My Journey to 50 miles (2nd attempt)... (comments welcome)

[DopeyBadger]

@DopeyBadger Billy, Donna heads out of town on Tuesday. While she's gone, can I just run her portion of my training as EA runs instead of the run/walk I would normally do with her?

Yes, EA or slower is fine. How long will you be apart? I wouldn’t do the double on Sunday if you don’t have to.

 

[disneygpa]

Yes, EA or slower is fine. How long will you be apart? I wouldn’t do the double on Sunday if you don’t have to.

We'll be back together the following Wednesday. So, I'll probably skip her portion Sunday then! Thanks!

 

[disneygpa]

Last week was a rough week for running. Donna worked late Tuesday so the plan was to run that run on Thursday but I wasn't feeling up to running on Thursday. Wednesday I took off work early to get my run in before going to the dentist to get a tooth pulled. I really thought I'd be ok, by Thursday but the lack of food and the bleeding from my mouth really had me worn down. Friday is a normal day off, so we went ahead and rested that day.

Donna and I talked about what to run on Saturday and she decided that she wanted to try and run her 10 min intervals vs running 5.25m at her easy run/walk.
I think it was the right decision as she did great! Finally on Sunday we got back on schedule and ran her 9 miles!!! Proud of her! She said she was feeling great at the end of the run and thinks she could go further!

Hopefully this week won't be quite as screwed up as last week.






While running the 9 miles last night, the discussion of setting goals was brought up. We talked about what happens after she runs her half. She's entertaining the idea of running a full now! She says she won't commit until after the half. I think she'll give it a try. Especially if we can do it marathon weekend at the parks!

 

[DopeyBadger]

While running the 9 miles last night, the discussion of setting goals was brought up. We talked about what happens after she runs her half. She's entertaining the idea of running a full now! She says she won't commit until after the half. I think she'll give it a try. Especially if we can do it marathon weekend at the parks!

And so it begins....

 

[disneygpa]

Last week was a pretty good week. Got all my runs in. Had to cut Thursday a little short because of tummy troubles and Garmin was dead for Saturday's run. All in all a good week. Going to miss Tuesday this week because of travel. Heading to FL to spend Christmas and New Years with the kids/grandkids! I'm so excited!! Haven't seen them since August.







Sunday's trail run was pretty good. I can already see where the mental breakdown could happen. Going up Cleator Rd. It's nearly 3 miles of continuous uphill. It's different than running the trail where you have switchbacks and hope that the hill might end. I kinda feel if I can conquer that, the rest of the run will fall into place.

@DopeyBadger Billy, I have a dilemma and I'm not sure if there's anything I or you can do about it. I invited my niece to run the race and train with me. I love having her out there with me. It's nice to have someone to talk to. The problem is that she is fair bit slower than I was expecting. My first run on the trail by myself was nearly 2 min/mile faster than the last two she has run with me. I can't just up and leave her on the trail, she's not really familiar with the area and it would kind of defeat the purpose of inviting her.

As you can see I came up short of 10 miles on Sunday some of that was my Garmin getting a little lost and some of it was because of the slower paces. I guess my question is, can anything really be done about it at this point? If she continues to run at this pace, I'll need an extra hour to finish the race in March.

 

[DopeyBadger]

@DopeyBadger Billy, I have a dilemma and I'm not sure if there's anything I or you can do about it. I invited my niece to run the race and train with me. I love having her out there with me. It's nice to have someone to talk to. The problem is that she is fair bit slower than I was expecting. My first run on the trail by myself was nearly 2 min/mile faster than the last two she has run with me. I can't just up and leave her on the trail, she's not really familiar with the area and it would kind of defeat the purpose of inviting her.

As you can see I came up short of 10 miles on Sunday some of that was my Garmin getting a little lost and some of it was because of the slower paces. I guess my question is, can anything really be done about it at this point? If she continues to run at this pace, I'll need an extra hour to finish the race in March.

