"We're all mad here"... Journal to Dopey 2020 (comments welcome)

disneygpa

Mouseketeer
Joined
Aug 31, 2018
Weekend runs.

Saturday. I should have gotten up early and gotten it done but I was lazy and slept in. This ultimately ended up hurting me because I was rushed in the afternoon to get the run done and skipped my stretching before and after.

10_5_19.PNG

Pacing wasn't too bad. Run felt good but definitely should have done my stretching.

Sunday. CV run. Wow! Was I beat after this! Seems as though I came up a little short on the distance and time. I think I should have been maybe running 3 min @ CV and 3 min @ RI. Not really sure but I think this would make sense and the time and distance would have been what was in the plan. Even though it was tough I really enjoyed the running faster! Looking forward to the next CV run!

10_6_19.PNG
 

disneygpa

Mouseketeer
Joined
Aug 31, 2018
Tuesday morning. Up at 0230, stretch, run, stretch, work....

3.5 miles @ EA
Pretty normal morning EA run with the exception of spooking a deer and scaring the crap out of myself. Nothing like hearing something running through the trees at 3am...

10_8_19.PNG

Pacing was pretty good.
I'm not ready for the cold yet!! Had to wear a cap and gloves this morning. Tomorrow is supposed to be down in the 30's. I'll probably have to add a base layer on top tomorrow. Ugh.....
 

disneygpa

Mouseketeer
Joined
Aug 31, 2018
@DopeyBadger Hey Billy, can we talk run fuel for a minute. I have a nutrition run coming up on Sunday. I've tried GU, Sports Beans and Clif Bloks. All of them are fine as far as GI issues and taste. Sports Beans are probably my favorite but I find them hard to eat on the run so I have taken to walking and eating them as fast as I can to get back to running.

My question is whether or not I can just use Tailwind as my run nutrition? Can I just mix it up and use it throughout the run? Just curious what your opinion or anyone else that happens to read this might be?
 
  • DopeyBadger

    Imagathoner
    Joined
    Oct 15, 2015
    @DopeyBadger Hey Billy, can we talk run fuel for a minute. I have a nutrition run coming up on Sunday. I've tried GU, Sports Beans and Clif Bloks. All of them are fine as far as GI issues and taste. Sports Beans are probably my favorite but I find them hard to eat on the run so I have taken to walking and eating them as fast as I can to get back to running.

    My question is whether or not I can just use Tailwind as my run nutrition? Can I just mix it up and use it throughout the run? Just curious what your opinion or anyone else that happens to read this might be?
    There are lots of different possible options when fueling. The most important consideratons are probably palatability and GI issues which you seem to have none of from what you've tried thus far. The other consideration is how much total content you're trying to aim for. In a race scenario, that's going to be dictated by your relative pace and the duration of exercise. I've got a calculator that does some "average" math to determine in-race needs. On a single carb source (ie just glucose, just fructose, just maltodrexting) the max is 60g carbs per hour. A multi source (ie maltodrextin + fructose) can be as high as 100g depending on the formulation/ratio of the source. From there it's a matter of finding whether you're hitting the supposed minimum based on the calculator and whether you can actually tolerate anywhere close to the maximum.

    Outside of a few sources (Maurten and SIS Beta Fuel) most every carb product needs to be consumed at a rate of 2g carbs per 1 oz water. So eat 30g carbs from chews and you need 15oz water, eat 50g carbs from gel and you need 25 oz water, drink 10 oz Tailwind mixed at a 2g:1oz ratio and that's all you need to drink.

    A key consideration for Tailwind vs GU, Sports Beans, and Blocks is carrying them. The chewing items are denser and thus take less to carry. If you instead did Tailwind for the entire race, then you'd need to have some mechanism to carry enough of it to make it through the race. Whether thats a fuel belt or vest or something like that. You could go some Tailwind and some chews, as long as you stay with the 2g carb per oz water and 60g or 100g limits, then it's fine to mix different products. Where people get into trouble is doing 25g Blocks and washing it down with 12.5 oz Tailwind. The Tailwind already has carbs in it and thus can not be used by the body to properly absorb the Blocks. Thus, the blocks just become a mess inside the body and/or the body pulls water from the muscles to absorb/digest it.
     

    disneygpa

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Aug 31, 2018
    There are lots of different possible options when fueling. The most important consideratons are probably palatability and GI issues which you seem to have none of from what you've tried thus far. The other consideration is how much total content you're trying to aim for. In a race scenario, that's going to be dictated by your relative pace and the duration of exercise. I've got a calculator that does some "average" math to determine in-race needs. On a single carb source (ie just glucose, just fructose, just maltodrexting) the max is 60g carbs per hour. A multi source (ie maltodrextin + fructose) can be as high as 100g depending on the formulation/ratio of the source. From there it's a matter of finding whether you're hitting the supposed minimum based on the calculator and whether you can actually tolerate anywhere close to the maximum.

