of availability of the boardwalk view rooms that started Sep 9 (and continued through the first three weeks of Nov). I actually called twice, hoping at least one would be able to explain the issue without claiming it was for reservations made, but both did. I then sent an email asking MS to have the issue investigated, explaining why it was not possible for the rooms to all be full, e.g., the system was showing availability status as full for all 7 nights beginning 11-months out from any date well before 8 a.m. in the morning, a time when it would have been been impossible to reserve that 7th night. I then got an email from MS telling me the rooms were taken out-of-service for refurb, but the sender had not been given information for what kind of refurb that was for, inside or outside.

Your replies actually make me feel a bit better about my daily quest. I understood refurb but not how the schedule would work. Thanks for taking the time to follow up on this and share. Soon it will be all done.

I prefer standard because I drive and I like my car as close as possible. After standard I've gone for BWV in the past, but now I'm fine with garden if they put me all the way in the back sections. It finally clicked that part of GV was actually across the hall in the back near the tennis courts where I prefer to be. In November I happily took a 1st floor room and in January I ended up on 3rd floor but facing the parking which I wanted. Gave my knees a little workout!

 

[Pooh12863]

Net or gross proceeds

I'm sure their lawyers would be able to figure it out.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

I'm sure their lawyers would be able to figure it out.

Well that s why I’m asking!
I would argue gross!
As net would violate the POS

 

[Chuck S]

So. for discussion sake, let us suppose there was a way to report people who booked holiday timeframes for spec.

What, specifically, do you think Disney/DVC should do about it? And what would those steps cost and how would it impact all other members?

For instance, you report that someone with a screen name of MickeyMouse101* is renting out a studio at BWV for Christmas Week at the 11 month mark. You don't know this member's real name, email address, phone number or other identifying info. How would Disney get that info, other than having someone manually check all Studio Reservations at that location for that timeframe to see iff the lead on the reserservation is the same as the name of the deeded DVC owner...which it WILL be until it is actually rented out. So DVC really couldnt do anything at that point. ANd the research would have cost us time/dues and probably taken a DVC Member Services CM away from the already busy phone lines. Adding hold times to other DVC Members trying to call.

*Totally made up name. apologies if somone here, or on another website has the screename of MickeyMouse101.

 

[drusba]

Note also, in relation to those proposing far more stringent "commercial purpose" rules than the 20-reservation rule that already exists, that the "commercial purpose" prohibition does not just say that it prohibits using the membership for a "commercial purpose." It explains that a commercial purpose would be shown by a member's engaging "in a pattern of rental activity" from which one can conclude the activity shows a "commercial enterprise or practice."

"Commercial enterprise" is actually a legal term that has long appeared in many statutes (and lawyers drafted the POS terms). Its generally accepted legal meaning is a person or entity that engages in for-profit activity as part of an ongoing business. Doing reservations to recover membership fees, to rent reservations the member made for family or relations but cannot now be used, to use up banked points accumulated during the pandemic, or even doing a few reservations just for profit while you are still continuing to use points for your own reservations, are not things that would fall with the concept of a commercial enterprise.

Moreover, trying to set some low monetary limit makes little sense. A member today could easily do completely innocent rentals in the year and make several thousand dollars, e.g., rent out one reservation the member has to give up because he cannot go using 250 points at $16 a point and the income would be $3,750, and that could not possibly show any pattern of reservations indicating a commercial enterprise or practice. Have someone with enough points to make a bungalow reservation for Christmas time for a week who had to give it up because they cannot go and succeeds in renting it, and the income could be $23,152 (1447 points at $16 a point), and that could not really establish any improper rentals.

Besides other limitations to a member's being able to rent, there is also the current limitation that no member can own more than 4,000 points at one resort and 8,000 total, and that is a "combined" limitation -- it is the maximum that can be owned by one or more members who could join together to make reservations, such as having separate memberships for husband and wife, a member's becoming an associate member on another member's account, or members forming agreements, corporations, partnerships, or other entities to engage in making reservations.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

So. for discussion sake, let us suppose there was a way to report people who booked holiday timeframes for spec.

