Someday I fear health insurance will be a thing of the past.

[RockAndRollBallerina]

2) the highest cost is usually end of life care. let's seriously start looking at the cost and effects without scare tatics like "cutting grandma's life support".

This is no joke particularly when you have a loved one who has to be in assisted living because they are no longer able to live on their own because its too dangerous for them to do so, and when rather son or daughter have too many health problems of their own to take care of them full time, or son and daughter cant quit their jobs to take care of them full time. When you add up all associated costs Medicare/Medicare Supplement policy, medication, medical bills, assisted living, and other various expenses its an easy $6,000+ a month.

 

[crisi]

This is no joke particularly when you have a loved one who has to be in assisted living because they are no longer able to live on their own because its too dangerous for them to do so, and when rather son or daughter have too many health problems of their own to take care of them full time, or son and daughter cant quit their jobs to take care of them full time. When you add up all associated costs Medicare/Medicare Supplement policy, medication, medical bills, assisted living, and other various expenses its an easy $6,000+ a month.

My brother in law has terminal cancer. $6000 a chemo session. It won't save his life, merely prolong it. He is in a lot of pain and the chemo makes him ill. It isn't my decision to make...but I wonder if I'd do that.

On the other hand, if he'd had decent insurance when it was first discovered, he might have lived a fairly normal lifespan instead of having no chance to make it to 50.

 

[eliza61]

Go right ahead then let us know in a few years how it worked out for you. My daughter works at a premier health care facility here in the US and sees wealthy people coming here from Europe (those wonderful universal health care countries that you crave) every day to get the state of the art treatment they can't get with their "free" healthcare.

But the reality is that the "state of the art" procedure is a very slim part of overall out of control health care cost.

sure they come here to get "new" methods or developmental treatments but once again those are a very slim part of the health care cost.

And once again, how many poor people or middle class folks without insurance is your daughter seeing get "state of the art" treatment. ZERO!! for profit hospitals take a very small % of indigent cases a year. usually they accept the minimum % they have to take to qualify for trial studies. The percentage of folks without health care that premier health care facilities take is laughable. so you just proved the basic problem unless you've got dough, it ain't happening.

So you can't use that as an argument because we're not getting that treatment either.

 

[fakereadhed]

Sure there will be disparity in health care, but there will be a minimum level that is not "go to the ER if you are dying" - which is what we have no.

And that's not a scare tactic? All sorts of folks are treated and evaluated in the ER, including illegals, for non life-threatening issues without insurance.

 

[eliza61]

This is no joke particularly when you have a loved one who has to be in assisted living because they are no longer able to live on their own because its too dangerous for them to do so, and when rather son or daughter have too many health problems of their own to take care of them full time, or son and daughter cant quit their jobs to take care of them full time. When you add up all associated costs Medicare/Medicare Supplement policy, medication, medical bills, assisted living, and other various expenses its an easy $6,000+ a month.

My brother in law has terminal cancer. $6000 a chemo session. It won't save his life, merely prolong it. He is in a lot of pain and the chemo makes him ill. It isn't my decision to make...but I wonder if I'd do that.

On the other hand, if he'd had decent insurance when it was first discovered, he might have lived a fairly normal lifespan instead of having no chance to make it to 50.

And these are the issues we have to address rationally but everyone is so scared because they equate any type of change with some how the world is going to end.

I saw Dennis quaid on tv on time. He's on a campaign to get medical records computerized. His son almost died because due to a mix up with his records, he was given a drug dose I think it was some thing like 10X's the recommended dose of a blood thinner. anyway instead of suing the hospital for millions he address the problem of the mix up. long story short the hospital in la, computerized their records, instituted bedside barcodes and computerized doctor orders. Now not only have medical mistakes gone down but the cost of the paper work dropped significantly (I think I heard some thing near 30%).

So Mr. Quaid and his wife are trying to get more hospitals to get on board. The biggest obstacle? people screaming about how this is socialism, invasion of privacy and can lead to identity theft. which is hysterical because the same people probably use credit cards on line.

Now I'm not saying these problems aren't legit & important, but we have documented success of a change and we're allowing fearmongers to keep us from trying it nationwide. Hell if Apple can come out with a new ipad with great technology, I willing to bet there are tech companies that can develop a system for computerizing records securely.

This is just one example.

 

[leahjade]

Sure there will be disparity in health care, but there will be a minimum level that is not "go to the ER if you are dying"

What a joke - ask anyone who works in an ER - hundreds of people come in every week with a child with an earache, tummy ache, sore throat just because they don't want to pay the co-pay at a doctor's office. Since the hospital can't turn anyone away, the ER becomes a dumping ground for people who try to get everything for free which is why costs are so high for the working class.

