Will you fly on a Boeing 737 Max 8?

Will you fly on a Boeing 737 Max 8?

  • Yes

    Votes: 51 32.5%
  • No

    Votes: 79 50.3%
  • Not Sure

    Votes: 27 17.2%

  • Total voters
    157
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There will be contributing factors listed, but the main factor will be pilot error. No one had to die, if the pilots had just followed a 54 year old procedure for how to handle a 737 behaving in that manner, as evidenced by the Lion Air flight that did not crash when the jump seat pilot saved the day.

Likewise, no one had to die if the sensor hadn't malfunctioned.
Almost all catastrophic failures are caused by a combination of errors. Designers go to GREAT lengths to make sure that one single failure (be that mechanical, procedural, or human) can cause a catastrophic failure. So the fact that human error could have prevented the failure isn't unusual.
So while I don't disagree with you that it sounds like the pilots could have saved the day, that doesn't lead to the conclusion that pilot error is the root cause of the failure. In fact, the root cause will almost certainly be the malfunctioning sensor at least based on what I've read so far.
An easy over-simplification of root cause analysis is the "why" chain. Keep asking why until you can't go any further.
Why did the people die?
Because the plane hit the ground in an uncontrolled manner
Why?
Because the pilots were unable to keep the nose pointing up during takeoff
Why?
Because the automatic pilot system took over
Why?
Because it sensed a stall condition
Why?
Because an individual sensor malfunctioned
Why?
<This is where you get the electrical engineers to figure out the root cause>
 
Likewise, no one had to die if the sensor hadn't malfunctioned.
Sensors will always fail. Pilots should know how to fly the plane without automation. Asian airlines in particular are heavily reliant on automation and do not teach the skills on how to fly without it on a regular basis.
 
Not sure who messed up here. The pilots were told and forgot? The info never got to them? They didn't understand what was happening?

https://www.seattletimes.com/nation...med-lion-air-jetliner-on-next-to-last-flight/

After the Lion Air crash, two U.S. pilots unions said the potential risks of the system, known as the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS, hadn’t been sufficiently spelled out in their manuals or training. None of the documentation for the Max aircraft included an explanation, the union leaders said.

The Allied Pilots Association union at American Airlines Group also said details about the system weren’t included in the documentation about the plane.

After the Lion Air crash, the FAA required Boeing to notify airlines about the system and Boeing sent a bulletin to all customers flying the Max reminding them how to disable it in an emergency.

Authorities have released few details about Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 other than it flew a “very similar” track as the Lion Air planes and then dived sharply into the ground.

If the same issue is also found to have helped bring down Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302, one of the most vexing questions crash investigators and aviation safety consultants are asking is why the pilots on that flight didn’t perform the checklist that disables the system.

“After this horrific Lion Air accident, you’d think that everyone flying this airplane would know that’s how you turn this off,” said Steve Wallace, the former director of the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration’s accident-investigation branch.

The combination of factors required to bring down a plane in these circumstances suggests other issues may also have occurred in the Ethiopia crash, said Jeffrey Guzzetti, who also directed accident investigations at FAA and is now a consultant.

“It’s simply implausible that this MCAS deficiency by itself can down a modern jetliner with a trained crew,” Guzzetti said.
 
Not sure who messed up here. The pilots were told and forgot? The info never got to them? They didn't understand what was happening?

“It’s simply implausible that this MCAS deficiency by itself can down a modern jetliner with a trained crew,” Guzzetti said.

Training is done very differently outside the US.

In the US, airline pilots have to have 1500-2000 hours to get the license necessary to work for an airline. Outside the US, 200 hours. It is rare for even a first officer of a 737 in the US to have less then 10,000 hours because they would have worked their way up on a regional carrier and gained thousands of hours as a Captain there or had thousands of hours from their military career.
 


I ran into a friend, a Southwest Captain, yesterday at our kids' school and talked with him very briefly about these accidents and the aircraft. He had actually flown a Max 8 just two days before they were grounded.

First off, he was very sympathetic for the terrible losses in the accidents, and eager to hear more about the findings for the Ethiopian Airlines crash. As far as the aircraft, he said there is obviously some kind of problem with the system in question, which he thought would likely be fixed quickly and easily with software and/or training/procedure updates. Again, it was a brief discussion, and he did not go into details. He wasn't downplaying the issue, but seemed to think of it as something manageable. He also indicated that the problem, as he understands it from information he has heard for the Lion Air crash, should have been readily recognized and handled by a competent pilot, like it was by the jump seat pilot in the same aircraft on the flight before the crash. He was saddened but not shocked to hear how inexperienced some of the pilots in the crashes were. The bottom-line I took from our talk was that he personally would have no problem flying a Max 8 again tomorrow if scheduled to do so.

With all that being said, I will add that my friend was previously a military pilot. Pilots in general are very confident in their skills, and those with military backgrounds are even more so. Even though he said he would feel safe flying it again, the aircraft is grounded for a reason, and he did not question that decision.
 