What, specifically, do you think Disney/DVC should do about it? And what would those steps cost and how would it impact all other members?

For instance, you report that someone with a screen name of MickeyMouse101* is renting out a studio at BWV for Christmas Week at the 11 month mark. You don't know this member's real name, email address, phone number or other identifying info. How would Disney get that info, other than having someone manually check all Studio Reservations at that location for that timeframe to see iff the lead on the reserservation is the same as the name of the deeded DVC owner...which it WILL be until it is actually rented out. So DVC really couldnt do anything at that point. ANd the research would have cost us time/dues and probably taken a DVC Member Services CM away from the already busy phone lines. Adding hold times to other DVC Members trying to call.

*Totally made up name. apologies if somone here, or on another website has the screename of MickeyMouse101.

As a continuation of the previous post and Since I love hypotheticals, and debates….
For the sake playing devils advocate…..

I book at BLT on Jan 22 from the 22 of dec until the 3 of Jan. I tell my wife I’m going to put the confirmed reservation on FB and Disboards at 40/ points if I get it great, if not we are going…..

No one ever offers me anything close to 40 a point so we go on vacation…..

Was that a commercial rental or personal use?

What if my brother used the reservation with his family, he has a different last name….

How would Disney know if it was a commercial rental, my brother using the reservation, or me letting a friend use the points?

We are creating a problem here. The cure is worst than than the diseases here.

 

[Chuck S]

We are creating a problem here. The cure is worst than than the diseases here.

Exactly, I am the only person in my family with my last name, everyone else with this last name has passed away. So how would DVC even know if a reservation is for family members?

 

[thanxfornoticin]

Exactly, I am the only person in my family with my last name, everyone else with this last name has passed away. So how would DVC even know if a reservation is for family members?

They wouldn't.

Sounds like so much administrative overhead here, that my dues are going to go up 25 cents a point just to police it!

 

[Sandisw]

As a continuation of the previous post and Since I love hypotheticals, and debates….
For the sake playing devils advocate…..

I book at BLT on Jan 22 from the 22 of dec until the 3 of Jan. I tell my wife I’m going to put the confirmed reservation on FB and Disboards at 40/ points if I get it great, if not we are going…..

No one ever offers me anything close to 40 a point so we go on vacation…..

Was that a commercial rental or personal use?

What if my brother used the reservation with his family, he has a different last name….

How would Disney know if it was a commercial rental, my brother using the reservation, or me letting a friend use the points?

We are creating a problem here. The cure is worst than than the diseases here.

And this is another example how they could never put a limit in terms of price because one rental a year….which we are expressly allowed to do could never be considered a commercial business, no matter how much one makes off that one rental.

I agree it’s creating a problem that doesn’t really exist..the piece is that there a lot of sites where people can list. And just because one person lists a lot, it doesn’t mean they were all made under the same owner. That person could simply be part of a larger family who does it for everyone.

 

[ehh]

I'm sure enthusiast forum members with no real data, some of whom might even be protecting their own at-risk behavior, will come up with a meaningful commercial use mitigation plan with viability analysis.

 

[Robbie Cottam]

I'm sure enthusiast forum members with no real data, some of whom might even be protecting their own at-risk behavior, will come up with a meaningful commercial use mitigation plan with viability analysis.

Or we could just let this go?

 

[RoseGold]

I'm sure enthusiast forum members with no real data, some of whom might even be protecting their own at-risk behavior, will come up with a meaningful commercial use mitigation plan with viability analysis.

I don't really rent out points, just because I don't think it's good mathematically for me, but it's explicitly allowed in all the documents. I don't even see what's "at-risk." DVC can't get rid of it. They could put in some hoops and make it hard, but they haven't done much of that.

Point rental is part of what keeps the value of your contract high. There is a whole professional class of people who buy these and rent it out. They don't really care what nonsense we are talking.