 

[eliza61]

What a joke - ask anyone who works in an ER - hundreds of people come in every week with a child with an earache, tummy ache, sore throat just because they don't want to pay the co-pay at a doctor's office. Since the hospital can't turn anyone away, the ER becomes a dumping ground for people who try to get everything for free which is why costs are so high for the working class.

That is a flat out stereotype. Right up there with all people on welfare are lazy but have money to go to disney.
Sorry I don't know one soul who goes to the ER instead of a primary if they could afford it. And I'm at Cooper hospital more times than I care to be working with the poor in Camden. I see them daily.

They are there for one reason, their kid is sick and they have no money or insurance. they don't have a copay because they don't have money to afford insurance.

But I'll tell you what, I'll see if I can cut and paste your comment to the ER nurses I know. I'll truthfully try and get them to answer. I'll have to subscribe to this thread because I'm not due back until Monday. In fact, I'll post the question on my facebook page and see what I get. Now I know that's pretty unscientific as far as polls go but it will give me an idea of my little corner of the world.

 

[leahjade]

Sorry I don't know one soul who goes to the ER instead of a primary if they could afford it.
They are there for one reason, their kid is sick and they have no money or insurance. they don't have a copay because they don't have money to afford insurance.

Sorry to burst your bubble but they DON'T pay for insurance - they have a welfare access card and it happens every day in every hospital in the U.S. Ask anyone who works in an emergency room.

 

[crisi]

And that's not a scare tactic? All sorts of folks are treated and evaluated in the ER, including illegals, for non life-threatening issues without insurance.

No that isn't a scare tactic. I'm well aware that is the status quo. Its just that WE CAN DO BETTER. We can be better people. We can live in a society that does not shun those in need because if I have to pay higher taxes, I might not get to go to Disney World every year!

We are so selfish.

And the shame is that our selfish behavior is haunting us. The company my husbands works for outsourced to Canada - why Canada? Higher taxes - but they don't have to take on their employees health insurance burden. So now there are 1500 less fairly good paying jobs in the U.S., and 1500 more people in the US without health care.

 

[eliza61]

Sorry to burst your bubble but they DON'T pay for insurance - they have a welfare access card and it happens every day in every hospital in the U.S. Ask anyone who works in an emergency room.

Uhm Leah, pretty much if you're on welfare you're pretty broke so once again it's not a situation about not "wanting" to pay, its more an issue of can't pay.

THATS THE PROBLEM. NO INSURANCE!!! You said they come into the ER because they don't want to pay their COPAY. Generally the word "copay" is associated with insurance.

Now the other issue with medical access cards is that primary doctors in many states (like nj and pa) don't have to accept them and many do not, so in the case of Camden NJ you also have the issue of no other options. Now in Pa, if you are on medicaid with a small child you don't have a copay. so once again I don't know where you got this "they bring they're kids there to get out of paying a copay" from. Here is the rule for the welfare office:

Do all Medical Assistance recipients have to pay copayments?

No. Copayments are not required for:

•Persons younger than 18 years old. This is any person who has not reached his or her 18th birthday.
•Pregnant women (including post-partum period)
•Residents of a long term care facility or other medical institution.


Now I don't know where you are at but in NJ & PA if a mama is in the ER due to a tummy ache with a child under 18, it's because there is some other reason she is not at her primary and I'm willing to bet it's because her primary is going to charge her an office visit that is not covered by medicaid. (depending on her entitlement, she will have a specific number of visits).

So exactly what are you claiming? People on welfare use the er as their primary doctors. that's old news. every one knows that, it's part of the problem. How to get them basic primary care without going to er.

 

[fakereadhed]

No that isn't a scare tactic. I'm well aware that is the status quo. Its just that WE CAN DO BETTER. We can be better people. We can live in a society that does not shun those in need because if I have to pay higher taxes, I might not get to go to Disney World every year!

We are so selfish.

And the shame is that our selfish behavior is haunting us. The company my husbands works for outsourced to Canada - why Canada? Higher taxes - but they don't have to take on their employees health insurance burden. So now there are 1500 less fairly good paying jobs in the U.S., and 1500 more people in the US without health care.

You can include yourself in the selfish category, but please leave the "we" out of that. You have NO idea what my motives are. I am not disagreeing with your point of view so I can go on vacation instead of a tax hike. I just don't agree with you that single payer will improve the situation. I am considering the big picture greater good as well, from a different point of view.