What kind of training is she doing outside of these massive trail runs? It's entirely possible she could improve between now and March depending on what she's doing otherwise. I think the more important thing is that you realize she is slower than you and you're not crushing her with a far too aggressive pace.

As for the run itself, only you can balance the desire for running for time in March against the pleasure of running with your niece. They can be different fulfilling life purposes. Maybe it's a good thing and going slower this time around will allow you to soak in more of the atmosphere. Additionally, it allows you to gain some comfortableness with the process such that the next time around you do it, you've got that "learned experience" quality to it.

 

[disneygpa]

What kind of training is she doing outside of these massive trail runs? It's entirely possible she could improve between now and March depending on what she's doing otherwise. I think the more important thing is that you realize she is slower than you and you're not crushing her with a far too aggressive pace.

As for the run itself, only you can balance the desire for running for time in March against the pleasure of running with your niece. They can be different fulfilling life purposes. Maybe it's a good thing and going slower this time around will allow you to soak in more of the atmosphere. Additionally, it allows you to gain some comfortableness with the process such that the next time around you do it, you've got that "learned experience" quality to it.

She is supposed to be running during the week. I don't know exactly how much she's doing. I showed her what my plan was and she came up with something she thought she could work into her job and weight lifting. Maybe I need to ask her about it.

She did better this time than last, I think at least some of this is mental. Some of those climbs are pretty intimidating and seem like they'll never end.

I do enjoy having a partner out there on the trails. It's not like I'm in my 20's anymore. A tumble or slip could be quite a disaster for me if I were alone.

Guess I'll just enjoy the slower paces and the views along the route!! There are some pretty views.

Another question. I know that in the past you've said that the time is the important part not so much the distance. If I'm going to slow these runs down, should I shoot for the distance instead of the time?

 

[DopeyBadger]

Another question. I know that in the past you've said that the time is the important part not so much the distance. If I'm going to slow these runs down, should I shoot for the distance instead of the time?

In most cases, this is an easy question. The time and effort are what matter, not so much the distance. So I almost always say, stick to the duration not the distance. But I could see an argument where things get tricky when you're SO far off original pace. Like normally we're talking about 10-30-45 sec/mile "off" pace. But 2 min/mile is quite a bit more. So does the dramatic reduction in pace/effort offset the extra time. For instance, how does an 8.85 mile 17:14 paced run compare to a 10 mile 15:00 paced run? Does the 12% change in distance get offset by the 13% change in pace? And how different is a 10 mile run at 17:14 (171 min) than a 10 mile run at 15:00 (150 min)? That would be a 14% increase in time.

So I decided to take a highly theoretical stab at it. I'm making the assumption that your HR Stress Score per HR is the same for every relative pace. I don't know that to be true. Second, I'm using some of my 30/30 sec run/walk with Gigi to get an idea as to what kind of HR SS/hr values I get for paces wildly slower than my normal paces. I also adjusted the pace tree based on what my current fitness was at that moment in time as well. I then plotted these all against each other on a graph, and then used a power line of best fit.





The green and red lines are mine. The blue line is yours. The shape of green and red diverge a bit on how they're using their super easy paces. But your blue and my red aren't terribly different from each other when you look at the slope of the curve. So a 17:17 pace would be a TSS/hr of ~23 and 15:07 pace would be a TSS/hr of ~31. So a 171 min run at 23/hr is 65.5 TSS and a 150 min run at 31/hr is 77.5 TSS. So the 150 min run at a 15:07 min/mile would have a higher TSS than the 17:17 min/mile run of equal distance. For the 17:17 min/mile run to be of equivalent TSS, it would need to be 3:22 long or 11.7 miles in length.

TSS is not the end all be all, but simply an evaluative tool for training plan development.

