Starting down the college path for my kids, clueless!

[TLuvsD]

Hmm...lots going on---I'm sorry you are having to deal with all this!

I would think a private school gc would be doing a better job than this, but like a pp said they want to brag about where their students attend college, and they aren't paying the application fees. If you want to continue to be involved, call the gc and set an appointment for a conference call. Have all stats at your finger tips. plan the conversation: Mrs GC, I notice UC Berkley's freshman class had mid range SAT scores of XXXXXXX and over 50% of the accepted students had GPAs of YYY? Can you explain why StepD has a good chance at admission for that school with scores of ZZZZZ? Go through each school. Ask for recommendations of additional journalism schools that D might like. (here is a link to the admission information for the UC schools: http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/campuses/index.html)

I'd likely just send a check for half the fees and be done with it. Okay, StepD you want to go for it, well we wish you the best. When she's not admitted, she try the local community college. The community colleges can plan a transfer program to the UC of her dreams, provided she makes the grades.

It's really, really important to have the financial conversation. Soon. Like maybe last week. Seriousy, you need to figure out what you are going to contribute so she knows what she and mom need to contribute. It's not reasonable to have no idea how much money is avaliable to pay the tuition. Is she just expecting you and her mom to split the bills?
And have the conversation with your son, too. He needs to know now what he can expect when he is applying to colleges.

Seriously, everyone should talk to their high school students about funds for college. Each family makes it's own decisions about how much they can/will pay, but it's critical that the student has that information.

 

[allison443]

It's really, really important to have the financial conversation. Soon. Like maybe last week. Seriousy, you need to figure out what you are going to contribute so she knows what she and mom need to contribute. It's not reasonable to have no idea how much money is avaliable to pay the tuition. Is she just expecting you and her mom to split the bills?
And have the conversation with your son, too. He needs to know now what he can expect when he is applying to colleges.

Seriously, everyone should talk to their high school students about funds for college. Each family makes it's own decisions about how much they can/will pay, but it's critical that the student has that information.

OP this is SO important. Your stepdaughter has unrealistic choices, but what happens if she does get into one of them? Or she does end up adding some safety schools and gets accepted to those? What is the financial contribution from your dh going to be like? Is the amount of his contribution going to be the same no matter what school she goes to, can he contribute more if the school is a private as opposed to a public, is she expected to contribute through loans, workng, etc.?
It is in everyone's best interest to have these conversations now, no matter how uncomfortable they may be. Follow it up with an email so there's no misunderstanding. To say you are going to send a check for $250 and wash your hands of the application process is fine, but you all need to be prepared for what's going to result if she is accepted somewhere. If your main objections so far have been that the schools are academically unrealistic, she may not be processing the idea that some are not financially realistic, kwim?


Also, no disrespect to journalism majors, but a kid who thinks they want to work on a newspaper in four years (like she said) needs to take a look at what is going on in the world of newspaper publishing.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

OP this is SO important. Your stepdaughter has unrealistic choices, but what happens if she does get into one of them? Or she does end up adding some safety schools and gets accepted to those? What is the financial contribution from your dh going to be like? Is the amount of his contribution going to be the same no matter what school she goes to, can he contribute more if the school is a private as opposed to a public, is she expected to contribute through loans, workng, etc.?
It is in everyone's best interest to have these conversations now, no matter how uncomfortable they may be. Follow it up with an email so there's no misunderstanding. To say you are going to send a check for $250 and wash your hands of the application process is fine, but you all need to be prepared for what's going to result if she is accepted somewhere. If your main objections so far have been that the schools are academically unrealistic, she may not be processing the idea that some are not financially realistic, kwim?


Also, no disrespect to journalism majors, but a kid who thinks they want to work on a newspaper in four years (like she said) needs to take a look at what is going on in the world of newspaper publishing.

Agree with everything you posted.

With our dd's we told them the financial contribution we are able to make and they have to come up with the difference through loans, scholarships, job, etc.

(Her freshman roommate got a job as a dorm PA to get free room and board this yr)

My dd was SOOO mad she could not go to UT-Austin however we cannot afford out of state tuition, period.

She did not put in the effort and so she ended up at a school she did not want to go to. She loved it near the end however she did change schools this year to a cheaper school and is doing much better.