 

[kimblebee]

As for pre-existing conditions... if I go buy a car from a junk yard that was in a wreck would it be okay with you to then go buy car insurance and as soon as I get it tell the insurance company they need to fix my car? That is what you are talking about with pre-existing conditions... if the insurance company did fix my car then they would just raise the insurance premiums on everyone... would that really be a smart idea? In the end, life isn't always fair... some people are born with problems and when that happens it might be sad for you... but it really is the responsibility of the parents that decided to have the kid... not mine, not yours...
As for people needing and deserving affordable health care, it would be nice if everyone could have affordable health care... BUT People do not NEED or DESERVE affordable healthcare, it might make them happier, it might make them live longer... but people can exist without it healthcare... you are't born with an inalienable right to a doctor.

I am so offended by this I don't even know where to start. I am 35 and was diagnosed with MS when I was 22. Luckily, my MS is very mild and I only have a major relapse every year or two. I still see my neurologist every year for check ups and have biannual MRIs to see how the brain damage is progressing.

I am a single mom but I am working and am able to raise my daughter on my own with no aid. I am not rich, or even well off by any means. If I was responsible for paying for my doctors visits and MRIs it simply wouldn't get done. Your attitude is oh well. Not my fault you got sick, tough **** for you.

How DARE you reduce me to less than you? My life and quality of life is just as important as yours. You are no better than me. It is attitudes like yours that make me thankful every day that I don't live 'down there'. People like you keep a lot of negative feelings about American attitudes firmly in place.

 

[justbishop]

Go right ahead then let us know in a few years how it worked out for you. My daughter works at a premier health care facility here in the US and sees wealthy people coming here from Europe (those wonderful universal health care countries that you crave) every day to get the state of the art treatment they can't get with their "free" healthcare.

I'm sure that we would not have had to come up with almost $12,000 out of pocket on top of paying for insurance in the past 3 years if we had been in a country with universal healthcare. I'm sure it's not a silver bullet, and not ideal for everyone, but this is the type of situation that is literally AND figuratively killing this nation's working middle class (like my own family), so universal care would be my choice if it were an option.

As for pre-existing conditions... if I go buy a car from a junk yard that was in a wreck would it be okay with you to then go buy car insurance and as soon as I get it tell the insurance company they need to fix my car? That is what you are talking about with pre-existing conditions... if the insurance company did fix my car then they would just raise the insurance premiums on everyone... would that really be a smart idea? In the end, life isn't always fair... some people are born with problems and when that happens it might be sad for you... but it really is the responsibility of the parents that decided to have the kid... not mine, not yours...

As for people needing and deserving affordable health care, it would be nice if everyone could have affordable health care... BUT People do not NEED or DESERVE affordable healthcare, it might make them happier, it might make them live longer... but people can exist without it healthcare... you are't born with an inalienable right to a doctor.

I have to disagree with the bolded and say that as long as we as a society have the have the knowledge and education to provide it, yes, everyone that can be reasonably treated should be treated, without them having to go bankrupt to do so.

 

[eliza61]

As for people needing and deserving affordable health care, it would be nice if everyone could have affordable health care... BUT People do not NEED or DESERVE affordable healthcare, it might make them happier, it might make them live longer... but people can exist without it healthcare... you are't born with an inalienable right to a doctor.

Seriously dude. Your really saying that only folks who can afford good health care should get it? lets see by that logic, only those who can afford clean healthy water should get it since no where does it say you have the right to clean water and by that logic I guess hunger in America is cool to since no where does it say you should have an inalienable right to food.

So then at least be honest about it and stop all the "all men are created equal" BS. Call it what it will be come: a class system where

Those with money will have it and live good
Those without will do just as you say they will EXSIST.

And in reality that only works on paper because all these so called undeserving, without the right to have healthcare folks aren't going to magically disappear and with their numbers growing by leaps and bounds every year, we'd better figure out a way to deal with it outside of saying "tough cookie, I got mine" because as a very wise man once said,

We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Now he was talking about basic civil rights (which I guess by your argument, wouldn't have happen because no one said Blacks had the inalienable right to go to school where they wanted either, but I digress).

so we either fix the problem of rising health care cost and the uninsured or we all pay for the consequences.

 

[Teresa Pitman]

even with UHC we still pay alot, not as much as you maybe, but we have monthly fees, user fees and such.

It is a bearable cost to handle though, and I count my lucky stars for it everytime my kids have to see the doctor!

That's different in each province, though. We don't have user fees or monthly fees in Ontario.

I very much appreciate our health care. I was a single mother with four kids (grown now) working as a freelance writer. I don't know how we could have managed without our health care system.

Teresa

 

[thomas998]

If I was responsible for paying for my doctors visits and MRIs it simply wouldn't get done. Your attitude is oh well. Not my fault you got sick, tough **** for you.

How DARE you reduce me to less than you? My life and quality of life is just as important as yours. You are no better than me. It is attitudes like yours that make me thankful every day that I don't live 'down there'. People like you keep a lot of negative feelings about American attitudes firmly in place.

