Will you fly on a Boeing 737 Max 8?

[DopeyDame]

There are many boneyards.

https://www.airplaneboneyards.com/airplane-boneyards-list-and-map.htm

Planes get sent there for various reasons, short term storage, long term storage, eventual destruction, etc.

Depending on how long they have been there and why they were sent there it can take quite awhile to bring them back into service. It is relatively common for airlines to store planes not needed until the next busy travel season. Those planes are stored ready to be brought back into service.

Many are claiming that Southwest will bring back their 737-300 that were retired as the 737 MAX 8 were delivered. It is not as simple as sending someone to the desert to fly them back home. None of their pilots would be current on that type aircraft. They would have to retrain/re-certify a number of pilots. That is expensive and time consuming. The planes have been there for two years. They may have been retired just prior to a D maintenance check coming due that will now have to be done. Expensive and very time consuming.

If the anticipated grounding is just weeks, nothing will be done except to cancel a lot of flights.

I'm interested in the training part. I heard something on the radio this morning talking about how Boeing had really pushed to make the 737 MAX certification be interchangable with the previous 737 versions, so that there was no required recertification for an existing 737 pilot to start flying the MAX. They also were able to "count" the safety record of the previous 737 versions when certifying the MAX for sale.

I have no idea how common that is for certifications, of both planes and pilots, to carry-over across versions of airplanes. Any idea? It certainly seems that if training is a contributing factor in the crashes, that the lack of recertification for this specific model is a contributing factor as well.

 

[kdonnel]

I'm interested in the training part. I heard something on the radio this morning talking about how Boeing had really pushed to make the 737 MAX certification be interchangable with the previous 737 versions, so that there was no required recertification for an existing 737 pilot to start flying the MAX. They also were able to "count" the safety record of the previous 737 versions when certifying the MAX for sale.

I have no idea how common that is for certifications, of both planes and pilots, to carry-over across versions of airplanes. Any idea? It certainly seems that if training is a contributing factor in the crashes, that the lack of recertification for this specific model is a contributing factor as well.

I am not an expert.

This site lists the differences between the 737 NG series and the 737 MAX series.

There are many 737 dating back to 1965. While there is some commonality, a type rating is generally required for each of the series you intend to pilot.

The 737-300 retired by Southwest as the 737 MAX 8 were delivered are part of the 737 Classic series, which was updated with the 737 Next Generation series, which has been updated to create the 737 MAX series.

There are a lot of differences between a 737-300 and a 737 MAX 8, not as many differences between the 737 NG and 737 MAX which is the type certificate Boeing used to get the 737 MAX approved by the FAA, CAA, EASA, etc.

http://www.b737.org.uk/737maxdiffs.htm

Many times pilots have to pay for their own training to get a job with certain airlines. Here is one school that offers type ratings.

https://www.panamacademy.com/boeing-737-classic-type-rating-and-training-courses

For my sons birthday a few years ago we bought him an hour in the 737-200 flight simulator located at the Delta Museum.
https://tickets.deltamuseum.org/products/flight-simulator
Well worth the cost for the experience.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I doubt there are aircraft available to "swap out." It's just not cost-effective to keep spares. They will probably do their best to manage the capacity of the available aircraft in service.

It is both good and bad that Southwest only flies 737s. The good news is they can easily swap aircraft without as much concern for qualified pilots and crew, gates, etc. The bad news is they don't have the flexibility to change overall capacity very easily, as can other airlines with a variety of different sized aircraft. Airline scheduling can get very complex, very fast. I did a grad school project on optimizing airline schedules, based on real-world Eastern buying Braniff's South American routes. I still remember how difficult--and interesting--that project was.

For SWA they fly 34 Max 8 planes which represents 5% of their fleet. I don't know if those people whose flights presently show SOLD OUT will be reaccommodated right around the time they are supposed to fly (as opposed to those people shifting their flights entirely) but I think it's possible to shift people here and there to other flights that aren't full if they had to fly at that time. Many flights tend to be full but not all. Timing of your flight can have a big impact though.

I don't know if they would actually shift those passengers to other flights or not though. I think a big problem now is spring break travel.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

I'm interested in the training part. I heard something on the radio this morning talking about how Boeing had really pushed to make the 737 MAX certification be interchangable with the previous 737 versions, so that there was no required recertification for an existing 737 pilot to start flying the MAX. They also were able to "count" the safety record of the previous 737 versions when certifying the MAX for sale.

I have no idea how common that is for certifications, of both planes and pilots, to carry-over across versions of airplanes. Any idea? It certainly seems that if training is a contributing factor in the crashes, that the lack of recertification for this specific model is a contributing factor as well.

I am not an expert.

This site lists the differences between the 737 NG series and the 737 MAX series.

There are many 737 dating back to 1965. While there is some commonality, a type rating is generally required for each of the series you intend to pilot.

The 737-300 retired by Southwest as the 737 MAX 8 were delivered are part of the 737 Classic series, which was updated with the 737 Next Generation series, which has been updated to create the 737 MAX series.