    Outside of a few sources (Maurten and SIS Beta Fuel) most every carb product needs to be consumed at a rate of 2g carbs per 1 oz water. So eat 30g carbs from chews and you need 15oz water, eat 50g carbs from gel and you need 25 oz water, drink 10 oz Tailwind mixed at a 2g:1oz ratio and that's all you need to drink.

    A key consideration for Tailwind vs GU, Sports Beans, and Blocks is carrying them. The chewing items are denser and thus take less to carry. If you instead did Tailwind for the entire race, then you'd need to have some mechanism to carry enough of it to make it through the race. Whether thats a fuel belt or vest or something like that. You could go some Tailwind and some chews, as long as you stay with the 2g carb per oz water and 60g or 100g limits, then it's fine to mix different products. Where people get into trouble is doing 25g Blocks and washing it down with 12.5 oz Tailwind. The Tailwind already has carbs in it and thus can not be used by the body to properly absorb the Blocks. Thus, the blocks just become a mess inside the body and/or the body pulls water from the muscles to absorb/digest it.
    Thanks! I think for Sunday's run, I'm going to give just the Tailwind a shot and see how it sets with me. Running, chewing and breathing all at the same time seem to be a struggle for me!
     

    disneygpa

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Aug 31, 2018
    Couple days behind here.

    Wednesday's run was 3.5m @ EB + strides. Run was uneventful and pleasant. I waited until the afternoon to run. This was probably a good decision, the weather was much nicer in the afternoon!! Pacing was pretty good and I still love to sprint during strides!!

    10_9_19.PNG

    Thursday's run was my first blind progression run. I gotta say I really enjoyed this even though I probably ran it harder than I should have. I'm including my cadence and pacing graphs for reference. I felt really accomplished after this, I wasn't sure how it was going to go and I surprised myself when I looked at the paces. The last 5 min was tough but I think I could have stretched that pace to 10 min if I had too. Really makes me fairly confident that I could run a sub 9 mile! 8-)

    10_10_19.PNGcadence 10_10_19.PNGpace 10_10_19.PNG

    Looking forward to more progression runs in the future. But right now I'm looking forward to my EA run this afternoon!!
     

    DopeyBadger

    Imagathoner
    Joined
    Oct 15, 2015
    Really makes me fairly confident that I could run a sub 9 mile! 8-)
    Me too! So much so, I'd say you already did...

    Adding interval 5, 6, and 7 together gives us 1.69 miles (1 + 0.09 + 0.6). It was completed in 15 minutes (9:10 + 0:50 + 5:00).

    15 min / 1.69 miles = 8:52 min/mile

    So you didn't just run a sub-9 min/mile. You ran 1.69 miles at sub-9 min/mile pace. 8-)

    Looks like it is time to adjust the paces!

    Screen Shot 2019-10-11 at 1.33.08 PM.png

    I'm probably underselling this still because 1/2 distance of 5k at pace (8:52 min/mile) is still very aggressive in a training run, but I want to be cautious on bumping this too far up. See how these new paces feel.
     
  • disneygpa

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Aug 31, 2018
    Me too! So much so, I'd say you already did...

    Adding interval 5, 6, and 7 together gives us 1.69 miles (1 + 0.09 + 0.6). It was completed in 15 minutes (9:10 + 0:50 + 5:00).

    15 min / 1.69 miles = 8:52 min/mile

    So you didn't just run a sub-9 min/mile. You ran 1.69 miles at sub-9 min/mile pace. 8-)

    Looks like it is time to adjust the paces!

    View attachment 443261

    I'm probably underselling this still because 1/2 distance of 5k at pace (8:52 min/mile) is still very aggressive in a training run, but I want to be cautious on bumping this too far up. See how these new paces feel.
    WooHooooooooo I got new paces!! :rockband:

    I'm probably way more excited about this than I should be!