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I ran into a friend, a Southwest Captain, yesterday at our kids' school and talked with him very briefly about these accidents and the aircraft. He had actually flown a Max 8 just two days before they were grounded.

First off, he was very sympathetic for the terrible losses in the accidents, and eager to hear more about the findings for the Ethiopian Airlines crash. As far as the aircraft, he said there is obviously some kind of problem with the system in question, which he thought would likely be fixed quickly and easily with software and/or training/procedure updates. Again, it was a brief discussion, and he did not go into details. He wasn't downplaying the issue, but seemed to think of it as something manageable. He also indicated that the problem, as he understands it from information he has heard for the Lion Air crash, should have been readily recognized and handled by a competent pilot, like it was by the jump seat pilot in the same aircraft on the flight before the crash. He was saddened but not shocked to hear how inexperienced some of the pilots in the crashes were. The bottom-line I took from our talk was that he personally would have no problem flying a Max 8 again tomorrow if scheduled to do so.

With all that being said, I will add that my friend was previously a military pilot. Pilots in general are very confident in their skills, and those with military backgrounds are even more so. Even though he said he would feel safe flying it again, the aircraft is grounded for a reason, and he did not question that decision.

I'm not sure the 737 Max 8 survives this. Despite what your friend says about possible fixes, there is a loss of consumer confidence in this product. People may go out of their way not to fly on these planes.
 
I'm not sure the 737 Max 8 survives this. Despite what your friend says about possible fixes, there is a loss of consumer confidence in this product. People may go out of their way not to fly on these planes.


This. And, Garuda (Indonesian airline) is seeking to cancel it's orders for this plane for precisely that reason. They are afraid that no one will fly it, or that people will actively avoid it....so what's the point of having it in their system....regardless of how safe.
 


This. And, Garuda (Indonesian airline) is seeking to cancel it's orders for this plane for precisely that reason. They are afraid that no one will fly it, or that people will actively avoid it....so what's the point of having it in their system....regardless of how safe.
The flying public has very short memories.
 
No we don't. And no offense, but your posts seem a bit biased in defense of the U.S. airline industry.
No offense taken.

You can have your opinion, I can have mine.

Time and time again people have gotten back on planes that have had multiple crashes.

The 737 had rudder issues in the 90's, two crashes killing all on board, granted further apart then these two, but the plane survived and thousands more were made.

The MD-80 series had high profile rudder issues. People still get on those planes every day.

An A320 flew into the trees at an air show as Airbus tried to showoff the plane in a low altitude fly by. It went on to sell thousands of planes.

If you asked each person as they were getting on a plane if they knew what kind of plane it was, I bet fewer then half could even tell you the manufacturer let alone the model.

I stand by my statement that the flying public has short memories.
 
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LOL. This airplane isn't being scrapped. It will be flying in a month or less.

Don't forget, it's time to start worrying about sharks in the ocean. Who has time to worry about airplanes, with summer fast approaching?
 
LOL. This airplane isn't being scrapped. It will be flying in a month or less.

Don't forget, it's time to start worrying about sharks in the ocean. Who has time to worry about airplanes, with summer fast approaching?

Especially if your plane crashes into the ocean.
 
Can you imagine going down over the middle of the ocean at, let's say, 2am? I'd actually pray for death on impact.

If you fly an airline based out of Ethiopia or Indonesia, you should pray pretty much constantly.
 
https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/04/03/af...res-intl/index.html?r=https://www.google.com/

Time to quote the posts of shame in this thread!

I disagree that the union's stance is irrelevant. They are working with the FAA and others to review the actual data.
https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago...e-crashes-boeing-737max-8-is-safe-to-fly.html
I'm sure they would not hesitate to instruct their members not to fly an aircraft they deemed unsafe.

They reached the right conclusion but they were late to the party.

The countries and organizations that have grounded the plane have done it for purely political and public relation gains.

If the grounding was based in fact, all variants of the 737 MAX would be grounded since they have the same flight systems that the arm chair aeronautical engineers have decided is the cause. Instead they only grounded the MAX 8 and not the MAX 9.

Lol yeah political pressure

Nope. I would still get on a 737 MAX 8 without hesitation.

Good luck

And if the FAA/NTSB gather data that shows the airplane should be grounded, I’m sure they will do so. In the meantime I don’t see the need to panic.

How about now? You panicking?

That’s fine. I’m not sure what the political pressure is in Canada.

There have been two Max crashes that I’m aware of, and quite possibly due to two different causes. I’ll leave it to the experts, but I don’t see any pattern yet that warrants grounding.

How about now?

Right, we don’t know that. ThTs why I said “quite possibly”.
I don’t think there’s been an airplane made that hasn’t crashed twice.
I also am not sure I would accept Ethiopian training of a 200 hour first officer as adequate.

Ethiopian pilots followed Boeing's procedures.

Well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I’m happy the airplane is still flying, as I see the evidence, SO FAR, as flimsy.

Is the evidence still flimsy?

Never said the grounding was to hurt Boeing. I said it was to curry political and public relation gains.

And yes, these days, everything is political.

Political huh?

