Westminster dog show 2020

piglet too

I will take a Mudslide please
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
I agree that the “show standard” of a lot of breeds has changed how they look. I like GSD, but not the ones that are for show.

I also agree with the thought of “I love this breed but I don’t want it to win”. My parents were breeders of Bernese Mountain Dogs, and the Berner groups they belong to hope one never wins BoS. They all saw how movies like Beethoven pretty much ruined St Bernards as well.
 
  • Pea-n-Me

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 18, 2004
    I heard that at least one of the dogs took two hours to groom. wonder how long the poodle took to get its "hair done." I don't suppose a show dog like that spends much time outside, roaming the 'hood. Can you tell I'm more of a "hound" person?
    This made me chuckle. My dog takes an hour and a half to groom at the groomer's! If I do it myself it takes a lot longer! We have a Cairn Terrier and we keep his coat in its natural state, we don't shave him. (He looks the way they look in the show.) It's beautiful when nicely done (and meant to protect their skin when they're doing what they were bred for, i.e. going under thick brush after vermin; shaving them changes their coat, and look, entirely). It's not fancy in any way, there's just a lot of hair! They traditionally are hand-stripped but we do a modified version of that. I stopped doing it myself for the most part because it took so long! It's been one of the hardest things for me to get used to owning this breed. (Previously have only had GSDs.) He is the most wonderful little guy, though, we love him to pieces! (Sorry @lovin'fl! :rotfl2: I know yours has issues!)

    FullSizeRender.jpg
     
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    lovin'fl

    DIS Veteran
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    Jun 7, 2011
    This made me chuckle. My dog takes an hour and a half to groom at the groomer's! If I do it myself it takes a lot longer! We have a Cairn Terrier and we keep his coat in its natural state, we don't shave him. (He looks the way they look in the show.) It's beautiful when nicely done (and meant to protect their skin when they're doing what they were bred for, i.e. going under thick brush after vermin; shaving them changes their coat, and look, entirely). It's not fancy in any way, there's just a lot of hair! They traditionally are hand-stripped but we do a modified version of that. I stopped doing it myself for the most part because it took so long! It's been one of the hardest things for me to get used to owning this breed. (Previously have only had GSDs.) He is the most wonderful little guy, though, we love him to pieces! (Sorry @lovin'fl! :rotfl2: I know yours has issues!)

    View attachment 473340
    I did shave mine and it did mess up his hair/look. He's more Yorkie like now. But he was so bad at the groomers with nipping and being black listed. I don't know how many times I picked him up with 1/2 a cut cause they refused to finish. So I started grooming him myself and he won't tolerate me messing with him for long. So scissor cutting would take me days to do a little each day. I just take the shaver to him. Once in a while. Most of the time he looks like a fat giant Yorkie. I shaved him a month ago and he's kind of fuzzy now. Just scissored his face hair so he can see, but couldn't do the best job as he was nipping. Uggghh. Your guy is adorable. They have such funny old man expressions.

    This is my guy right now (just took this):


    And a few months before I shaved him last:
     

    Pea-n-Me

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 18, 2004
    I did shave mine and it did mess up his hair/look. He's more Yorkie like now. But he was so bad at the groomers with nipping and being black listed. I don't know how many times I picked him up with 1/2 a cut cause they refused to finish. So I started grooming him myself and he won't tolerate me messing with him for long. So scissor cutting would take me days to do a little each day. I just take the shaver to him. Once in a while. Most of the time he looks like a fat giant Yorkie. I shaved him a month ago and he's kind of fuzzy now. Just scissored his face hair so he can see, but couldn't do the best job as he was nipping. Uggghh. Your guy is adorable. They have such funny old man expressions.

