WDW Theme Park attendance declines

[Princesca]

I was glad to hear a couple of the podcast team acknowledge what those of us who've been holding out for a November discount were sad to learn this week - that availability for the discounts were almost nil. I totally agree with whoever it was that said (Kevin?) that this was just marketing on Disney's part. I know Pete had been talking about whether or not Disney has jumped the shark, hit the peak, etc, but I am hearing from TAs that resort bookings at Disney, at least, are at record levels, in recent memory, for fall. I don't know what to expect for my trip.

 

[disneysteve]

Disney admitted to cost cutting at domestic parks but wouldn't specify what those cuts were exactly...

They got rid of cheese sauce at Cosmic Ray's.

 

[disneysteve]

Domestic Attendance down
Domestic Hotel occupancy up

I think this piece says a lot. Hotel occupancy is up but park attendance is down. I think there are a few reasons for that.

1. Rising ticket prices haven't yet made people stop coming but they may be doing fewer park days when they come.
2. More people are including non-Disney attractions in their stays including Universal and other things even though they are staying at a Disney hotel.

 

[Princesca]

2. More people are including non-Disney attractions in their stays including Universal and other things even though they are staying at a Disney hotel.

At this point, I am hoping this is true. I spend so little time actually at the resort that I don't care so much if it's crowded - would rather have fewer crowds at the parks!

 

[tjevans]

I wasn't quite sure how to take Bob Iger's comments at the beginning of the call where he said social media posts about Shanghai were helping visitors know how to behave. With posts on social media, "guests are now coming to the park with a better understanding of what to expect and how to have the most fun while they are there." Perhaps I'm reading too much into this. . . .

From what I have gathered reading online, there are some rather "unique" behaviors of many Chinese people that are major turn-offs for westerners. The examples I have read is it is quite common, especially for those from the more rural parts of China, to allow small children to go to the bathroom right in the middle of a street or sidewalk. I have read one or two accounts from the opening days of Shanghai DL where people witnessed this even there. Another is the idea of personal space in China is practically non-existent compared to the western concept.

Disney had a major social media push in China to "educate" people on how to behave in the park both to (1) keep it sanitary and (2) prevent creeping out western visitors.

 

[disneysteve]

the idea of personal space in China is practically non-existent compared to the western concept.

I saw plenty of examples of that at WDW last month from Americans. More and more, people just seem to behave as if they are the only ones who exist even if there are other people just inches away from them.

I was about ready to strangle the guy on the ferry to MK who decided his group would start blasting music and singing the whole way. In case we weren't annoyed enough already by the 100 degree temp and the monorail being out of service so we all got herded onto the ferry like cattle.

 

[OKW Lover]

So, it sounds to me like Disney is making good on what many have suggested, raise the prices to control crowd levels. And even better, they did that while improving profits.

 

[tjevans]

I saw plenty of examples of that at WDW last month from Americans. More and more, people just seem to behave as if they are the only ones who exist even if there are other people just inches away from them.

I was about ready to strangle the guy on the ferry to MK who decided his group would start blasting music and singing the whole way. In case we weren't annoyed enough already by the 100 degree temp and the monorail being out of service so we all got herded onto the ferry like cattle.

This is why we haven't been back to WDW in almost four years. (Coupled with the fact I'm one of the producers of BO many complain about, no matter how much I bathe. I just stink to high heaven when I sweat (Oops...TMI!!))

 

[gmboy95]

Those of us who remember back to the post 9/11 days of abandoned hotel construction (art of animation), and the closing of entire swaths of hotels (Dixie landings).....remember that it was the core Disney consumer like myself and many others that kept going, spending our money, buying more points, that made it so that things didn't completely become a disaster......its also folks like myself that are completely dismayed by how that loyalty has been taken advantage of and minimized in a cost cutting, revenue increasing fever that has seen a precipitous decrease in customer service and affordability. Those that wish to be honest, remember the days where an annual trip to Disney was doable. When a family like mine could spend many Christmas days in Disney, without having to pay a "premium" fee for an annual pass. watching the continued attempted monetization of things that are now a benefit of staying on site (charging for early entry, which to me is a trial balloon to see if EMH can be monetized) is depressing.

The most recent example for me was my sister sending me a message on Facebook that we have to sign up for this dessert party for the Star Wars fireworks. It sounded fantastic...The last time I did a dessert party around fireworks was years before and it was $30 per person. When i called to set this up i was shocked to learn that for a family of four to stand in an area 10 feet from an area i can stand for free, and eat desserts, not a meal, desserts....would cost $280....needless to say this was another gut punch. I can afford to do it if i wish, however to me that is a needless waste of money. I would rather watch the fireworks from 10 feet away (we did and they were fantastic), then head over to the Boardwalk bakery for some great desserts, that would cost about $30 total.