One caveat to this comparison. Mine is road vs road and yours is road vs MEGA trail. So where those efforts are for your on the trail are definitely going to be shifted downwards. The goal effort for your trail runs is a 13 min/mile. The actual adjusted expected pace for the 12/20 run was a 15:15 min/mile. So if we adjust your trail runs down to GAP effort levels, then we should be comparing 13 min/mile pace (or 15:15 training plan pace) to 15 min/mile pace (or 17 min/mile actual pace with niece). So that would be 45 SS/hr vs 31 SS/hr. Or 112.5 planned vs 88.4 actual. Again to make them equivalent would be 3:37 hours of the 17 min/mile paced run, or 12.8 miles.

Now let's compare 5k Pace/Effort to 10k Pace/Effort. 5k pace is 104 SS/hr and 10k pace is 99 SS/hr. A difference of about 5%. The difference between the paces is about 4%. Despite my ability to hold 10k pace for nearly 200% longer than 5k pace. So this is where I think the comparison above could be faulty. Because a hard 10k is a TSS of 66 (40 min run at 99 SS/hr) and a hard 5k is a TSS of 35 (20 min run at 104 SS/hr). But there's no way I'd argue that doing the equivalent TSS of the 10k in a 5k would make them equally difficult. Because that would require me to do 38 min of my 5k pace (or 5.7 miles of 5k pace). Yea... something seems off with that. That's why intensity matters when evaluating what the actual impact of a run is. And I haven't seen a calculation quite taking that into account as well. I mean there is something to say that it takes minimal time to recover from a 5k compared to a 10k, but in the moment, they both suck to run at those paces for far unequal amounts of time.

So I think cutting off your runs at the desired duration is still the safer choice. I think it's better to be safer at the end of the day. I'd rather be a little undertrained than a little overtrained. Of course I say that, and then some days I can't convince myself to get out of the way of myself.

 

[disneygpa]

In most cases, this is an easy question. The time and effort are what matter, not so much the distance. So I almost always say, stick to the duration not the distance. But I could see an argument where things get tricky when you're SO far off original pace. Like normally we're talking about 10-30-45 sec/mile "off" pace. But 2 min/mile is quite a bit more. So does the dramatic reduction in pace/effort offset the extra time. For instance, how does an 8.85 mile 17:14 paced run compare to a 10 mile 15:00 paced run? Does the 12% change in distance get offset by the 13% change in pace? And how different is a 10 mile run at 17:14 (171 min) than a 10 mile run at 15:00 (150 min)? That would be a 14% increase in time.

So I decided to take a highly theoretical stab at it. I'm making the assumption that your HR Stress Score per HR is the same for every relative pace. I don't know that to be true. Second, I'm using some of my 30/30 sec run/walk with Gigi to get an idea as to what kind of HR SS/hr values I get for paces wildly slower than my normal paces. I also adjusted the pace tree based on what my current fitness was at that moment in time as well. I then plotted these all against each other on a graph, and then used a power line of best fit.

View attachment 545154

View attachment 545153

The green and red lines are mine. The blue line is yours. The shape of green and red diverge a bit on how they're using their super easy paces. But your blue and my red aren't terribly different from each other when you look at the slope of the curve. So a 17:17 pace would be a TSS/hr of ~23 and 15:07 pace would be a TSS/hr of ~31. So a 171 min run at 23/hr is 65.5 TSS and a 150 min run at 31/hr is 77.5 TSS. So the 150 min run at a 15:07 min/mile would have a higher TSS than the 17:17 min/mile run of equal distance. For the 17:17 min/mile run to be of equivalent TSS, it would need to be 3:22 long or 11.7 miles in length.

TSS is not the end all be all, but simply an evaluative tool for training plan development.

One caveat to this comparison. Mine is road vs road and yours is road vs MEGA trail. So where those efforts are for your on the trail are definitely going to be shifted downwards. The goal effort for your trail runs is a 13 min/mile. The actual adjusted expected pace for the 12/20 run was a 15:15 min/mile. So if we adjust your trail runs down to GAP effort levels, then we should be comparing 13 min/mile pace (or 15:15 training plan pace) to 15 min/mile pace (or 17 min/mile actual pace with niece). So that would be 45 SS/hr vs 31 SS/hr. Or 112.5 planned vs 88.4 actual. Again to make them equivalent would be 3:37 hours of the 17 min/mile paced run, or 12.8 miles.