She is SOOO stubborn to "get it" Always has been that way.

She did make good grades and had some great opportunities, so none of her experiences were wasted. She needed them to "see" her path.

Now her sister in 8th grade is the opposite.

My kids are night and day.

 

[WheresFigment?]

Another thought:

check in on the housing situations at ALL the schools you're looking at. Many schools in large cities only offer housing to freshmen or sophomores. So then you end up on the hook for paying rent off campus-- and some of the places she's looking are located in EXTREMELY high rent areas.

It's a total cost over four years, not just the cost for the first year, not just room and board, but the total cost of living in that city for four or maybe even five years.

 

[SondraC]

I'd send them $250-$300 for apps, do my research on any viable/late-acceptance Pitt (and Pitt satellite) options and be done with it for a while. It is obvious that there are underlying issues between all the parties involved, between the stepd & her mother, between the stepd & her father, from the Ex towards his 'new' family(you & your son) etc., etc. It doesn't matter what you & your husband say or do, OP, the girl & her mother will not listen.

So give up...
send them the money...
without telling them do your research about local (to them and to you) late-acceptance community colleges/satellite campuses and if they ask say you did it for your HS junior..
And when step is crying that she got rejected by all her schools, you'll have the information that might help.

All the angst and tension and hysterical teenage screaming over the phone will be a thing of the past...the united team of mother & daughter will not listen. Any battlefield commander knows when to retreat and regroup, that's what you have to do now.

agnes!

I agree! We need to step back on this. It has been waaayy too stressful this past week.
We are definitely going to check out options on our own.

Or 3) Those are the schools in interesting locations. San Francisco? Cool!

So, am I reading this correctly - when you asked how she was planning to pay for college, neither she nor her mother actually had an answer? That's a baaaad sign.

I used the phrase "designer colleges" to her mom, that she was picking based on name and nothing more. Also, they had no answers on the financial aspect.
I said to my dh I thought at first your ex was just being useless, I now realize she is worse, she is encouraging all of this!!

I agree. The ex and DD need to be told now what monies will be provided for college. Period. So if me some random miracle the DD got into one of these school that are are super expensive there won't be any surprises when it comes time to pay the tuition.

Good point!

Yeah, it's important to realize that colleges aren't divided into THE ONE PERFECT SCHOOL FOR ME and a whole bunch of junk. Your student could be successful and happy at any number of schools.My post did take the idea to an extreme -- I agree with you that a more moderate position is better. But overall, not ranking and "softening" the idea that you might be average instead of outstanding . . . is doing the kids an injustice.Guidance counselors are put between a rock and a hard place in situations like this. If they recommend that you stick to realistic options where your student is a strong candidate, they're squealching dreams and holding back students -- why not let them try for those tougher schools? And if they tell them to try, and then the students fail . . . why didn't they give better advice and steer the students towards the appropriate schools?

Why knows why the valeditorian didn't get into UCLA? Perhaps he was one of those students who had all the grades, but had no extra-curriculars whatsoever. Or maybe he was late with his applications. Or maybe he did something purposefully to "throw" his application. I had a friend who did that in high school: Her parents had both gone to Snooty U, and they desperately wanted her to go there -- she wanted another school. She was a great student and almost certainly would've been admitted. So she wrote out one application/set of essays, which her parents saw and approved . . . and then she wrote out another set - a set with mistakes and just enough red flags that her intention wasn't obvious. She wasn't admitted, and she ended up at the school where she'd wanted to go.

Guidance counselors. They can't win.Well, in my experience, the Ex and DD -- not the OP -- are in the majority of college-decision makers. Most people seem to pick a couple places that sound good, and apply. That also explains why people end up at colleges that're poorly suited to their needs and abilities.A future journalist with a low writing score . . . this is a red flag. In addition to your checkbook having some say-so in where she goes, the school admissions office also has a great deal of decision-making power. She doesn't grasp these things.

