Why does VDH have resale restrictions & VGF doesn't? What is the future for Poly2 & FWC in regard to restrictions?

[thelionqueen]

I know the reasoning has likely been discussed, but I still am trying to figure out the rationale here. Do you think Disney is still experimenting with restrictions? In my personal opinion, it is the worst tactic in the history of ever. Not only does it not contribute to pushing folks to buy direct, but it alienates a savvy buyer altogether. Now, I realize the average guest isn't as aware as many folks on the Dis, but more and more are getting wise.

My own example is that I had my heart set on VDH.. like no matter what the cost, I was buying it, period. But, (and this is the biggest but) I absolutely hate the decor and theming. It's like BLT at DLR which isn't my cup of tea. Secondly, the tax and parking, huge hurdles for my love of DLH to overcome, but still not a deal breaker. The deal breaker? Resale restrictions. I simply cannot buy a product that immediately loses value, even though I planned on keeping the points.

Now I am turning into a DVC buyer I recommend against.. in that I am buying a resort I do not like and never plan on staying at, VGF. Basically buying SAP at VGF. I simply cannot pass up on the incredible incentives to buy direct. Thoughts on future resorts and having restrictions or not?

 

[tjkraz]

Other timeshare systems have implemented similar restrictions successfully. Some allow resale buyers to pay a fee and buy-up to "direct" status. That's something DVC may consider down the road.

People like you who downgrade the purchase based upon restrictions are the exception. To Average Joe sitting thru a sales presentation, hearing "buying points from us is the only way to stay at every resort and access these great member perks" is an incredibly valuable tool. DVC wouldn't have stuck with the restrictions for 4 years if they didn't believe it was working.

VGF2 was not restricted simply because the new rooms were an addition to the older condo association which lacked the restrictions. The same may be the case for Poly, but DVC hasn't committed either way. I would absolutely bet on the Wilderness cabins and other future resorts being restricted.

The restrictions are only an issue if one needs to sell. And even then, it's not like the points will be worthless. One has to weigh a willingness to potentially lose 11 month booking rights by purchasing elsewhere. There are people who absolutely adore Riviera and Disneyland Hotel. The ability to book things like cheaper standard view rooms and 2-person Tower Studios / Duo Studios--which will consistently be harder to get at 7 months--trumps any fear over what they may "lose" if selling the points 2-3 decades down the road.

 

[Sandisw]

My guess to what happened with converting BPK was driven by the ability to shift cash inventory that wasn’t renting well to DVC as a way of filling the void left when Reflections was csnceled.

By doing this quick flip, it allowed them to add something for sale with RIV and AUL…and I just have to wonder if it was easier to do it by adding it to VGF, especially being a studio only resort..which I personally don’t think would sell well, or fast…that way.

I expect restrictions to continue with all future resorts. Poly tower is unique so we shall see, but if they really wanted to move away from them, they could have left them off of VDH…and did not.

That to me is a the biggest move to support it’s still part of the plan.

 

[bitwhiskers]

VGF does not because the addition there was under the existing Association. I expect any resort built from the ground up will have the new designation and have the resale restrictions.

 

[bobbiwoz]

If DL is your primary destination, I think buying VGF is not what I would do, resale restrictions or not.

 

[tjkraz]

Now I am turning into a DVC buyer I recommend against.. in that I am buying a resort I do not like and never plan on staying at, VGF. Basically buying SAP at VGF. I simply cannot pass up on the incredible incentives to buy direct.

I'm curious how you moved from VDH being a must-buy to deciding that VGF is adequate despite no plans to stay there. Especially if you plan to use the points at Disneyland.

- You cannot bet on getting into Grand Californian
- If you decide to book Disneyland Hotel, you'll still be subject to the tax.
- More often you'll find limited availability at 7 months or be forced to book more expensive preferred view rooms
- The VGF contract expires 9 years earlier
- In my humble opinion, VDH resale will likely hold its value well simply because there isn't room to build a dozen DVC resorts. In a few years when VDH is sold out, those points will already command a premium regardless of tax, parking fees or restrictions.

 

[AstroBlasters]

I wouldn’t buy WDW points if the goal is to use them consistently at DL.

With that said, my wife and I ended up buying more VGC points because she is turned off by the theming. I think we were both hoping for more of a classic Disneyland hotel and Disneyland theme…. not Art of Animation Hotel… More Carthay Circle, less Disney JR….

 

[_auroraborealis_]

As it is, VGC resale is only purchased to use at VGC. Ain't nobody buying it for SAP. (Maybe the occasional east coast trip for AUL, but really you buy resale VGC to use at VGC because every other use is not a great idea.)

That VDH is going to force this issue makes it more severe than the existing reality, but not massively so.