Now let's compare 5k Pace/Effort to 10k Pace/Effort. 5k pace is 104 SS/hr and 10k pace is 99 SS/hr. A difference of about 5%. The difference between the paces is about 4%. Despite my ability to hold 10k pace for nearly 200% longer than 5k pace. So this is where I think the comparison above could be faulty. Because a hard 10k is a TSS of 66 (40 min run at 99 SS/hr) and a hard 5k is a TSS of 35 (20 min run at 104 SS/hr). But there's no way I'd argue that doing the equivalent TSS of the 10k in a 5k would make them equally difficult. Because that would require me to do 38 min of my 5k pace (or 5.7 miles of 5k pace). Yea... something seems off with that. That's why intensity matters when evaluating what the actual impact of a run is. And I haven't seen a calculation quite taking that into account as well. I mean there is something to say that it takes minimal time to recover from a 5k compared to a 10k, but in the moment, they both suck to run at those paces for far unequal amounts of time.

So I think cutting off your runs at the desired duration is still the safer choice. I think it's better to be safer at the end of the day. I'd rather be a little undertrained than a little overtrained. Of course I say that, and then some days I can't convince myself to get out of the way of myself.

Holy smokes!! I am always impressed with the thought you put into questions!! Thank you for the break down on how you came to the conclusion!!


I'll continue to run the prescribed time and just enjoy it!

I really appreciate everything!!

 

[disneygpa]

Well it's been awhile since I updated this thing.

Running has been going good. I think I only missed one run on my travel to FL day.

Where have I been? Well, I got to go see my grandkids/kids for Christmas!!! So this update will have very little running news and a lot of family news.

When I left Seattle it looked like this.


The first morning I ran in FL looked like this! It was a tad chilly, maybe mid 40's but oh so nice to run in!!



Coffee on the patio almost every morning looked like this!



Family time in the evening making smores looked like this!!



Grandma and granpa's gift to the grandkids was a huge hit! I think they will wear this trampoline out!!



This is the first picture I have with ALL 5 grandkids in the same pic.... I already miss these smiles!!



Sunrise yesterday morning as I left from MCO...



Finally something running related. I know that the Garmin VO2 isn't super accurate but this is the first time I've seen it at 44! Feeling pretty good about this number!


There was some potential bad news during the trip. Donna slipped on some wet tile at the kids house and has had some knee pain since the fall. She's not due to come back until Monday and will go see the doc when she gets back. It seems like an IT band issue but since it started after the fall, I think she needs to get it looked at. She's able to run for a few miles pain free, and can eek out an extra mile with some mid run stretching. Right now she's managed to get most of her runs in since she left but she's taking it easy. She says that running a little faster helps to ease the pain, so I kinda just let her run whatever was comfortable while I was with her. She's supposed to do 10.5 on Sunday, but I told her to only give it a shot if she was pain free. She's kinda hard headed, so I'll see what she does. After the doc's diagnosis we may need a new plan for the half in Feb. More to come.....

We went house hunting while there. Found a few that we really liked and we'll be getting more serious about it after we sell our place in WA. Anyone want to buy it? It has a great view of the mountains!!

Running in that area in FL is weird. I don't recall ever having a 5 mile run with 30ft of elevation gain. Last nights run in WA had 335ft in 5 miles. Crazy how flat that area is. Also, I find it really difficult to get my bearings there. Here in WA we have mountains to the east and water to the west so it's pretty easy to figure out which way is north. But down there, everything looks the same. If the sun isn't rising or setting I can get turned around pretty easy!! Thank goodness for GPS.

Hope everyone had a great holiday or at least as great as it could be!!