And how could she? She's done pretty well in school, and she's got the idea that college is just 13th grade. She doesn't "get" that it's a whole lot more and that she won't necessarily be the same "always gets As and Bs student" in college -- EVERYONE in those colleges was an excellent high school student. Having taught seniors for 19 years, I agree with every word. Admissions often do appear unfair because they pay attention to details that you and I would ignore. For example, our flagship university has quotas from the various parts of the state -- so it's actually easier for a kid from a rural mountain town to be admitted (even with lower SATs and GPAs) than it is for a kid from one of our largest cities. And that's just one example. Admissions to competative schools ARE rather like the lottery -- someone's going to win, and someone's going to lose.

And when it comes to these uber-competative schools, I stick to my original assertion: It's not wise to accept admission to one of those schools where you barely-barely-barely made it in. Doing so means that you'll always be at the bottom of your class. You'll always be just scraping by. It's better to go where you'll be in the middle of the pack.While this is far from a perfect solution, it may be what is realistic for this situation. College is a very important decision, but it cannot be more important than your relationship with your daughter.

I'd send the check along with a note that does two things: 1) reassures her that you love her, are sure she's going to make good choices, and you're supportive of her . . . and 2) hits the highlights of what makes a school realistic.

I LOVE that line that she thinks college is just 13th grade!! I think that happens a lot!

In a situation like this, I would expect the guidance counselor to say "That's great that you're interested in such tough schools. I'm glad you're willing to do what it takes to succeed in a school like that. However, you need to realize that this particular school gets 156 applications for every opening, so there will be a lot of applicants who don't get it. I encourage you to select a couple of safety schools as well, because you never know what will happen. State U and University of X are good schools that offer the major you're interested in - have you looked at them?"

YES!!

Hmm...lots going on---I'm sorry you are having to deal with all this!

I would think a private school gc would be doing a better job than this, but like a pp said they want to brag about where their students attend college, and they aren't paying the application fees. If you want to continue to be involved, call the gc and set an appointment for a conference call. Have all stats at your finger tips. plan the conversation: Mrs GC, I notice UC Berkley's freshman class had mid range SAT scores of XXXXXXX and over 50% of the accepted students had GPAs of YYY? Can you explain why StepD has a good chance at admission for that school with scores of ZZZZZ? Go through each school. Ask for recommendations of additional journalism schools that D might like. (here is a link to the admission information for the UC schools: http://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/admissions/campuses/index.html)

I'd likely just send a check for half the fees and be done with it. Okay, StepD you want to go for it, well we wish you the best. When she's not admitted, she try the local community college. The community colleges can plan a transfer program to the UC of her dreams, provided she makes the grades.

It's really, really important to have the financial conversation. Soon. Like maybe last week. Seriousy, you need to figure out what you are going to contribute so she knows what she and mom need to contribute. It's not reasonable to have no idea how much money is avaliable to pay the tuition. Is she just expecting you and her mom to split the bills?
And have the conversation with your son, too. He needs to know now what he can expect when he is applying to colleges.

Seriously, everyone should talk to their high school students about funds for college. Each family makes it's own decisions about how much they can/will pay, but it's critical that the student has that information.

I was hoping the ex answer my concerns on all of this, but she acted like a dear in the headlights.

OP this is SO important. Your stepdaughter has unrealistic choices, but what happens if she does get into one of them? Or she does end up adding some safety schools and gets accepted to those? What is the financial contribution from your dh going to be like? Is the amount of his contribution going to be the same no matter what school she goes to, can he contribute more if the school is a private as opposed to a public, is she expected to contribute through loans, workng, etc.?
It is in everyone's best interest to have these conversations now, no matter how uncomfortable they may be. Follow it up with an email so there's no misunderstanding. To say you are going to send a check for $250 and wash your hands of the application process is fine, but you all need to be prepared for what's going to result if she is accepted somewhere. If your main objections so far have been that the schools are academically unrealistic, she may not be processing the idea that some are not financially realistic, kwim?


Also, no disrespect to journalism majors, but a kid who thinks they want to work on a newspaper in four years (like she said) needs to take a look at what is going on in the world of newspaper publishing.

I agree the print world is declining.

Another thought:

check in on the housing situations at ALL the schools you're looking at. Many schools in large cities only offer housing to freshmen or sophomores. So then you end up on the hook for paying rent off campus-- and some of the places she's looking are located in EXTREMELY high rent areas.

It's a total cost over four years, not just the cost for the first year, not just room and board, but the total cost of living in that city for four or maybe even five years.

