There is a bit of religion in this but it is really part of the ?

[SaraJayne]

Geez. My brother was married to a JW for many years. She had 2 sons, they didn't celebrate holidays. They would have a 'reward' party w/gifts sometime close to their b'day. We were close friends, just not same religion. My daughter in law is JW. She and my son have no children thank God. My daughters sister in law is JW. I love all these women, they are fun to be around. I was told they do not celebrate b'days as that every b'day celebrated in the bible involved someone getting killed......think John the Baptist.......they don't celebrate Thanksgiving because they think we should give thanks 365 days a year. Again this is what I was told by them. They also do not believe in the Trinity. That being said, the girl lives in her parents home and should wait til she is legally able to take care of herself to make her own religious decisions.

Believing in the Trinity is the basis of Christianity.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

For all of you that seem to think the parent's beliefs don't matter, let's slip another religion in here. What if you knew a kid's family kept kosher? And what if that kid wanted to try ham or shrimp? Would you say, "here have some and if your parents don't like it, too bad?"

While the girl is 16, she still lives at home and would be the one to deal with the ramifications of what would happen if the parents found out. I don't think any single person has the right to go against the parents' wishes or insert their parenting choices into another family.

Excellent example. Or someone who gave up chocolate for Lent, and you allowed them some. Or not eating meat on Friday. Facing the sunrise in prayer, or sunset....

We can go on with many examples of practicing faiths.

Judypink- I don't know you personally and I don't know your agenda here- but you are WRONG. Not that it matters for the aske of this discussion. As long as this thread is veering off into lockdown-land I might as well make this point, Judypink you are incorrect.
I also agree with the thought of a pp- what if it were a 'kosher' issue? Or what if it were an issue of an Amish kid wanting to wear modern blue jeans? Or a strict catholic kid who wants to skip weekly mass,or a Hindu kid who wants to eat a burger?
At what point is it ok for someone to interfere with another family,when there isn't any 'abuse' taking place, but obviously a strong difference of opinion,mixed in with plenty of teenage drama?

I would let the 16 year old make his or her own decisions with respect to adherence to their faith. The Jewish kid is an adult in the faith at that time. The Catholic who gave up something for Lent? Also an adult in the faith. The Amish kid? He's on rummspringa and is supposed to be exploring whether he or she wants to join the faith.

I would talk to the girl about whether one cupcake was worth the grief she might get from her parents and let her decide.

 

[hsmamato2]

Wonder if it's the type of party...ie, a party as a fun get together with friends vs. a celebration of a holiday/birthday/etc. that is muddying the waters for some of this.

For the record- there is no big secret- JW's don't celebrate occasions that originate with a pagan origin- celebrations and parties are completely up to each individual- and it sounds like *maybe* the family OP refers to just doesn't do anything at all?
for instance- celebrate a birthday= pagan origin, JW's choose not to do this-
have a party with a bunch of kids 'just because' = no problem.
no secrets,no different 'tiers'-
I don't know the true situation from OP's story,but it sounds like the back story is about much more than a cupcake or not.

 

[hsmamato2]

.
Exactly what I was going to say. If the child was Orthodox Jewish, would you give her pork & shellfish? If you consider that disrespecting the parents' customs & beliefs, then it would be the same in this case.

exactly what I was trying to say,but you said it more clearly.

 

[beck0321]

LOL the ad at the top of the page is for Party Time "Great Birthdays Start Here!"

 

[castmember19]

Nope. I wouldn't do it. I say this because I was best friends with a JW girl in high school. We knew she didn't like it and she wanted to celebrate holidays so we gave her Valentines cupcakes and Christmas gifts, etc. When her parents found out these things were happening, they decided public school was a bad influence and took her out immediately. She stopped showing up, we didn't even hear from her for years.

As a previous poster said, wait until she's 18.

 

[calypso726]

It's not the fact that it's a party, or for a specific reason, but rather the fact that birthdays and most other holidays have traditions (blowing out birthday candles, offering the birthday child a gift, etc) that are of Pagan origin.

Super Bowl party? Absolutely. Bridal shower? Absolutely. Summer BBQ and invite a bunch of people over for the fun of it? Absolutely.

The difference is that these types of gatherings do not have traditions or roots in non-Christian religions.

I appreciate the learning something new as well. However, the custom of bridal showers grew from the outdated custom of the dowry. The dowry custom was practiced by the ancient Romans and as early as the 5th century BC. Clearly, having pagan roots.