    I feel great about this! Feels like recognition for all the early mornings and putting in the work even while on vacation! Can't wait to test out the new paces!

    Thanks Coach!!
     

    disneygpa

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Aug 31, 2018
    New paces weekend!! All went well.

    New paces are definitely harder but not overwhelming.

    Left knee is feeling a little fatigued this morning. No pain, it just feels tired in the same spot as before. Not really concerned about it as the stretching seems to be helping. Just wanting to make note of it here just in case I need to reference it later with the doc.

    Going to take it easy today. Heading up to the running store to get a new pair of runners as I'm at my mileage limit on these. I'm probably going to stick with the Glycerin 17's, though I might try the Ghost. I haven't decided and I've had pretty good success with the Glycerin so I might be too chicken to change at this point.

    10_11_19.PNG10_12_19.PNG10_13_19.PNG

    Pacing was pretty good for me! I was mostly within the window of +/- 10 sec.

    In reference to the 8 mile run... there is something about that pace that is really comfortable for me. As I was finishing up the 8th miles I realized that my breathing was great, and I felt really good! Felt like I could probably go longer pretty easily. The tailwind worked well as fuel as far as I could tell. No GI issues, taste good, and was easier to take in for me than eating. My hand water bottle holds about 16 oz of water so I tried to mix in approx. 32 grams of tailwind. I could only guesstimate because the whole package is 50 grams. I suspect that isn't going to be enough carbs/hour in a race. So.... I need a bigger water bottle. Something that holds 25 oz.

    So, question. Is there a way to fill up my water bottle at the water stops during Dopey? Could I just carry the Tailwind powder with me and fill up my water bottle along the course? I think I'd need at least 4 or 5 bottle refills along the way. This sound about right? @DopeyBadger

    Of course if I'm going to stop long enough to fill up a water bottle, maybe it just makes more sense to carry sports beans or bloks….
     

    DopeyBadger

    Imagathoner
    Joined
    Oct 15, 2015
    So, question. Is there a way to fill up my water bottle at the water stops during Dopey? Could I just carry the Tailwind powder with me and fill up my water bottle along the course? I think I'd need at least 4 or 5 bottle refills along the way. This sound about right? @DopeyBadger
    You can absolutely refill your water bottle along the way. I've carried a 10oz Nathan handheld and filled up when I needed to at Disney. There are 19 aid stations in the marathon and they're usually quite long. Sometimes on occasion they even have people who will pour directly into your bottle at the end of the aid station.

    Could you carry the Tailwind on course and fill it as you go? Yea, you could do it in theory. I tried that a few times in 2014-2015 with other powder products and it does get quite messy if you don't slow down your pace that much. And then it ends up all over your hands with nothing to wash it off. Tailwind is sold in individual packets (25g carb per each). So you can do it that way, or package them yourself into a bigger vessel. The other option is to make a concentrated form of Tailwind in your 16oz bottle and then sip from it at scheduled intervals. You'd still need to drink the same amount of water from the aid stations though because the concentrated Tailwind needs water to be absorbed by your GI tract.

    I suspect that isn't going to be enough carbs/hour in a race.
    Let's say you're going for optimal performance in each race. The M would take you about 4:47-5:00 hours. Let's say 5 hours for math's sake. Let's also presume you decide to take in about 60g carbs/hr. So for a 5 hr race, that's going to be ~270g carbs (because once you hit about 30 min to go it isn't necessary to consume carbs anymore since they won't make it to the muscles by the end of the race)..

    Tailwind should be mixed at 1 scoop per every 8-12 oz water. So that's 25g carbs for every 8-12 oz of liquid consumed. In order to consume 270g carbs from Tailwind, you would need 11 individual packets:

    270 / 25g per packet = 10.8 packets (rounded to 11)

    That means you need to consume about 88-132 oz of water:

    8oz * 11 packets = 88 oz water
    12oz * 11 packets = 132 oz water

    If you were instead to make a concentrated Tailwind like I do (1 scoop in 2oz volume), then you could store ~8 packets worth in your 16oz bottle.

    16oz bottle / 2oz per scoop = 8 packets of concentrated Tailwind

    You would be ~75g carbs short (or three packets). You would still need to consume 64-96 oz of water with the concentrated Tailwind.