I have watched with great interest the ever burgeoning "Disney is not a charity" set that often shouts down those that find the current price structure at Disney to be piggish. They are usually folks who either have no problem affording these overpriced premiums, or they are folks that love to lecture others on "prioritizing" their needs in life. All of this of course misses the point. If WDW is not a place where a middle class family (and i mean heartland middle class, not coastal middle class) can afford to take an annual vacation each year. Then IMO, it has lost its soul in some respects. Those of us who wish to be honest, understand that as early as the late 90's and early 2000's this was definitely an option. My wife and i made less then half what we make now, but always took the yearly trip. And when we did, we were able to do some special events that did not cost the weekly grocery budget for a family of six. (think about that for just one minute, watching fireworks eating cannolis, for what it cost to feed an entire family for a week)

This is just my opinion. Save any lazy comments like "if you dont like it dont go".....because if that is your reaction, you clearly are not understanding the spirit with which this opinion is given

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Reminder...

ESPN is a major money maker for Disney, like a huge money maker.

Cable subscriptions are ever falling and eventually (not soon) will die like Kodak and film.

Disney is trying to find ways to make up for the losses of ESPN and raising park prices and cutting costs will help with that.

I assume the investment in BAMTech has a lot to do with that. It's an amazing streaming product.

I know one of the main reasons I still have "traditional cable" (though it is FiOS) is for sports. If I was able to get all of that (not just ESPN but other sports networks as well) via internet based service I could see myself "cutting the cord"

 

[TheMaxRebo]

Those of us who remember back to the post 9/11 days of abandoned hotel construction (art of animation), and the closing of entire swaths of hotels (Dixie landings).....remember that it was the core Disney consumer like myself and many others that kept going, spending our money, buying more points, that made it so that things didn't completely become a disaster......its also folks like myself that are completely dismayed by how that loyalty has been taken advantage of and minimized in a cost cutting, revenue increasing fever that has seen a precipitous decrease in customer service and affordability. Those that wish to be honest, remember the days where an annual trip to Disney was doable. When a family like mine could spend many Christmas days in Disney, without having to pay a "premium" fee for an annual pass. watching the continued attempted monetization of things that are now a benefit of staying on site (charging for early entry, which to me is a trial balloon to see if EMH can be monetized) is depressing.

The most recent example for me was my sister sending me a message on Facebook that we have to sign up for this dessert party for the Star Wars fireworks. It sounded fantastic...The last time I did a dessert party around fireworks was years before and it was $30 per person. When i called to set this up i was shocked to learn that for a family of four to stand in an area 10 feet from an area i can stand for free, and eat desserts, not a meal, desserts....would cost $280....needless to say this was another gut punch. I can afford to do it if i wish, however to me that is a needless waste of money. I would rather watch the fireworks from 10 feet away (we did and they were fantastic), then head over to the Boardwalk bakery for some great desserts, that would cost about $30 total.

I have watched with great interest the ever burgeoning "Disney is not a charity" set that often shouts down those that find the current price structure at Disney to be piggish. They are usually folks who either have no problem affording these overpriced premiums, or they are folks that love to lecture others on "prioritizing" their needs in life. All of this of course misses the point. If WDW is not a place where a middle class family (and i mean heartland middle class, not coastal middle class) can afford to take an annual vacation each year. Then IMO, it has lost its soul in some respects. Those of us who wish to be honest, understand that as early as the late 90's and early 2000's this was definitely an option. My wife and i made less then half what we make now, but always took the yearly trip. And when we did, we were able to do some special events that did not cost the weekly grocery budget for a family of six. (think about that for just one minute, watching fireworks eating cannolis, for what it cost to feed an entire family for a week)

This is just my opinion. Save any lazy comments like "if you dont like it dont go".....because if that is your reaction, you clearly are not understanding the spirit with which this opinion is given

It definitely has changed - though I think that has more to do with the definition of "middle class" than Disney (there are a lot of things that the traditional middle class could do in the past that they are not able to do now) - though maybe more extreme with Disney

I still think Disney is in an odd position in that they do keep raising rates but crowds still come (maybe a tick down this past quarter but they are still way up over years ago)

Side note - the Star Wars Dessert part is definitely not cheap but compared to some other events I actually think the value is there. While it is largely dessert there are some savory items and we just did an early dinner of apps before that, so you can mostly make a meal out of it. Plus it includes an open bar so there is a cost to that. Lastly you do get a Chewie souvenir stein which on it own costs $14 I believe (whether you want it or not is a separate question). Plus, for this show having a good spot matters and we have little kids so staking out a spot for ~1 hour isn't really an option

 

[SorcererHeidi]

Those of us who remember back to the post 9/11 days of abandoned hotel construction (art of animation), and the closing of entire swaths of hotels (Dixie landings).....remember that it was the core Disney consumer like myself and many others that kept going, spending our money, buying more points, that made it so that things didn't completely become a disaster......its also folks like myself that are completely dismayed by how that loyalty has been taken advantage of and minimized in a cost cutting, revenue increasing fever that has seen a precipitous decrease in customer service and affordability. Those that wish to be honest, remember the days where an annual trip to Disney was doable. When a family like mine could spend many Christmas days in Disney, without having to pay a "premium" fee for an annual pass. watching the continued attempted monetization of things that are now a benefit of staying on site (charging for early entry, which to me is a trial balloon to see if EMH can be monetized) is depressing.