If I understand correctly, birthdays aren't celebrated as they honor the individual to excess. Pagan roots of bridal showers aside, does not having a bridal shower honor the bride to excess? Maybe I'm seeing it wrong or missing something but it my mind having a bridal shower is to honor the bride. Is it ok because ideally the bridal shower only happens once and not every year like a birthday? If this thread gets shut down please PM me as I truly would like to understand. Thank you

 

[princessmom29]

Jehovah's Witnesses do not pick and choose what has Pagan origins, or not. History (and research/reference materials such as encyclopedias {and I don't mean things published by JWs}) does. We are not uninformed, or told not to research, or uneducated on the bible, or uneducated as to why Jehovah's Witnesses believe as we do. In fact, it's quite the opposite. My DSs could tell someone, at a young age, *why* they don't do certain things, but at their same age, I couldn't tell you *why* I did do those same things. If someone would've asked me as a child why I celebrate my birthday, for example, I probably would've said "I don't know, my parents give me presents because it was the day I was born". But no facts or information as to why it became tradition in the first place.



I've known Jehovah's Witnesses for 40 years, many different congregations in different states, and while some families do tend to socialize mainly with people/children within their congregation, most don't choose that.



I'm certainly not going to argue your experiences, and I respect the opinion that you have formed from those experiences. But kids being raised as Jehovah's Witnesses are anything but insulated from the world and all of it's diversity and issues. Again, this I know for a fact. Our literature continually contains articles pertaining to current world news and events. Our children learn right beside us, they learn the same things that we do, there are no "children's bible classes" or anything like that. My children were introduced to world events, biology, history, etc at a much higher level and a much younger age, than I was, due to the material that we studied together. I understand what you're saying when you "insular" because to an observer it probably appears that way, but it really isn't the case.

I would love To know why baby and bridal showers are ok, but birthdays, christmas, ect are not, given that the origins of all of them are pagan. What is it that makes birthdays and Christmas different?

In am not saying Jehovahs ont teach their kds THEIR ideas about world events, biology or anything else, but that, in my experience, they are very limited in thie exposure to others views on those subjects. That has been my experience with those I have taught. They were often pulled rom my classroom when the lesson contradicted their belief system. None were allowe to take our Greek Mythology course at all.

 

[princessmom29]

Nope. I wouldn't do it. I say this because I was best friends with a JW girl in high school. We knew she didn't like it and she wanted to celebrate holidays so we gave her Valentines cupcakes and Christmas gifts, etc. When her parents found out these things were happening, they decided public school was a bad influence and took her out immediately. She stopped showing up, we didn't even hear from her for years.

As a previous poster said, wait until she's 18.

I had a Jehovah high schooler ask me for information on evolution. That child didn't come back to school the next year.

I also made the mistake of trying to advocate for a college education for a Jehovah child. His parents wre less than receptive and felt that higher eduction was a corruptive influence.

 

[mdsoccermom]

I would let the 16 year old make his or her own decisions with respect to adherence to their faith. The Jewish kid is an adult in the faith at that time. The Catholic who gave up something for Lent? Also an adult in the faith. The Amish kid? He's on rummspringa and is supposed to be exploring whether he or she wants to join the faith.

I would talk to the girl about whether one cupcake was worth the grief she might get from her parents and let her decide.

My daughter will have her bat mitzvah in 2 months. While Judaism will consider her an adult able to take on such religious responsibilities, she is still my child living under my rules. I would be exceptionally pissed if someone took it upon themselves to go against our teachings because they disagreed with them.

 

[Aliceacc]

Why not gently suggest that the girl ask her parents if she can have a party over the next vacation? NOT birthday or Valentines or any other reason, simply to celebrate the friendshp of her friends.

I'm not JW, but as I understand it, they're not anti-party, it's just the celebration of holidays they have an issue with. So see if she can have the big party, just without it being about her birthday.


But, above all, don't go against the parent's wishes. This girs's parents are doing their best to bring up their daughter in the way they believe they should. Parenting is hard enough without other parents undermining what you're trying to do.

 

[AmandaNied]

Growing up I had a very close JW friend. Our families were good friend and we often spent the night at each others houses and played for hours together. I always wished she could come over for my birthday parties and Christmas celebrations...but I understood she couldn't. My mom decided to have a "tea party" and I invited all of my friend (including my JW friend) and we had a great time playing, eating and enjoying cake and ice cream. It was not a birthday and no presents were exchanged, but I was so happy that she got to experience this with me. Maybe you could do something like this for your daughter and her friends? have a get-together, but not make it a "birthday". It's hard enough to be a teen, but to not be "normal" in other kids eyes is even more difficult. This get together may help to dispel some of those feelings

 

[ebtbmom]

As a former JW, my heart breaks for this 16 year old girl. The best thing she can do is excape this cult the minute she turns 18. It took me until I turned 24 and I regret that I did not do it sooner.