This is a very good point! I really thought all of the adults would kinda be on the same page about all of this. My sdd is getting advice from her gc & her mom, that contradicts what to us common sense is, and we are coming out the meanies. Oh well.

 

[SC Minnie]

My sdd is getting advice from her gc & her mom, that contradicts what to us common sense is, and we are coming out the meanies. Oh well.

Some people won't listen to common sense and have to find things out the hard way. Looks like you need to be prepared to let that happen.

You can talk until you are blue in the face and she won't listen. It may actually threaten your and her father's relationship with her. At some point you have to lay out the common sense and what you will and will not do then step back. When things fall apart try not to say 'I told you so'.

 

[tlbwriter]

My sdd is getting advice from her gc & her mom, that contradicts what to us common sense is, and we are coming out the meanies. Oh well.

Well, if you're really concerned about being the meanies, probably the best thing to do is send her a check for any and all applications, tell her how much you are willing and able to contribute to her education (set some strict parameters - is it going to a be a percentage or a dollar amount? does it end at undergrad? what if it takes her 8 years to get a degree?), and then step back and let her and her mom handle it. It doesn't sound like you're going to be able to talk some sense into any of them, so you may as well drop the rope and let them do what they want - and suffer the consequences.

 

[TLuvsD]

I'd suggest that the financial support be tied to ongoing progress towards a degree and appropriate grades. You don't want to pay for college forever, and if she is not earning reasonable grades there needs to be a plan in place.

Something like, we will pay x amount for 8 or 10 semesters provided there is a gpa of y. Give her some room to adjust to college, but get the information out there, and I love the idea of following up with an email. You can always revise the plan later, if really necessary, but it gives everyone a heads up on expectations.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Plus how much do you expect your kid to contribute? My dd is taking out loans and is expected to provide her "spending money".

She is looking for a job now however it is proving difficult since they want her to work the holidays and she is living in the dorms.

There is a good chance that she will move out into an apartment for the summer so she can work a reg. part time job and finish school earlier.

OP, I feel for you. There are so many factors with kids and college.

 

[Cooky]

.

 

[punkin]

It is particularly hard in these divorce situations because so many other things come into play. Just a slightly OT story:

My DD has a good friend. She and her stepmother did a lot of research for college. They were careful to apply to schools with good financial/merit aid where the child would be happy. Both the father (too busy) and the mother (too drunk) abdicated all responsibility to the stepmother and girl, who did everything. The girl got into a wonderful program with scholarship money, at which point the mother said she wasn't going to pay for college at all (surprise!) and the father said "if ex isn't paying, neither am I", and left the poor girl with almost no options.

In the end the stepmother (with fights and screaming and threatening divorce) finally got the father to agree to pay something and the girl went to a not so good program (it was her safety) with even better merit aid. She is happy at that school, but she only had that option because she had applied intelligently in the first place.

 

[MrsPete]

Another thought:

check in on the housing situations at ALL the schools you're looking at. Many schools in large cities only offer housing to freshmen or sophomores. So then you end up on the hook for paying rent off campus-- and some of the places she's looking are located in EXTREMELY high rent areas.

It's a total cost over four years, not just the cost for the first year, not just room and board, but the total cost of living in that city for four or maybe even five years.

Good point. Here's a similar one: If your student is awarded a scholarship that's so large it's a "make or break" thing for a certain school . . . look into whether it's going to be renewable for the next three years, and look into whether it's LIKELY to be renewed for the next three years.

Here's what I'm getting at: I've known a couple students who were given very nice scholarships for their freshman year, but they were not renewable after that (this tends to be a small private school thing). It's kind of like a "teaser scholarship". The student chooses this school because of the great price . . . but then they're faced with full-priced tuition for the next three years. This puts them in a difficult position: Pay more (perhaps taking out loans) or transfer? Personally, I'd rather my child START at the lower-priced school rather than transfer.

I agree the print world is declining.

An excellent point. What is it that attracts her to the world of journalism? What other careers -- careers that may be in greater demand -- incorporate these same factors?

If she loves researching and digging up details, being a paralegal would use those same skills -- and would include writing. Tech writers are in moderate demand. Website designers incorporates writing and technology. Test writing is a lucrative field, though not many people will get jobs doing that.