There are a lot of differences between a 737-300 and a 737 MAX 8, not as many differences between the 737 NG and 737 MAX which is the type certificate Boeing used to get the 737 MAX approved by the FAA, CAA, EASA, etc.

http://www.b737.org.uk/737maxdiffs.htm

Many times pilots have to pay for their own training to get a job with certain airlines. Here is one school that offers type ratings.

https://www.panamacademy.com/boeing-737-classic-type-rating-and-training-courses

For my sons birthday a few years ago we bought him an hour in the 737-200 flight simulator located at the Delta Museum.
https://tickets.deltamuseum.org/products/flight-simulator
Well worth the cost for the experience.

I cannot say for certain the way SW handles their training, but often the differences training, between different models but same type, consists of an hour of reading on your iPad.

 

[ronandannette]

How has Southwest had ~31,000 successful flights on this aircraft (according to themselves)? Was it just going to be a matter of time for them?

I don't think it's at all reasonable to conclude that all the Max 8s will inevitably crash. With 350 of these aircraft in use flying thousands-upon-thousands of flights worldwide, only two have ever crashed.

Just my luck... I am scheduled to fly from Toronto to Edmonton, Canada in a few weeks on a 737 Max 8 via Air Canada. I called today to cancel my flight due to safety concerns and they wouldn’t offer a refund.

So no, until we figure out why two of these crashed in very similar circumstances so close together I will not be flying on one

Just curious - did you actually cancel your flight the other day? Now that the aircraft has been grounded the airlines are making other arrangements for passengers, albeit some of the flight times and connections I've heard of are pretty crazy.

 

[Maistre Gracey]

You must LOVE these kind of threads then! Also the ones about which airlines are "best" to fly.

I'm curious what your feelings are regarding the 3 top FAA positions being filled by "acting" individuals, and the top position being a former American Airlines executive and airline industry lobbyist? Is this standard operation, or something a little unusual? Does it give you any concern?

I really don’t notice a difference. FAA regulations, and part 121 airlines (most major airlines), the rules are so defined at this point that we may never know who the administrator actually is.
Procedures are written and approved. I do my best to adhere to all company policies, which by default adhere to the FAA regulations.
It’s sooooo ingrained that a new administrator makes no difference.

 

[Hrhpd]

For SWA they fly 34 Max 8 planes which represents 5% of their fleet. I don't know if those people whose flights presently show SOLD OUT will be reaccommodated right around the time they are supposed to fly (as opposed to those people shifting their flights entirely) but I think it's possible to shift people here and there to other flights that aren't full if they had to fly at that time. Many flights tend to be full but not all. Timing of your flight can have a big impact though.

I don't know if they would actually shift those passengers to other flights or not though. I think a big problem now is spring break travel.

I am part of a group (about 40+) that was booked on a Max 8 flying into Orlando at the end of next month. Our flight, and several other daily routes say "sold out" though not yet "cancelled." Although SWA said they were trying to find another aircraft for those routes, they still recommended we rebook. Since we all have a deadline of when we have to be in Orlando (not a vacation) we didn't want to wait around to see what seats would be available. SWA recommended we rebook earlier rather than later in order to make sure we had seats. And even though they are saying that they are not rebooking any flights after 3/31 yet, SWA happily rebooked the whole group of us on 2 different nonstop flights a day earlier than the original flight at no difference in cost. Bonus, we originally wanted those Monday flights, but they were almost 2x the cost of the Tuesday flights.

All in all, SWA bent over backwards to make sure our very large group had seats on flights that were convenient to us, not to them. Extremely pleased with their customer service and their willingness to work with our group.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I am part of a group (about 40+) that was booked on a Max 8 flying into Orlando at the end of next month. Our flight, and several other daily routes say "sold out" though not yet "cancelled." Although SWA said they were trying to find another aircraft for those routes, they still recommended we rebook. Since we all have a deadline of when we have to be in Orlando (not a vacation) we didn't want to wait around to see what seats would be available. SWA recommended we rebook earlier rather than later in order to make sure we had seats. And even though they are saying that they are not rebooking any flights after 3/31 yet, SWA happily rebooked the whole group of us on 2 different nonstop flights a day earlier than the original flight at no difference in cost. Bonus, we originally wanted those Monday flights, but they were almost 2x the cost of the Tuesday flights.

All in all, SWA bent over backwards to make sure our very large group had seats on flights that were convenient to us, not to them. Extremely pleased with their customer service and their willingness to work with our group.

That's good to hear

 

[BlueStarryHat]

I voted no. I have a fear of flying, and a larger fear of flying on a big airplane. I like the Airbus A320. Sure, it's a bit cramped, but I put up with it because-although It may not be the case-I feel safer.

 

[bapcap]

I’m seeing conflicting reports as to if the 737-800 is the same as the 737Max 8, does anyone know for certain?
American Airlines told me they are different models...not the same

 

[jec6613]

The 737 MAX 8 and 737-800 are different aircraft - Boeing's website (Sales brochures of course) outlines the differences, but the -800 has been in service for a long time. And at least 5 of the WN MAX 8's were landing at LAX yesterday, as well as several P5 and 5D, and at least a few UA birds, I counted about a dozen 737 MAX 8 and 737 MAX 9 aircraft landing.