    This is my guy right now (just took this):


    And a few months before I shaved him last:
    Omg!! I know from this and other stories he’s been a handful! He’s lucky you are so patient with him, not everyone would be! He certainly looks like he’s got a lot of character. (And very cute!) He looks like he’s saying, “Just leave me alone, will ya?” :lmao:

    I think grooming can be really hard, especially if they have some bad experiences. It does hurt sometimes, and they have just one way to protect themselves. Ours went to one groomer that really did a number on him. His skin was red raw and he didn’t want to be touched after going to her. It took a while to get him back to being trustful again. The girl who grooms him now says he’s good for her. Sometimes I think the trade off can be a not so great cut for a gentle groomer. If you can find someone who’s both they’re a keeper.
     

    jsmith

    <font color=darkorchid>And now I am off to get my
    Joined
    Nov 21, 2000
    heard that at least one of the dogs took two hours to groom. wonder how long the poodle took to get its "hair done." I don't suppose a show dog like that spends much time outside, roaming the 'hood. Can you tell I'm more of a "hound" person?
    My handler started on my Bernese Mountain Dog at 6 am for a 10 am ring time. He carries a ton of coat and takes roughly two hours to blow dry. And when he is not playing show dog he loves rolling in the snow, and leaves and mud so he takes a minute to wash. He also competes in working events and I have posted photos here of him competing in draft competitions. He is very much just a dog except for the dozen or so weekends a year he spends playing show dog

    Because in the end, they don't truly care. And they'll always have an excuse on why they're doing it. Oh we have to have dog standards so people know what they get. Hogwash. And that's why I will never watch, nor participate in dog shows nor will I buy one of the many breeders cast offs that came out not good enough for show quality, nor will I breed for show quality. Several dog breeds have been ruined by "kennel club standards"
    If you are clues you should not comment-and you are clueless. Dedicated preservation breeders work to preserver the heritage traits and instincts that dogs were developed with for herding livestock guarding, hunting and guarding. They spend hours researching pedigrees and gene pools to prevent just the things you are talking about. Its the breeders who breed to meet demand for puppies without regard to standards and health testing that do damage. Just because you repeat stupid AR trivia does not make it the truth-it just means you have failed to do proper self education

    By the way why don't retrievers win? Because they're not nearly as inbred at this point in time and thus it's harder to judge them. I love retrievers. And while everyone else was angry the retriever got robbed I was celebrating. Not winning was the best thing that could ever happen to the breed.
    And given the pictures of these dogs, I hope for the retrievers' sakes, they never win.
    Actually golden retrievers have one of the highest rates of genetic cancers because of the prevelance of poorly bred dogs that are inbred by puppy mill breeders breeding dogs to meet the demand for pets who are not from " aweful" show breeders who do these horrible things. Again education is important!
    I also agree with the thought of “I love this breed but I don’t want it to win”. My parents were breeders of Bernese Mountain Dogs, and the Berner groups they belong to hope one never wins BoS. They all saw how movies like Beethoven pretty much ruined St Bernards as well
    I have Berners-I am not a breeder but many of my friends are. Berners in print and TV adds, on television and in movies make us all cringe. The more those things happen the more the breed is damaged by crap breeders who want to make a fast buck of the demand for puppies. I would have been exstatic to get a group placement at Westminster-but we really dont want our breed to win BIS. Our breed judge like females so my boy just got to say he has been there and done that.
     
  • Moliphino

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jun 29, 2016
    If you are clues you should not comment-and you are clueless. Dedicated preservation breeders work to preserver the heritage traits and instincts that dogs were developed with for herding livestock guarding, hunting and guarding. They spend hours researching pedigrees and gene pools to prevent just the things you are talking about. Its the breeders who breed to meet demand for puppies without regard to standards and health testing that do damage. Just because you repeat stupid AR trivia does not make it the truth-it just means you have failed to do proper self education
    Maybe true of those who breed the dogs to work. Show breeders are the ones responsible for the German shepherds hip issues, for example, because they want that "breed standard" sloped back that's not at all healthy for the dog.
     

    jsmith

    <font color=darkorchid>And now I am off to get my
    Joined
    Nov 21, 2000
    Maybe true of those who breed the dogs to work. Show breeders are the ones responsible for the German shepherds hip issues, for example, because they want that "breed standard" sloped back that's not at all healthy for the dog
    Again actually not true-displaysia issues are endemic to most larger breeds and are somewhat genetic but can also be exacerbated by thing like walking steps or to much overly rambunctious play as puppies. Most breeders work very hard to eliminate the genetic element. The GSD's historical working job was to be a living fence and the sloped croup contributed to their ability to move low and unobtrusively amoung the sheep or cattle. No true dedicated preservation breeder strives to produce crippled dogs-and if you believe that they do then again-some self education in reality would be helpful.
     