The most recent example for me was my sister sending me a message on Facebook that we have to sign up for this dessert party for the Star Wars fireworks. It sounded fantastic...The last time I did a dessert party around fireworks was years before and it was $30 per person. When i called to set this up i was shocked to learn that for a family of four to stand in an area 10 feet from an area i can stand for free, and eat desserts, not a meal, desserts....would cost $280....needless to say this was another gut punch. I can afford to do it if i wish, however to me that is a needless waste of money. I would rather watch the fireworks from 10 feet away (we did and they were fantastic), then head over to the Boardwalk bakery for some great desserts, that would cost about $30 total.

I have watched with great interest the ever burgeoning "Disney is not a charity" set that often shouts down those that find the current price structure at Disney to be piggish. They are usually folks who either have no problem affording these overpriced premiums, or they are folks that love to lecture others on "prioritizing" their needs in life. All of this of course misses the point. If WDW is not a place where a middle class family (and i mean heartland middle class, not coastal middle class) can afford to take an annual vacation each year. Then IMO, it has lost its soul in some respects. Those of us who wish to be honest, understand that as early as the late 90's and early 2000's this was definitely an option. My wife and i made less then half what we make now, but always took the yearly trip. And when we did, we were able to do some special events that did not cost the weekly grocery budget for a family of six. (think about that for just one minute, watching fireworks eating cannolis, for what it cost to feed an entire family for a week)

This is just my opinion. Save any lazy comments like "if you dont like it dont go".....because if that is your reaction, you clearly are not understanding the spirit with which this opinion is given

Sadly agree, and also sadly admit most of what you're saying is mostly what has kept me from going for over 4 years, when I used to go every year, sometimes twice, but definitely every other year. Sad is what it makes me.

 

[Lisann]

My head hurts. Occupancy up, occupancy down, attendance down, attendance up, income up, income down....weeee!!!

 

[cxcelica]

I still think Disney is in an odd position in that they do keep raising rates but crowds still come (maybe a tick down this past quarter but they are still way up over years ago)

Side note - the Star Wars Dessert part is definitely not cheap but compared to some other events I actually think the value is there. While it is largely dessert there are some savory items and we just did an early dinner of apps before that, so you can mostly make a meal out of it. Plus it includes an open bar so there is a cost to that. Lastly you do get a Chewie souvenir stein which on it own costs $14 I believe (whether you want it or not is a separate question). Plus, for this show having a good spot matters and we have little kids so staking out a spot for ~1 hour isn't really an option

This is a fair point about the position disney is in. Judging by the forums the last few years, I would think the number one complaint of park visitors (other than its too hot) is that it is too crowded. So Disney has been in a position where they have a product in huge demand and the number one complaint is that there are too many other people consuming their product. Well if you raise prices, first you make more money and second,maybe you price some people out and in a circuitous way you may actually please certain fans by lowering the crowds, oh and by the way did we mention make more money!! Its literally what they did with the AP passes in Disneyland, they tried to price people out of owning them to reduce the number purchased...anyway

Times have changed and it's easy to wax nostaglic about the good old days, but believe me the reason Disney seemed more affordable in the 90's had nothing to do with Michael Eisner having this deep belief that Disney needs to be affordable for everyone.

 

[gmboy95]

This is a fair point about the position disney is in. Judging by the forums the last few years, I would think the number one complaint of park visitors (other than its too hot) is that it is too crowded. So Disney has been in a position where they have a product in huge demand and the number one complaint is that there are too many other people consuming their product. Well if you raise prices, first you make more money and second,maybe you price some people out and in a circuitous way you may actually please certain fans by lowering the crowds, oh and by the way did we mention make more money!! Its literally what they did with the AP passes in Disneyland, they tried to price people out of owning them to reduce the number purchased...anyway

Times have changed and it's easy to wax nostaglic about the good old days, but believe me the reason Disney seemed more affordable in the 90's had nothing to do with Michael Eisner having this deep belief that Disney needs to be affordable for everyone.

I get this....but there is a middle ground between givinf stuff away for free and a moderate disney vacation costing $7,000 as well