Decide what you are willing to contribute to her college education, make it clear to her and her mother and then let that be the end of it.

In our house, we're big on making our expectations very clear. This seems self-evident, but it's going to be a condition for our daughters when they start college: We're on the semester-by-semester plan. I will gladly, happily pay for your first semester of college . . . but I expect to see that you're attending school full-time and passing classes. As long as I see you're moving towards graduation, I'll gladly, happily pay for the second semester. But IF I see that you're not attending class, failing things here and there . . . then we're going to make changes. I will not finance the same mistakes semester after semester. Perhaps this might mean moving back home and going to community college, perhaps this might mean taking a year off to save your own money for tuition. It'd depend.

This is easy to say when you're having the "These are my expectations of you in college" talk. It's hard to say after first semester if you're looking at dismal grades or a postponed graduation. It's always better to make your expectations clear up front.

I say this because if the admissions process is so taxing for your family, you may be in (unknown) disagreement about other college details.

 

[golfgal]

Good point. Here's a similar one: If your student is awarded a scholarship that's so large it's a "make or break" thing for a certain school . . . look into whether it's going to be renewable for the next three years, and look into whether it's LIKELY to be renewed for the next three years.

Here's what I'm getting at: I've known a couple students who were given very nice scholarships for their freshman year, but they were not renewable after that (this tends to be a small private school thing). It's kind of like a "teaser scholarship". The student chooses this school because of the great price . . . but then they're faced with full-priced tuition for the next three years. This puts them in a difficult position: Pay more (perhaps taking out loans) or transfer? Personally, I'd rather my child START at the lower-priced school rather than transfer.An excellent point. What is it that attracts her to the world of journalism? What other careers -- careers that may be in greater demand -- incorporate these same factors?

If she loves researching and digging up details, being a paralegal would use those same skills -- and would include writing. Tech writers are in moderate demand. Website designers incorporates writing and technology. Test writing is a lucrative field, though not many people will get jobs doing that. In our house, we're big on making our expectations very clear. This seems self-evident, but it's going to be a condition for our daughters when they start college: We're on the semester-by-semester plan. I will gladly, happily pay for your first semester of college . . . but I expect to see that you're attending school full-time and passing classes. As long as I see you're moving towards graduation, I'll gladly, happily pay for the second semester. But IF I see that you're not attending class, failing things here and there . . . then we're going to make changes. I will not finance the same mistakes semester after semester. Perhaps this might mean moving back home and going to community college, perhaps this might mean taking a year off to save your own money for tuition. It'd depend.

This is easy to say when you're having the "These are my expectations of you in college" talk. It's hard to say after first semester if you're looking at dismal grades or a postponed graduation. It's always better to make your expectations clear up front.

I say this because if the admissions process is so taxing for your family, you may be in (unknown) disagreement about other college details.

Schools don't want you to transfer and if they give you a "teaser" scholarship, there is a very good chance they will offer something for subsequent years to keep you-as long as you keep up your grades. I found that the scholarship money was BETTER after freshman year because you had proven you could do well in college. If they have too many kids, especially their top students, transferring, that mess up all of their recruiting stats. If kids are not getting further scholarships it is either because they are not applying or they haven't kept up their grades.

 

[bballmom56]

Another point on merit scholarships - even if they are awarded initially for 4 years, there may (and often is) a minimum gpa that must be maintained to keep that scholarship. So if the student accepts a $20,000 with a 3.5 min. gpa needed and stuggles in that first year, they may lose it altogether. Both of my kids had min. gpa's to meet for their scholarships and both missed them that first semester freshman year. College is a big adjustment, they had difficult courses for that first semester and knowing they had to meet that gpa added stress.

Our kids' university is kinder than some in that they give the student a semester to raise it above the min., which both of my kids did.

The 3.5 I used as an example is high for most, but DD had to maintain a 3.25 and DS a 3.0. Both were in rigorous majors. DD eventually did graduate magna cum laude with a double major and an honors program, but that first semester was tough!

So check that requirement for any merit scholarships and make sure the student is aware!