 

[jec6613]

There are many boneyards.

https://www.airplaneboneyards.com/airplane-boneyards-list-and-map.htm

Planes get sent there for various reasons, short term storage, long term storage, eventual destruction, etc.

Depending on how long they have been there and why they were sent there it can take quite awhile to bring them back into service. It is relatively common for airlines to store planes not needed until the next busy travel season. Those planes are stored ready to be brought back into service.

Many are claiming that Southwest will bring back their 737-300 that were retired as the 737 MAX 8 were delivered. It is not as simple as sending someone to the desert to fly them back home. None of their pilots would be current on that type aircraft. They would have to retrain/re-certify a number of pilots. That is expensive and time consuming. The planes have been there for two years. They may have been retired just prior to a D maintenance check coming due that will now have to be done. Expensive and very time consuming.

If the anticipated grounding is just weeks, nothing will be done except to cancel a lot of flights.

Besides the boneyards, AA at least has a small fleet of spares hanging around of the MD-83's at a few airports, and some 737-800's that were being pulled out to have their interiors refurbished not at a C or D check. Most of what's going to happen though is that the C and D maintenance checks will get postponed on aircraft having it a bit early due to scheduling/operational reasons, so even after return to flight there are going to be delays and cancellations as they now have to take those aircraft down at inconvenient times.

 

[Fldisneyfamily4321]

Of course! Especially domestically.

Not sure domestic flights matter given they both crashed within minutes of take off . I personally would absolutely not fly on one .. nope . The fact that two within 5 months crashed there is no way . I have a flight booked with Virgin Atlantic in November and they use 747-400 ( love those models ) but if they were using the max I would cancel even if I lost money !

 

[kdonnel]

Not sure domestic flights matter given they both crashed within minutes of take off . I personally would absolutely not fly on one .. nope . The fact that two within 5 months crashed there is no way . I have a flight booked with Virgin Atlantic in November and they use 747-400 ( love those models ) but if they were using the max I would cancel even if I lost money !

4% of all 747 produced have crashed or been damaged to the point that the plane was a complete loss.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747_hull_losses

747s have been involved in accidents resulting in the highest death toll of any aviation accident, the highest death toll of any single airplane accident and the highest death toll of a mid-air collision, although, as with most airliner accidents, the roots of causation in these incidents involved a confluence of multiple factors which rarely could be ascribed to flaws with the 747's design or its flying characteristics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_747_hull_losses

At this point in the 737 MAXs lifespan, 1/2 of 1 percent of them have crashed or resulted in a hull loss. And as stated in the the quote above, when the report comes out there will be multiple factors that caused the two 737 MAX crashes and will probably not be traced back to a design flaw.

Given properly trained pilots, I would not hesitate to get on any plane an airline was using. The airlines really don't enjoy killing their customers, they really do want us to fly them again and again.

 

[mnrose]

See the comforting factor, if you will, about the 747 accidents is that more than half of the "hull loss" things resulted in no loss of life. And, in a few others, the loss of life was due to hostages being killed in hijackings (clearly not the fault of the aircraft). As the quote above says "rarely" could the loss of life be ascribed to design flaws or flying characteristics. Not all air accidents are created equal. The 747 was especially prone to hijackings and terrorist downings (Lockerbie for example). I feel VERY safe on a 747 because I truly believe the pilots want to live as much as I do, and the aircraft has proven itself to be very reliable and well designed over DECADES of use. The 737 Max 8 has not been so proven. Indeed, 2 significant crashes in 5 months (both VERY similar) seems a bad record. I'd avoid it like the plague until they figure it out.

 

[nd5056]

There's increased speculation about the pilots not knowing how to disable the flight control system with the sensor malfunctioning.

Also, the training the pilots received for the 737 MAX was a 2 hours long training on iPad(!), since the design was considered an upgrade, not redesign.

An off-duty pilot saved 737 MAX 8

 

[nd5056]

Exclusive: Cockpit voice recorder of doomed Lion Air jet

The pilots of a doomed Lion Air Boeing 737 MAX scoured a handbook as they struggled to understand why the jet was lurching downwards, but ran out of time before it hit the water, three people with knowledge of the cockpit voice recorder contents said.

 

[kdonnel]

There's increased speculation about the pilots not knowing how to disable the flight control system with the sensor malfunctioning.

Also, the training the pilots received for the 737 MAX was a 2 hours long training on iPad(!), since the design was considered an upgrade, not redesign.

An off-duty pilot saved 737 MAX 8

The switch the off duty pilot told them to use on the earlier flight has been part of the 737 design since 1965.

I believe both crashes will be pilot error as the primary cause.

 

[nd5056]

The switch the off duty pilot told them to use on the earlier flight has been part of the 737 design since 1965.

I believe both crashes will be pilot error as the primary cause.

Looks like it. Malfunctioning sensors combined with low flight experience and lock of proper training...

 

[aripantaloon]

No. The similar crashes are just too coincidental for my taste.

We are flying to Paris on Norwegian in the summer. Before the airline announced they were pulling the planes from service, I checked to see if we were on one (we weren’t). I’m not sure what I would have initially done if we were.