 

[ehh]

Other timeshare systems have implemented similar restrictions successfully. Some allow resale buyers to pay a fee and buy-up to "direct" status. That's something DVC may consider down the road.

People like you who downgrade the purchase based upon restrictions are the exception. To Average Joe sitting thru a sales presentation, hearing "buying points from us is the only way to stay at every resort and access these great member perks" is an incredibly valuable tool. DVC wouldn't have stuck with the restrictions for 4 years if they didn't believe it was working.

VGF2 was not restricted simply because the new rooms were an addition to the older condo association which lacked the restrictions. The same may be the case for Poly, but DVC hasn't committed either way. I would absolutely bet on the Wilderness cabins and other future resorts being restricted.

The restrictions are only an issue if one needs to sell. And even then, it's not like the points will be worthless. One has to weigh a willingness to potentially lose 11 month booking rights by purchasing elsewhere. There are people who absolutely adore Riviera and Disneyland Hotel. The ability to book things like cheaper standard view rooms and 2-person Tower Studios / Duo Studios--which will consistently be harder to get at 7 months--trumps any fear over what they may "lose" if selling the points 2-3 decades down the road.

Agree with all of this, but would like to add there is a second issue with restrictions that we (as buyers) haven't hit yet: the resale vs. direct add-on dilemma could be magnified after the restricted resort has 'sold out'.

If I want to add on at VDH or RIV in 5-10 years because my current points are no longer sufficient for my needs, I have 3 choices:

1. Attempt to buy direct at (likely) very high 'sold out' prices, if they'll even sell it
2. Buy resale at (likely) much lower prices than the 'sold out' price, but end up with points that are functionally limited
3. Buy direct at a the latest resort (not VDH/RIV) with a middle ground price and hope I can make it work by either booking at RIV/VDH at 7m or offload some nights to the latest resort.

 

[Sandisw]

Agree with all of this, but would like to add there is a second issue with restrictions that we (as buyers) haven't hit yet: the resale vs. direct add-on dilemma could be magnified after the restricted resort has 'sold out'.

If I want to add on at VDH or RIV in 5-10 years because my current points are no longer sufficient for my needs, I have 3 choices:

1. Attempt to buy direct at (likely) very high 'sold out' prices, if they'll even sell it
2. Buy resale at (likely) much lower prices than the 'sold out' price, but end up with points that are functionally limited
3. Buy direct at a the latest resort (not VDH/RIV) with a middle ground price and hope I can make it work by either booking at RIV/VDH at 7m or offload some nights to the latest resort.

Which you have to wonder if this is what DVD wants. The reason sold out resorts have such a high price direct is because they don’t want people to buy them. They want them to buy the newest and brightest.

Of course, if someone wants to pay the high price for sold out and they have points, they sell them to them.

Maybe what they have seen with what VGC buyers have done..essentially use them as restricted…is what sparked the idea?

Even for BCV…people tend to buy there to use there…

 

[Brian Noble]

Do you think Disney is still experimenting with restrictions?

No.

VDH launched with resale restrictions, and RIV still has them. That tells me everything I need to know.

"But Brian," people ask, "what about VGF? Doesn't that show Disney is skittish?"

No, I don't think so. I've explained why elsewhere:

So, why did they fold GFV2 into the existing association? My best guess: Because doing so helped them sell points. As a separate association, what are you selling? Hotel rooms. I mean, you can call them resort studios if you like. But they are hotel rooms. They are very nice, heavily gilded hotel rooms. But they are hotel rooms.

The DVC marketing message is not "save money on your hotel rooms," though that is in fact what a lot of people do. Instead, the DVC marketing message is aspirational: "Beyond the Traditional Hotel Room." That's a lot harder to do if all you are selling is hotel rooms.

I simply cannot buy a product that immediately loses value, even though I planned on keeping the points.

I'm not sure why. The market seems to have settled into: there is a price penalty for RIV resales, all other things being equal but (a) they are not equal, and (b) the penalty is a lot smaller than I expected.

To me, the value in owning DVC is using it. If you keep it (and use it) over a long-enough time horizon, you will get fair value from owning it even if you have to give the points away. At that point, anything you sell for is a bonus. Yes, you might be forced to sell if something unforeseen happens, but the few dollars difference isn't going to matter that much.

Now, you might not want to buy VDH because you just don't like it that much, and that makes perfect sense. It's not everyone's cup of tea. Great! And the restrictions might matter enough to push you over the edge. But, the impact of those restrictions is a decade into your future, and to me the resale price penalty is probably not enough to push me one way or the other.

 

[AstroBlasters]

As it is, VGC resale is only purchased to use at VGC. Ain't nobody buying it for SAP. (Maybe the occasional east coast trip for AUL, but really you buy resale VGC to use at VGC because every other use is not a great idea.)