 

[disykat]

Schools don't want you to transfer and if they give you a "teaser" scholarship, there is a very good chance they will offer something for subsequent years to keep you-as long as you keep up your grades. I found that the scholarship money was BETTER after freshman year because you had proven you could do well in college. If they have too many kids, especially their top students, transferring, that mess up all of their recruiting stats. If kids are not getting further scholarships it is either because they are not applying or they haven't kept up their grades.

Actually, I know someone this happened to as well. He was very valuable on the football team AND kept his grades up. He found out in late spring that the expected family contribution for him to return had gone up 14K. He ended up going to a community college for a semester and then heading to a state school.

 

[WheresFigment?]

It's pretty common actually. The school doesn't really care if you transfer after freshman year because all the important specs are about incoming freshmen. There's no stats on how many people who enter graduate.

They would rather you get out and someone who can pay full freight in cash come in. That's just the reality of it right now. Cash is king, and the scholarship student is just not as valuable, because there are a lot of parents with kids with good grades who have the cash in the bank to pay those big tuition numbers.

My school was famous for giving an extra $10k scholarship for freshman year, that was theoretically renewable but almost impossible to actually renew. A lot of people left after freshman year because of the cost.

 

[tar heel]

It's pretty common actually. The school doesn't really care if you transfer after freshman year because all the important specs are about incoming freshmen. There's no stats on how many people who enter graduate.

Actually, those stats are generally readily available. In some cases, the school does not advertise them. It's a very telling statistic and one that anyone looking at a college should consider. We didn't have any trouble getting them for the schools my sons looked at. Here's my alma mater:

http://oira.unc.edu/freshmen-retention-and-graduation-rates-aau-comparison.html

 

[arminnie]

It's pretty common actually. The school doesn't really care if you transfer after freshman year because all the important specs are about incoming freshmen. There's no stats on how many people who enter graduate.

Maybe that is the case for some small colleges that aren't ranked, but retention and graduation rates are EXTREMELY IMPORTANT in university rankings.

This is not just a guess on my part. I heard it directly from the President of Tulane University yesterday. Tulane's ranking took a hit post Katrina because of the number of students who did not return to graduate. Those stats make up over 25% of the score.

Retention is very, very important at good schools.

 

[MrsPete]

Actually, I know someone this happened to as well. He was very valuable on the football team AND kept his grades up. He found out in late spring that the expected family contribution for him to return had gone up 14K. He ended up going to a community college for a semester and then heading to a state school.

Yep, I've heard variations on that story numerous times. The school is hoping that you'll stay and pay full price (even if it means taking out loans), and they're reserving that money to attract another new freshman.

 

[Julia M]

She just called us with list of 8 schools she wants to apply to, and asked for our cc # to help pay application fees (we didn't give it to her). Her schools that she said she wants to go to are NYU, Berkley, UCLA, San Fran, Univer. of Colorado & PSU, plus 2 others.
Thoughts?? Opinions??

UCLA and Berkeley are historically the two hardest UC's to get in to. It seems it can alternate year to year, which is THE toughest.

UCLA:
Averages
High School GPA: 4.16
ACT Composite Score: 29
SAT Critical Reading: 655
SAT Mathematics: 687
SAT Writing: 668

Berkeley:
Averages
High School GPA: 4.15
ACT Composite Score: 30
SAT Critical Reading: 665
SAT Mathematics: 692
SAT Writing: 676

Not sure what you mean by San Fran? That could mean USF, a private Catholic (Jesuit) university or San Francisco State University

SFSU is likely:
Average GPA 3.11
SAT Math 506 average
SAT Critical Reading 505 average
SAT Writing 501 average

USF is probable, but with a BIG price tag
Average GPA 3.5
SAT Math 510-610 range of middle 50%
SAT Critical Reading 500-610 range of middle 50%
SAT Writing 510-620 range of middle 50%

The other thing colleges look for, beyond GPA and test scores is strength of curriculum.....meaning how many honors classes did you take, how many AP, and just how many college prep classes taken.......just because admission criteria may say "a minimum", that's often not enough.

For the CA schools mentioned, U I would expect 4 years of English and math, at least 3 years of science, social studies and languages and then some additional college prep electives.

The good need is that there are some great Cal State colleges. However, ALL the Cal State colleges and universities have a deadline of November 30 for their applications for the next fall. I strongly suggest not waiting until the end of November, because the system can get bogged down.

Good Luck to you.

Julia