    8oz * 8 concentrated = 64 oz water
    12oz * 8 concentrated = 96 oz water

    One trick is anything consumed within about 15 min of the start of the race is useful for in-race carb calculations. So you could in theory drink something like Maurten 320 (80g carbs in 17oz water) at the start line, and then you'd not have to carry anything in addition to your water bottle. So something like:

    15 min prior to start - Drink 17oz Maurten 320
    45 min into race - Start drinking from Tailwind Concentrate. Drink 1-2 visible oz of fluid every ~32 minutes.

    45 min, 1:18, 1:50, 2:22, 2:54, 3:26, 3:58, 4:30

    That's one way to do the math, but not the only possible nutrition strategy you could come up with. You could mix Tailwind intake with gel intake or chew intake as well. Still making sure that you're at about 2oz water for every 1 g carb consumed. So Tailwind liquid does not count towards water consumption for gels/chews. Whatever you do choose to do, make sure you practice it in these last few weeks to make sure your body tolerates your schedule. Be forewarned that the concentrated Tailwind tastes very very sweet.
     

    disneygpa

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Aug 31, 2018
    You can absolutely refill your water bottle along the way. I've carried a 10oz Nathan handheld and filled up when I needed to at Disney. There are 19 aid stations in the marathon and they're usually quite long. Sometimes on occasion they even have people who will pour directly into your bottle at the end of the aid station.

    Could you carry the Tailwind on course and fill it as you go? Yea, you could do it in theory. I tried that a few times in 2014-2015 with other powder products and it does get quite messy if you don't slow down your pace that much. And then it ends up all over your hands with nothing to wash it off. Tailwind is sold in individual packets (25g carb per each). So you can do it that way, or package them yourself into a bigger vessel. The other option is to make a concentrated form of Tailwind in your 16oz bottle and then sip from it at scheduled intervals. You'd still need to drink the same amount of water from the aid stations though because the concentrated Tailwind needs water to be absorbed by your GI tract.



    Let's say you're going for optimal performance in each race. The M would take you about 4:47-5:00 hours. Let's say 5 hours for math's sake. Let's also presume you decide to take in about 60g carbs/hr. So for a 5 hr race, that's going to be ~270g carbs (because once you hit about 30 min to go it isn't necessary to consume carbs anymore since they won't make it to the muscles by the end of the race)..

    Tailwind should be mixed at 1 scoop per every 8-12 oz water. So that's 25g carbs for every 8-12 oz of liquid consumed. In order to consume 270g carbs from Tailwind, you would need 11 individual packets:

    270 / 25g per packet = 10.8 packets (rounded to 11)

    That means you need to consume about 88-132 oz of water:

    8oz * 11 packets = 88 oz water
    12oz * 11 packets = 132 oz water

    If you were instead to make a concentrated Tailwind like I do (1 scoop in 2oz volume), then you could store ~8 packets worth in your 16oz bottle.

    16oz bottle / 2oz per scoop = 8 packets of concentrated Tailwind

    You would be ~75g carbs short (or three packets). You would still need to consume 64-96 oz of water with the concentrated Tailwind.

    8oz * 8 concentrated = 64 oz water
    12oz * 8 concentrated = 96 oz water

    One trick is anything consumed within about 15 min of the start of the race is useful for in-race carb calculations. So you could in theory drink something like Maurten 320 (80g carbs in 17oz water) at the start line, and then you'd not have to carry anything in addition to your water bottle. So something like:

    15 min prior to start - Drink 17oz Maurten 320
    45 min into race - Start drinking from Tailwind Concentrate. Drink 1-2 visible oz of fluid every ~32 minutes.

    45 min, 1:18, 1:50, 2:22, 2:54, 3:26, 3:58, 4:30

    That's one way to do the math, but not the only possible nutrition strategy you could come up with. You could mix Tailwind intake with gel intake or chew intake as well. Still making sure that you're at about 2oz water for every 1 g carb consumed. So Tailwind liquid does not count towards water consumption for gels/chews. Whatever you do choose to do, make sure you practice it in these last few weeks to make sure your body tolerates your schedule. Be forewarned that the concentrated Tailwind tastes very very sweet.
    Wow! This is way more complicated than I expected.... Sooooo many options!

    I like the Maurten, Tailwind concentrate combo. It seems as though Maurten isn't easy to find. Any suggestions on where to buy?

    Do you just make up the water you need to absorb the Tailwind concentrate from the aid stations? I'm guessing that's probably your only option unless you carry a second water bottle...
     