    lovin'fl

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jun 7, 2011
    Again actually not true-displaysia issues are endemic to most larger breeds and are somewhat genetic but can also be exacerbated by thing like walking steps or to much overly rambunctious play as puppies. Most breeders work very hard to eliminate the genetic element. The GSD's historical working job was to be a living fence and the sloped croup contributed to their ability to move low and unobtrusively amoung the sheep or cattle. No true dedicated preservation breeder strives to produce crippled dogs-and if you believe that they do then again-some self education in reality would be helpful.
    Also neutering a dog too young can result in hip displaysia. We had a Brittany that was neutered super young, like 2 months old, and he developed hip displaysia pretty much right away (like 12-18 months old). SIL has a bullmastiff and they were told to wait to neuter so as not to get hip displaysia. He was well over 1 when they finally neutered.
     

    Moliphino

    DIS Veteran
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    Jun 29, 2016
    Again actually not true-displaysia issues are endemic to most larger breeds and are somewhat genetic but can also be exacerbated by thing like walking steps or to much overly rambunctious play as puppies. Most breeders work very hard to eliminate the genetic element. The GSD's historical working job was to be a living fence and the sloped croup contributed to their ability to move low and unobtrusively amoung the sheep or cattle. No true dedicated preservation breeder strives to produce crippled dogs-and if you believe that they do then again-some self education in reality would be helpful.
    Responsible breeders now are trying to breed out the health issues. Decades of show breeding is what bred those traits into the breeds in the first place.
     
  • Pea-n-Me

    DIS Veteran
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    Jul 18, 2004
    It's a little hard for me to fathom that the people who care so much for dogs are being blamed for all the health problems in dogs. I've always felt that most of the problems in breeds stem from those who don't give a crap and are only in it for the money OR people who just don't know any better. I don't have a dog in this fight (pun intended) as I don't breed or show dogs, but I do know about health and have followed dog issues all my life, and the amount of ignorance about dogs out there (in general) is staggering.
     

    yoopermom

    Come join Bravo by the fire...
    Joined
    Sep 27, 2000
    I remember the first Berner I ever met, it was in rural SE WI in the early 1980s. Much lighter in coat and smaller/lighter in size than today's breedings, but a very kind breed, even then, and I could tell that it would probably become extremely popular. It's breeders had come from Goldens, and felt that their temperaments were similar.

    I always think of you PNM, and your cairn, when I see all those beautiful terriers, many of whom are very low in numbers now, because people don't want the coat upkeep or don't understand the terrier temperament. It's a shame, because they are wonderful dogs, bred for a purpose.

    It's kind of like an AYCE buffet, I would like at least one from each group!

    Terri
     

    Cannot_Wait_4Disney

    Ok all you A cattle, get in ...
    Joined
    May 18, 2005
    No. The problem isn't that I don't have a clue. The problem is I do. But I knew that was coming. I even predicted it.

    Let's deal with this one right off the bat shall we?

    Weeeee want to breed heritage working traits into the dog.....Whyyyyyy can't you ignorant people without a clue seeeeee this??.....
    Let's look at the "working traits" of a modern Bulldog. How is having a cuter, more childlike face a working trait? How is difficulty breathing a working trait? How is being unable to reproduce without artificial insemination to get the female pregnant and surgery to remove the offspring a working trait? How is an underbite bred to the extreme a working trait? How is a greatly reduced ability to cool itself a working trait? How is having so many wrinkles it can barely even see a working trait? It is a trivial matter to prove that these so called working traits they want to breed into the dog aren't working traits at all and that the modern bulldog can't do the job it was once meant to do anymore because of it and because of what unwittingly came with it. . But you're not allowed to even ask those questions because you aren't one of the cool kids that has a clue. Or maybe they just say that because they flat out don't have an acceptable answer when the truth is presented. Moreover, for most breeds, the jobs that they were bred for are no longer relevant so there is no need other than dog shows to breed these so-called working traits into them in the first place. The result What was 100 years ago a healthy and athletic breed of dog is now a dog with myriad health issues that would be useless for the job it was originally supposed to do. They weren't breeding genuine work traits. They were breeding cartoonish exaggerated versions of them. Just look below. Way to breed those "legacy working traits" into a dog. Such a claim would be hilariously laughable if the result wasn't such a disaster.
    1581617511695.png