 

[DopeyBadger]

There was some potential bad news during the trip. Donna slipped on some wet tile at the kids house and has had some knee pain since the fall. She's not due to come back until Monday and will go see the doc when she gets back. It seems like an IT band issue but since it started after the fall, I think she needs to get it looked at. She's able to run for a few miles pain free, and can eek out an extra mile with some mid run stretching. Right now she's managed to get most of her runs in since she left but she's taking it easy. She says that running a little faster helps to ease the pain, so I kinda just let her run whatever was comfortable while I was with her. She's supposed to do 10.5 on Sunday, but I told her to only give it a shot if she was pain free. She's kinda hard headed, so I'll see what she does. After the doc's diagnosis we may need a new plan for the half in Feb. More to come.....

Ugh, what a bummer! Hoping for a quick recovery. Tell her to take it easy.

 

[col1]

Sounds like an awesome trip, time with the family is good for the soul. Sorry to hear about your wife's issue , if it is IT band which I have issues with then I have found a gradual rehab is the best thing when it flares up, hope it turns out to be minor.

 

[disneygpa]

Ugh, what a bummer! Hoping for a quick recovery. Tell her to take it easy.

I passed this along! But like I said, she's hard headed and doesn't always listen to me!!

Of course coming from you she might listen!!

Sounds like an awesome trip, time with the family is good for the soul. Sorry to hear about your wife's issue , if it is IT band which I have issues with then I have found a gradual rehab is the best thing when it flares up, hope it turns out to be minor.

She's supposed to be stretching twice a day. Hopefully she'll keep it up until she can see the doc.

Thursday's run was very pleasant. I didn't put any paces into my Garmin because it was supposed to be a run with Donna. So I just took off at what was comfortable and easy! Decided to add some gradual hills into the run since I kind of missed them while in FL. Weather was pleasant, especially for Jan in the PNW. Overall a nice run.



Turned out to be a little faster than an EA run, but even if I'd programmed the pace I probably would have been only a few seconds slower.

I'm feeling a little fatigue in my hips the last few days. I'm hoping it was from sleeping on a very firm mattress in FL and that being home and stretching will resolve the issue. If it isn't better in a couple weeks or it gets worse I'll see the doc.

 

[disneygpa]

So, a year ago I ran my first marathon and completed Dopey.


Who would have thought that the highlight of 2020 for me would come in January.
I'm dang proud of that achievement! But, at the same time I want to see what else I can do.
Late March will be my first shot at a 50k. I've got a great training plan (Thanks Billy!) And I'm feeling pretty good about my progress.
If I complete the 50k with no injuries, I'm eyeing a 50 miler in Sept.... right now I'm trying to stay focused on the 50k.

Lot's of plans ahead for 2021. Probably going to put our house on the market. If it sells, I may retire at the end of July. If that happens, we'll be off to sunny FL! If it sells, I'll have to reevaluate the 50 miler. I probably won't be here to run it. Though I'm sure they have 50 milers in FL.

Already have a few travel plans for 2021. We are still heading to FL to run Princess, even though we won't be at the parks. Since we already had the plans and it's a good excuse to see the kids/grandkids, we thought we might as well keep the plans. After that it's off to Hawaii in April to stay at Aulanii with my buddy and his wife! He's DVC and invited us to come spend 12 days with them! Whoop whoop!! I've never been to Hawaii so there are a ton of things I need to do and see. Number one on my list is Pearl Harbor.... After that, everything is a bonus!!

I'll turn 55 in July and become eligible for retirement from Boeing. That decision still weighs heavily on me. It's a tough decision to walk after being there 30yrs.

I hope 2021 isn't quite the crap show that 2020 was. (though it's not starting out promising)
Would love to be able to do some live races or at least go out to dinner and dancing!!

We were supposed to do 10.5 miles today. Donna is still in FL until Monday and just text me and asked if we could shuffle runs around so she can run it with me here. The only thing I can think to do is move it to Tuesday and shuffle some of the other runs around. Thoughts Billy? For some reason I can't tag you in this.