  • DopeyBadger

    Imagathoner
    Joined
    Oct 15, 2015
    Wow! This is way more complicated than I expected.... Sooooo many options!

    I like the Maurten, Tailwind concentrate combo. It seems as though Maurten isn't easy to find. Any suggestions on where to buy?

    Do you just make up the water you need to absorb the Tailwind concentrate from the aid stations? I'm guessing that's probably your only option unless you carry a second water bottle...
    It can be as complicated or not as you want. Some people go to the nitty gritty and others just find what works best. There's not necessarily any right way to do it.

    My fleet feet carries it. Although I usually order directly from Maurten or The Feed.

    I try to drink 1-3 cups from each aid station. I won't be carrying any water with me. The great part about Disney is the plentiful and sizable aid stations.
     

    disneygpa

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Aug 31, 2018
    Thanks for all the help Billy!!

    Tuesday's run was good. Weather said it was 57 outside, but dang... the breeze was cold!! I may have to start wearing my gloves all the time when it's on the cool side. My fingers were freezing! I like the new paces so far! Definitely a bit more challenging!

    10_15_19.PNG

    Pacing wasn't horrible. A little too fast on the second mile and the last half mile. I think pacing is going to be a continuous work in progress for me!!
     

    disneygpa

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Aug 31, 2018
    Wednesday's run. Talk about living a charmed life. When I left on this run there was a dark cloud coming. I figured I'd be running in the rain! As I was finishing up my last stride it started sprinkling. I made it home, got my chocolate milk and then heard it coming down in buckets outside! Whew! Just beat that down pour... The run was good. 4m @ EB + Strides. I'm definitely feeling the new/faster paces, in a good way! Still not sleeping well while DW is away.

    10_16_19.PNG
    A little fast on some of the paces. I'm gonna blame being way too fast on the last mile on the strides and the impending rain!
     

    disneygpa

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Aug 31, 2018
    Have you ever had one of those days when you just didn't want to go back outside after work?
    That was me yesterday. I tried to make every excuse to not go outside and run. It was cold, very cloudy, and very windy (sustained wind at 20 gusts to 35).
    I knew this run was going to challenge me even if the weather was perfect and I really didn't want to face it after the last few days I've had at work.

    I made my slice of peanut butter toast and went in to get my stretching done. After I stretched I took might sweet time getting my shoes on, opened the door and as soon as the gust of wind hit me I REALLY didn't want to be outside!

    Down the stairs, out to the sidewalk and off I went.... should have worn my gloves... my fingers were freezing!!

    Run was to be 1 mi @ WU + (2x200m @ R w/ 200m RI) + (4x400m @ R w/400m RI) + (2x200m @ R w/ 200m RI) + 1 mi @ CD
    With my new paces R = 8:05

    10_17_19.PNG

    For the most part the pacing was pretty good. I was a little fast on most of the splits, but I usually am. I also need to work on the RI paces. The runs might not be so hard if I took all the time to recover!

    I'm glad I got myself out there and did this! Hope I don't have many more days like this. I didn't like the feeling of not being motivated.
     

    disneygpa

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Aug 31, 2018
    Weekend update:

    Saturday's run was a VERY wet run! I don't recall ever getting this wet during a run and it was GREAT!
    Other than having to dry my shoes, I really enjoyed getting out there and getting this done!
    Run was supposed to be 4.5m @ EB + Strides. Paces weren't horrible(for me) I was within my +/- 10 sec on all of them. Except the last half mile. I was a little fast but I'm gonna blame that on strides, cold/wet!!!
    10_19_19.PNG

    Sunday's run was a little drier! Didn't rain until I was almost done. Shoes had mostly dried out from the day before so that was a good thing. I screwed up inputting this run into my Garmin and it kinda messed with my brain. Instead of run-RI, repeat, I inputted run-RI-cooldown. It took me a little while to comprehend what I did wrong and I ended up running a little extra for it. The extra running was at cooldown pace so I don't really think it will hurt in the long run(no pun intended).
    This was to be my second CV run and first with the new paces! I gotta say, if this run is designed to make my legs tired it was a total success! By the end of the 5 CV interval my legs felt heavy! I didn't really think I was going to be able to do the R paces even for 250 meters... But I managed to do them and even stayed fairly close to my paces. All in all, I'd say it was a good day! Legs are a little tired today and will look forward to an EA run tomorrow!!!

    10_20_19.PNG
     


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