I don’t see that as realistic. If both crashes prove to be from the same cause, yes, I’m all for grounding.
I think it’s a panicked gesture to ground the fleet because of two accidents which are possibly unrelated.
Aircraft designs undergo more testing than most realize, and in order for the aircraft to get certified in the first place is quite a process.
If you feel like a guinea pig by all means do not fly on one. I just don’t want to see the strong arm of the government over react.

Panicked decision huh?

https://www.aviationpros.com/home/news/10393714/northwest-flies-the-dc10-on-its-last-flight


This is why emotion should not play into the decision to ground any plane.

If it turns out that a design flaw is not the cause of the latest crash, the governments that jumped to a conclusion should have to reimburse not only the airlines affected but the passengers as well.

Awful post. Boeing should be the ones paying out huge money and they will.

I’m well aware. No need to scold me that you have told me three times.
I’m sorry, but I’ll go with NTSB data over a Canadian satellite image.

NTSB was late to the party.

The switch the off duty pilot told them to use on the earlier flight has been part of the 737 design since 1965.

I believe both crashes will be pilot error as the primary cause.

Wrong. Ethiopian pilots followed Boeing's procedures. You can apologize now to them if you like.

The switch that needed to be flipped to save the plane has been part of the 737 since 1965. It has been part of the emergency checklist since 1965. This is not Boeings fault.

This is extreme negligence on the part of Lion Air and Ethiopian Air.

Wrong, wrong, and wrong. Ouch!

https://www.wsj.com/articles/inside-u-s-airlines-decisions-to-keep-flying-the-737-max-11553092416


The same steps pilots of the 737 have used since 1965 are used to recover from the MCAS misbehaving.

This is pilot error.


People are trying to blame the evil faceless corporation when they are not to blame.

Sensors fail, automation fails. Pilots should know how to handle failures. These four pilots failed.

Wrong, wrong and wrong. Ouch!

This is not the first crash of a plane due to pilots relying too much on automation.

Asiana Airlines 214 crashed in San Francisco because the pilots relied too much on the automation and were totally unaware of the situation.

Pilots need to be trained on what to do when the automation fails. That is NOT something Boeing or Airbus is responsible to make sure happens. That is the responsibility of the airlines. Lion Air and Ethiopian Air and Asiana Airlines are recent examples of airlines that seem to have forgotten that pilots need to know how to fly planes when the automation fails.

Ouch!!

There will be contributing factors listed, but the main factor will be pilot error. No one had to die, if the pilots had just followed a 54 year old procedure for how to handle a 737 behaving in that manner, as evidenced by the Lion Air flight that did not crash when the jump seat pilot saved the day.

Wrong.

Sensors will always fail. Pilots should know how to fly the plane without automation. Asian airlines in particular are heavily reliant on automation and do not teach the skills on how to fly without it on a regular basis.

Pilots followed procedures.

LOL. This airplane isn't being scrapped. It will be flying in a month or less.

No chance
 
Yeah, pretty terrible that it comes out now the pilots were in fact following procedures, after all the disdain about their experience and training. Total design flaw. Unfortunately this makes me even less trusting of Boeing. Also in the news is that some of the faa certifiers didn't even have appropriate credentials or background to be doing the certification.
 
Yeah, pretty terrible that it comes out now the pilots were in fact following procedures, after all the disdain about their experience and training. Total design flaw. Unfortunately this makes me even less trusting of Boeing. Also in the news is that some of the faa certifiers didn't even have appropriate credentials or background to be doing the certification.

This whole situation, from the beginning, gave me a really bad gut feeling that something shady was going on. I don't feel that way about plane crashes, usually. I have lost a lot of faith in the FAA and NTSB (not really shocking, as I have lost faith in a lot of our government over the past couple years, but that's another issue). I will not ever fly this plane again. I don't trust the "fix" Boeing has chosen, especially since the initial fix that THEY were satisfied with was heavily criticized during pilot testing and now they have admitted it still needs more work.

Nope. I'm done. I will go as far as not booking on any airlines that have them in their fleet. If Southwest continues to use them after this is all "resolved," I think I'm done with them. I hate American and United already, so no loss there. I guess I'll turn to Delta and Jet Blue. I have upcoming SW flights but they are at the beginning of May and I'm relieved to know these planes won't be in the air by then.
 
I agree that this new information is upsetting. I had a hard time believing that the other two crashing were solely related to pilots being trained differently.

It is very unsettling to think the pilots in fact did turn off the system and the plane still was not responding as it should have. They tried other procedures recommended by Boeing, also to no avail. I can almost feel their desperation in those final moments.

This is the thing with technology. All of these developments and the fact the plane can almost fly itself is wonderful to a certain extent, I get that. Until it is not.

The fact that trained pilots basically lost all control of an aircraft to computer software is something that leaves me feeling a bit uncomfortable.

For the record, everyone who knows me will tell you I am a measured and pragmatic person. I do not stress about things I cannot control and I have never been a fearful flier, traveler, etc. This has me worried. I live in ATL and fly Delta exclusively at this point. Hopefully I will not run into ever having to get on a MAX8.
 
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