    And even if they were breeding for genuinely legacy work traits, rather than exaggerated cartoonish versions of such for breed standards, it was doomed to be a disaster anyway.
    Any time one artificially selects for a visible trait, one also unwittingly artificially selects for invisible traits that happen to be there too, many of which are bad and some of which are lethal.
    Anyone that has even had biology at the most basic of levels understands this.
    So the kennel club along with breeders either

    A) do not understand even the material taught in the most basic of biology classes.
    Or
    B) do not care.

    And anyone that even questions their methods according to them, "is ignorant" And if that doesn't work they deflect and blame it on a few bad actors. They thumb their arrogant noses up with righteous indignation and sanctimony at mixed breed breeders such as goldendoodles for putting a new twist on their already ill advised eugenics to a level slightly beyond theirs or claim it's a problem with unscrupulous inbreeders who take their ill advised eugenics to a level well beyond. Never mind that several show breeds are themselves crossbreeds and never mind that inbreeding show dogs is a problem. And never mind entire breeds of dogs weren't completely wrecked to the level they are indeed wrecked by just a few unscrupulous breeders. That the breed is in such bad shape tells you it's not just a few bad apples. The only differences between what these legacy working trait breeders along with the kennel club encourage, and what they condemn are not of kind, but are either of slight degree, or are of no degree at all.

    Now lets deal with retrievers. Yes I am aware that retrievers, like every breed have problems. But again to claim "kennel club standards" and "pedigree breeding" aren't a big reason for the problems is an exercise in self delusion. And I am also aware that there is still hope for the retriever. It isn't past the point of no return. Sadly, the Bulldog appears to be past that point. It has fallen victim to the other problem of selective breeding, lack of variability in its gene pool. And to attempt to breed some of the problems out would further reduce it and would be incredibly risky. It is an irony that the one thing the pedigree breeders hate most may be the bulldog's only way out.
     

    yoopermom

    Come join Bravo by the fire...
    Joined
    Sep 27, 2000
    It's a little hard for me to fathom that the people who care so much for dogs are being blamed for all the health problems in dogs. I've always felt that most of the problems in breeds stem from those who don't give a crap and are only in it for the money OR people who just don't know any better. I don't have a dog in this fight (pun intended) as I don't breed or show dogs, but I do know about health and have followed dog issues all my life, and the amount of ignorance about dogs out there (in general) is staggering.
    Amen. My DS just bought a new puppy, and despite being raised and trained by me, he still almost made some foolish errors, such as not checking on health clearances, etc. He ended up with a standard poodle (due to his GF's severe allergies) and did buy a "pet quality" one, but from a very reputable breeder who does proper puppy temperament testing, health checks on the parents, etc. Yes, Gracie is a little less square than she should be, and they docked her tail a little too short, but she is going to be fine for agility/obedience/etc for them, and will hopefully stay healthy for a long time. They paid more for her than they would have from a puppymill or backyard breeder, but it's "pay now or pay later" IMHO, and they will never regret starting with a healthy, well socialized puppy from a known, solid lineage.

    Terri
     

    Pea-n-Me

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 18, 2004
    Amen. My DS just bought a new puppy, and despite being raised and trained by me, he still almost made some foolish errors, such as not checking on health clearances, etc. He ended up with a standard poodle (due to his GF's severe allergies) and did buy a "pet quality" one, but from a very reputable breeder who does proper puppy temperament testing, health checks on the parents, etc. Yes, Gracie is a little less square than she should be, and they docked her tail a little too short, but she is going to be fine for agility/obedience/etc for them, and will hopefully stay healthy for a long time. They paid more for her than they would have from a puppymill or backyard breeder, but it's "pay now or pay later" IMHO, and they will never regret starting with a healthy, well socialized puppy from a known, solid lineage.

    Terri
    It must be fun to have a puppy around again!

    You know the rule about pictures!:laughing:
     

    belleatdisney

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Feb 26, 2017
    The golden Daniel also won his group in the Purina show on Thanksgiving. I was so excited he might make it all the way. Beautiful dog.
     

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