You are right, my attitude is oh well. Would it be right if when i got sick I went to your place of work and told your boss to cut your pay and give me money you earned for my doctor bills? You might not be able to buy food for your daughter, or you might not even miss it, but I wouldn't care nor would your boss we would just take your money. That is what socialized medicine really is.

Now am I more valuable than you? I'm sure your family and friends wouldn't think so, but that is just opinion. To really measure we would need to measure how much productivity you provide vs. How much i provide... Itcan actually be done for you me and anyone else. The same way they decided how much money families of 9/11 victims would be paid for the person death.

I don't have a problem with that... You do... I simply think people that want to rely on the government to steal money from people that work harder to support people who don't are for lack of a better word - lazy.

 

[MrsPete]

Well, as I've said, I'd much rather pay higher taxes and not have to pay OOP for deductibles and the stupid "OOP maximum" (which I also think is ridiculous...if I'm going to have to come up with $x when something happens, why not just call THAT my deductible?!) on top of it.

And the higher taxes can't be all that bad. From what I gather, people in many countries with universal care live lives that are equal to ours in quality.

Well then, you have more faith than I do in our government. Can you point to a large-scale program they're running well and keeping solvent financially? Social security's in trouble, schools are going downhill, people on this thread are talking about the military cutting benefits, welfare's been a mess forever, even our national parks have their problems . . . yet you think they'd take your tax dollars and spend them wisely and well on health care? Have services available for you when you need them? Pay the health care providers a fair wage on time? At a tax rate that wouldn't be "all that bad"?

You have more faith than I do in our government.

But once again James, all of it is symbiotic. It's not one or another. Many times for those without access to health care, you also don't have access to healthy eating or the information on preventable diseases. Most poor folks who have diabetes, you know when they get to the doctor to discuss ways to treat or prevent it? when they head to the ER due to an episode.


I totally, 100% agree that obesity is a growing epidemic, I applaud all the tv personalities and others who are trying to bring attention to the problem but once again you can have a great sense of personal responsibility and when you get sick with some thing "minor" you still can't afford to see a doctor when it's least expensive, so you wait until your something "minor" becomes "major" and then you use the ER (which is usually 100X's as expensive) as a doctor visit.

I agree with you that preventative health care -- weight management, exercise, vaccinations, routine screenings -- aren't taken seriously enough, and IF people'd be a bit more careful about these things, a whole bunch of health care costs would disappear.

However, being poor is no excuse for failing to have information on eating healthy or avoiding disease. Nutrition is taught in school (for free), books are available at the library (for free), and plenty of health information is available on the internet (and I find that almost 100% of my students have internet service at home, even those who receive free lunch), and grocery store packaging tells us what's healthy. The real issue is not caring, not prioritizing one's own health until it's an emergency, not bothering to get the information.

 

[thomas998]

Sure there will be disparity in health care, but there will be a minimum level that is not "go to the ER if you are dying" - which is what we have no.

There will ALWAYS be disparity - but that doesn't mean we shouldn't make an effort to meet everyone's basic needs.

I don't see how waiting for the U.S. government to fix my paperwork problems is any different than my four year battle with United Health Care because I'd pay my co-pay at the doctors office - and then UHC would bill me for it. It only lasted four years because it was no longer worth my time.

I think well already do enough when we provide a free education to people. If you use the education you can get a job and provide for yourself, if you squander you education you have no one to blame but yourself. Government should provide no health care and hospital ERs should be allowed to turn away any one that can't pay.

 

[MrsPete]

That is a flat out stereotype. Right up there with all people on welfare are lazy but have money to go to disney.

Sure about that? My mom, who just retired from Social Work, tells me that she's seen it happen time and time again. Poor people who don't have regular doctors take their kids to the emergency room for things like strep throat, and you and I foot the bill.

Sad fact, but not a sterotype.

That's different in each province, though. We don't have user fees or monthly fees in Ontario.

I very much appreciate our health care. I was a single mother with four kids (grown now) working as a freelance writer. I don't know how we could have managed without our health care system.

Teresa

Simple: If you hadn't been paying the taxes to support Universal Healthcare, you'd have had more money each month in your paycheck. You'd have saved, you'd have paid only on the months when your kids were actually sick, and you'd have come out ahead.

 

[thomas998]

I have to disagree with the bolded and say that as long as we as a society have the have the knowledge and education to provide it, yes, everyone that can be reasonably treated should be treated, without them having to go bankrupt to do so.

I have a better solution... People that don't want to be cared for by the state can opt out, pay not taxes related to health care and only be treatedby doctors they pay for on thier own... Others that don't want to look out for themselves can pay more taxes and let the government tell them how to live. I know what my choice is.