That VDH is going to force this issue makes it more severe than the existing reality, but not massively so.

The price I paid for VGC resale is close to the price that people are buying VDH for now…. So, with that logic one could say that no currently sold direct points are SAP points…

10 years from now, direct points for new resorts could be $300pp ore more with inflation… which will make my VGC points look like a bargain!

The upfront price is a “sunk cost”, after that I’m just going to do what makes me happy.

 

[dvc lover 1970]

I think DVC has shot themselves in the foot with restrictions as they have limited the buyer pool. I will not buy restricted resorts. At first I thought I would buy a restricted resort resale, but, even that has me cautious and it would have to be a substantial discount. Looking at resale market, I think long term, CCV will be the winner for a while with its tie to the legacy resorts and decent point chart. I did not buy RIV because of restrictions - and I do think the resort is beautiful, I just don’t like the restrictions, and I can’t buy resale because life happens and to be restricted to one resort stinks. We are interested in Poly tower, but if restricted we are out. If the future is restricted points we are done with our DVC - direct and resale purchases.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

The price I paid for VGC resale is close to the price that people are buying VDH for now…. So, with that logic one could say that no currently sold direct points are SAP points…

10 years from now, direct points for new resorts could be $300pp ore more with inflation… which will make my VGC points look like a bargain!

The upfront price is a “sunk cost”, after that I’m just going to do what makes me happy.

If one were after restricted SAP via resale, VGC would not be the choice. It is not so much a discussion of direct pricing as it is recognition that once one is buying resale, if they are after SAP, VGC is not a financially sane pick. You get Poly or Saratoga.

 

[thelionqueen]

I'm curious how you moved from VDH being a must-buy to deciding that VGF is adequate despite no plans to stay there. Especially if you plan to use the points at Disneyland.

- You cannot bet on getting into Grand Californian
- If you decide to book Disneyland Hotel, you'll still be subject to the tax.
- More often you'll find limited availability at 7 months or be forced to book more expensive preferred view rooms
- The VGF contract expires 9 years earlier
- In my humble opinion, VDH resale will likely hold its value well simply because there isn't room to build a dozen DVC resorts. In a few years when VDH is sold out, those points will already command a premium regardless of tax, parking fees or restrictions.

It’s against my normal thinking but here’s why…

- I’m not buying to get into GCV, but VDH occasionally.
- I won’t stay there as much as I thought because I detest the theming. Had it been different, this would be a moot point; I’d have bought therr
- I do not care at all about contract end (I’ve heard all sides of this debate, not an issue for me)
- I do not believe VDH will hold its value due to restrictions

For me, I’m buying to use at restricted resorts as I can, or SAP at WDW. The allure of VDH is non existent and the tax & restrictions make it even worse

 

[AstroBlasters]

It’s against my normal thinking but here’s why…

- I’m not buying to get into GCV, but VDH occasionally.
- I won’t stay there as much as I thought because I detest the theming. Had it been different, this would be a moot point; I’d have bought therr
- I do not care at all about contract end (I’ve heard all sides of this debate, not an issue for me)
- I do not believe VDH will hold its value due to restrictions

For me, I’m buying to use at restricted resorts as I can, or SAP at WDW. The allure of VDH is non existent and the tax & restrictions make it even worse

I don’t understand why anyone would ever even consider buying into VDH if they were mostly looking for WDW unrestricted SAPs….

 

[thelionqueen]

I don’t understand why anyone would ever even consider buying into VDH if they were mostly looking for WDW unrestricted SAPs….

I don’t understand that either..which is why I’m not doing that.

 

[AstroBlasters]

I don’t understand that either..which is why I’m not doing that.

I am so confused…

 

[dvc lover 1970]

It’s against my normal thinking but here’s why…

- I’m not buying to get into GCV, but VDH occasionally.
- I won’t stay there as much as I thought because I detest the theming. Had it been different, this would be a moot point; I’d have bought therr
- I do not care at all about contract end (I’ve heard all sides of this debate, not an issue for me)
- I do not believe VDH will hold its value due to restrictions

For me, I’m buying to use at restricted resorts as I can, or SAP at WDW. The allure of VDH is non existent and the tax & restrictions make it even worse

Agree VGF direct right now is the best purchase. We were on the fence of adding on, I regret not doing it.

 

[thelionqueen]

I am so confused…

I never suggested I considered buying VDH for SAP at WDW. I was going to buy VDH for VDH, but doesn’t appeal to me anymore. I switched to GFV for use at restricted resorts (which buying resale can’t book) and occasional stays at VDH or GCV..or just as SAPs at WDW