So oppressive and so controlling. No human should have to endure the childhood that I did. I missed out on so much and will never forgive my parents for what they did to me by forcing me to be a JW.

Hug that child. Hug her tight.

But, DON'T give her gifts or throw a party. I am crying as I type that, because she deserves to be happy and celebrate milestones and holidays. But the grief that she and you will receive from her brainwashed parents will be horrible. Tell her when she turns into an adult, you will give her whatever she wants.

Once she turns 18, throw her a MASSIVE celebration if she wants it. Hopefully, she will fly free from The Cult

I totally agree with this. I am not a JW but I married into it! DH has been out now for several years, but most people do not understand how seriously the JWs take the no holidays thing. It would hugely offensive to them to go against their wishes on this, and honestly, disrespectful.

It is not correct to assume either that once she turns 18 she can magically declare that she's not into the faith anymore. If she chose to be baptized (as DH did when he was 15) then she will be disfellowshipped from the organization and her family will shun her (as DH's family now does to him).

Think about it this way, if these people take their religion so seriously that they would deny their child a life saving blood transfusion, how do you think they'd feel about a covert birthday party?

 

[ebtbmom]

this has not been my experience. I went to school with many JW's and have taught many over the years. The vast majority were not allowed to particiapte in after school activites or to spend time outside of school with those not of thier faith. The majority of JW children in our local congregations are homeschooled, and the whole community is very insular. They don't agree with the idea that having friends outside your own religion is acceptable, at least in all the congregations I am familiar with in the area.

I agree with this point, DH was never allowed to participate on team sports at school because he would be fellowshipping with "worldy people". He had 1 friend in the neighborhood that was non JW, and only I think because his parents knew him really well. ALL of his other friends were JW, needless to say the parents weren't thrilled when he brought an atheist home to meet them. He was never a very good JW.

 

[Talking Hands]

Why would you pray for them daily?

Because I pray for all of my friends, family and students daily

 

[portocall]

It is my personal belief that there are infinate ways to raise a child to grow into a productive, law-abiding, caring citizen so I respect a parents right to raise their children in however they see fit (providing no abuse). I wouldn't go against the parents in this case. Soon enough she will be able to legally make those decisions but until then, her parents are trusting you to respect their wishes. Honestly you would hope they would do the same for you.

In my case, I don't agree with censoring the books my children read. There is no book that is off limits to them. I realize this is controversial and many people don't agree with this and that is okay. We have had a lot of spirited conversations over the years that have in my opinion benefited us as a family. My personal belief is that a child will only take in what they are ready for and will let text that they aren't fly over their head. That said, if your child is coming to my house and I know you prefer them not to read certain titles or topics, I will respect you and not allow your child to have the books in which you are opposed, even though I disagree. At the same time, when my kids come to your house please don't let them watch just anything on TV. It is the give and take of friendship.

While cupcakes and a party to celebrate an occasion that to you is a no-brainer and not a big deal, it is a big deal to her parents. (Unless you call them and discuss and they give permission) It would be akin to them giving your child something that you would be against (i don't know, skinny jeans, condoms, conversion to their religion). I know she is turning 16 and so close to being an adult but she isn't there yet. Just my opinion.

 

[nuttylawprofessor]

My daughter will have her bat mitzvah in 2 months. While Judaism will consider her an adult able to take on such religious responsibilities, she is still my child living under my rules. I would be exceptionally pissed if someone took it upon themselves to go against our teachings because they disagreed with them.

Be pissed at your kid. Don't be pissed at my kid for sharing his ham sandwich.

At 16, your kid is responsible for his or her own behavior. I'm not responsible for your 16 year old's behavior.

This is an issue between the kids. It's not like OP is offering the young woman a cupcake on OP's own initiative. Young woman has asked another young woman for a cupcake. Let the young women figure this one out.

 

[Luv2Scrap]

As a former JW, my heart breaks for this 16 year old girl. The best thing she can do is excape this cult the minute she turns 18. It took me until I turned 24 and I regret that I did not do it sooner.

So oppressive and so controlling. No human should have to endure the childhood that I did. I missed out on so much and will never forgive my parents for what they did to me by forcing me to be a JW.

Hug that child. Hug her tight.