 

[col1]

Sounds like a busy year ahead, Hawaii sounds awesome as does retiring to Florida and being nearer the family

We have a few similarities in our paths at the moment, I am now eligible for my pension after 34 years with the same company (32 years in the pensions as I joined at 16 but not allowed in the scheme until 18.)

We sold our house just before Xmas and will be moving further North to be nearer family and to be by the coast.

It means I will be okay if I were to made redundant due to the pandemic but to be honest although I would have a larger pension if I hang on to 55 which was always my target I am so fed up and now I know I can access the pension it makes it harder.

My company has changed a lot and I really don't enjoy it but to pull the trigger myself without an external driver such as redundancy is huge.

I hope it all works out the way you want it too, moving closer to family and to a warm climate is always a good move just the other stuff to figure out good luck on all your plans running and otherwise.

Col

 

[DopeyBadger]

We were supposed to do 10.5 miles today. Donna is still in FL until Monday and just text me and asked if we could shuffle runs around so she can run it with me here. The only thing I can think to do is move it to Tuesday and shuffle some of the other runs around. Thoughts Billy? For some reason I can't tag you in this.

If she is healthy enough to run it on Tuesday (1/12/21), then that's fine. Did she miss any runs in the mean time because we may want to reduce the volume of the LR if so? In order to do the LR on Tuesday, then both you and her should drop the Wed/Thurs runs down in difficulty and duration. But before we go down that road, I'd need to hear more about the training for Donna in the last week.

 

[disneygpa]

If she is healthy enough to run it on Tuesday (1/12/21), then that's fine. Did she miss any runs in the mean time because we may want to reduce the volume of the LR if so? In order to do the LR on Tuesday, then both you and her should drop the Wed/Thurs runs down in difficulty and duration. But before we go down that road, I'd need to hear more about the training for Donna in the last week.

She did 4.73 miles on Sunday 1/3/21, her HM Tempo run on Tuesday 1/5/21 4.75 miles, 4 miles on Thursday (1/7/21), 3 miles on Saturday (1/9/21) and 2.25 miles today (Sunday1/10/21).
So pretty much everything on the plan except a little short on Saturday and a lot short this Sunday. She won't be running tomorrow because its a travel day and she doesn't run on Monday anyway. Hopefully this isn't a big monkey wrench.

 

[disneygpa]

My company has changed a lot and I really don't enjoy it but to pull the trigger myself without an external driver such as redundancy is huge.

Wow, we are definitely on similar paths!

My company has changed immensely in the last 30 years. It used to feel like family there, and now it just feels like your a number and a cog in their giant wheel. I'd planned on staying until 58 but with the kids moving to FL and the lack of job satisfaction it seems like the right time to make the move.

Good luck with your plans also!!

 

[DopeyBadger]

She did 4.73 miles on Sunday 1/3/21, her HM Tempo run on Tuesday 1/5/21 4.75 miles, 4 miles on Thursday (1/7/21), 3 miles on Saturday (1/9/21) and 2.25 miles today (Sunday1/10/21).
So pretty much everything on the plan except a little short on Saturday and a lot short this Sunday. She won't be running tomorrow because its a travel day and she doesn't run on Monday anyway. Hopefully this isn't a big monkey wrench.

Alright, then:

Donna
1/12 - 10.5 miles at Easy/LR
1/14 - 4 miles at Easy/LR
Continue as written

Derek
1/11 - 5 miles at EA
1/12 - 10.5 miles at Easy/LR
1/13 - 3 miles at EA
1/14 - 4 miles at Easy/LR
Continue as written

 

[disneygpa]

Alright, then:

Donna
1/12 - 10.5 miles at Easy/LR
1/14 - 4 miles at Easy/LR
Continue as written

Derek
1/11 - 5 miles at EA
1/12 - 10.5 miles at Easy/LR
1/13 - 3 miles at EA
1/14 - 4 miles at Easy/LR
Continue as written

Perfect! Thanks Billy!!