But, DON'T give her gifts or throw a party. I am crying as I type that, because she deserves to be happy and celebrate milestones and holidays. But the grief that she and you will receive from her brainwashed parents will be horrible. Tell her when she turns into an adult, you will give her whatever she wants.

Once she turns 18, throw her a MASSIVE celebration if she wants it. Hopefully, she will fly free from The Cult

I have been there too, except I rebelled and ran away when I was 15. Long story there, but I am now happy to be out and leading my own life without the heavy feelings of guilt from the brainwashing. Those feelings of guilt followed me well into my adult life but I now realize that I truly don't believe in what they teach, and coming to that realization finally set me free.

She *may* be telling the truth as to her own childhood experiences, but that is absolutely NOT representative of any Jehovah's Witnesses that I have known for the last 40 years.

She is no "expert" on the religion itself. But since I don't know this person (who just happened to join a Disney message board yesterday and who has yet to post a thing about Disney), I do not give much creedence to what they have to say on this thread.

The fact that your experience was not the same as hers is not a legitimate reason to suggest that she *may* not be telling the truth or that what she has to say should not be given much creedence. I lived a life that sounds very similar to hers, so I know with 100% certainty that everything she says is probably true. I believe you also said you became a JW as an adult, correct? If so, then you didn't grow up in the religion as a child. You don't know the feeling of having *all* of your choices taken away from you and being told it's for your own good.

Contrary to what you said earlier, there most definitely *are* different "levels" of dedication and extremist behavior within the JW religion. My dad was an elder in our congregation, and you are fooling yourself if you think an elder's family isn't held to a higher standard.

Many things are left for individuals to decide - let their conscience be their guide. Some people will do things that others in the congregation would not ever do, including associating with others outside the congregation and allowing their children to celebrate holidays - especially if they have a non-witness parent (try having one unbelieving parent that despises everything about the religion and one elder parent that despises everything outside the religion. Now imagine that they both want you to side with them and do only what they want you to do, and you will know what a hard childhood is).

There was also abuse in the name of religion - at least in my house. You know the scripture, "spare the rod and spoil the child" - well my parents, especially my step-mom, took this seriously and literally, and did NOT spare the rod.

I totally agree with this. I am not a JW but I married into it! DH has been out now for several years, but most people do not understand how seriously the JWs take the no holidays thing. It would hugely offensive to them to go against their wishes on this, and honestly, disrespectful.

It is not correct to assume either that once she turns 18 she can magically declare that she's not into the faith anymore. If she chose to be baptized (as DH did when he was 15) then she will be disfellowshipped from the organization and her family will shun her (as DH's family now does to him).

Think about it this way, if these people take their religion so seriously that they would deny their child a life saving blood transfusion, how do you think they'd feel about a covert birthday party?

Sadly, this is what happened to my brother. Out of the three children, one was baptized. All three of us left the religion as teen-agers or young adults, and my parents will now only talk to two of us and shun the third (not that they will talk to us a whole lot, because even though we are not disfellowshipped, we are still considered "bad association" - yes, they do like to keep a close-knit group!). It is so heartbreaking to see my family torn apart in the name of religion. It definitely is always there in my mind and definitely has a negative effect on my relationship with my dad and step-mother.

However, in this case, it seems she has been struggling against this religion for quite some time, so my thoughts are that it's pretty unlikely that she's baptized.

 

[CurlyJo224]

Why not gently suggest that the girl ask her parents if she can have a party over the next vacation? NOT birthday or Valentines or any other reason, simply to celebrate the friendshp of her friends.

I'm not JW, but as I understand it, they're not anti-party, it's just the celebration of holidays they have an issue with. So see if she can have the big party, just without it being about her birthday.


But, above all, don't go against the parent's wishes. This girs's parents are doing their best to bring up their daughter in the way they believe they should. Parenting is hard enough without other parents undermining what you're trying to do.

This sounds like it would be the best compromise, IMO.

As a few other posters have said, parties are allowed, just not to celebrate a holiday. So, have a party to celebrate friendship with all the girls (if she's allowed to socialize with your daughter's other friends), and maybe when she's 18 and possibly out from under parents' influence, have a birthday party.

 

[ElizabethB]

If she chose to be baptized (as DH did when he was 15) then she will be disfellowshipped from the organization and her family will shun her (as DH's family now does to him).

All three of us left the religion as teen-agers or young adults, and my parents will now only talk to two of us and shun the third (not that they will talk to us a whole lot, because even though we are not disfellowshipped, we are still considered "bad association" - yes, they do like to keep a close-knit group!).

Nice . . .