Saving on International Airfare

[PottersMom]

-long- This isn't a disney question per se but it is a budget question, and I totally plan on using any $$ I save toward Disney trip next year so I think its ok to post:
We have to fly to Europe this fall (Czech Republic) to see my husbands family. It is a lot of $$ for our family. We have a daughter that will be a few weeks shy of her 2nd birthday when we go. I was planning on buying her a ticket and bringing her car seat because even though we CAN take her on our lap, I thought it would be a nightmare. Talking about it with our babysitter today, (whose family lives in South America) and she says she has taken 4 international flights with kids under 2 and they have always given her an extra seat if one was available-which it always was. In fact, once they bumped her up to first class. (not expecting that!)
Anyway, I know the only way to GUARANTEE she has her own seat is to buy a ticket for her, so don't waste your time reminding me of that please. but I was wondering of anyone else here has had any experience with this.I guess it only makes sense that they would want her in a seat if there is one available that has not been sold. It would save us close to $900. Would you chance it?

 

[PixieDustandEeyore]

I fly very often and I think it REALLY depends on the route. On flights im on which are mostly north american (both Canada and the US) planes Im on a few times a month are often sold out! (I do alot of travelling!) So I wouldn't chance it! But there have been times where seats have been arranged so lap babies could have their own seat etc...but Ive seen people refuse to move before as that is the seat they wanted etc. Sometimes people just won't move. And for a flight that long do you want to chance it?

I'd just buy it and save yourself concern. I know that isn't budget friendly but since sometimes people don't want to move, planes get sold out etc etc Id buy it

 

[MichelleinMaine]

Have you asked the airline what the charge for an under 2 seat would be? In the "olden days" (my kids are a few years past 2 I thought an under 2 ticket was significantly less than child/adult fare. Something to check on anyway.

 

[*BTMRR*]

With only one exception, the international flights I was on in the past year or so were 100% full according to the flight crew. I think your chances of getting the extra seat for free are pretty slim, unfortunately. I'd spend the money on the seat (first find out if they can offer you a better fare for the baby!) and scrimp elsewhere if possible.

 

[PottersMom]

I thought it would vary a lot by the route, also. The sitter travels to Lima, Peru. We are going from Atlanta to Amsterdam and then on to Prague. I think one of the sites lets you see how many seats are left on the plane (kayak, I think).
We are planning on flying KLM Roayal Air which is a European airline affiliated with Delta. It says on the website that they may offer a discount on infants and children. When I put in our daughters age it automatically lists her as an infant and doesn't charge for a seat. When I start the booking on a site like Kayak or Expedia, it lists her as a child only and charges the same as an adult. I called KLM, (who connected me to Delta) and they said they would be happy to book it for me for $20. I said, "How 'bout you fix your website so I can book my own ticket properly and I'll keep my $20!" $900 is a lot of money. A LOT. If there is only a 10-20% chance they'll have another seat I will pay it, but if there is only a 10-20% chance they WON'T have a seat for her, I would rather save my $900 and pay for a Disney vacation (that I am missing this year!) in the spring.

 

[Cruise]

Traditionally, the fall has been less busy in terms of travel to Europe. However, the airlines have made up for this by running fewer flights. As a PP mentioned, most flights fly full these days. And Atlanta to Amsterdam is a pretty popular route as a gateway into Europe.

As you said, the only way to guarantee the seat is to buy one. It really depends on you weighing the pros and cons of how the flight would be if an extra seat weren't available. That's a long way to travel with an almost 2 year old on your lap.

 

[katied]

First thing - lap babies are NOT free on international flights. You still have to pay 10% of the FULL FARE for the class of service. FULL FARE does not mean 10% of what you paid, but 10% of the max fare for that ticket. So, call the airline and find out the cost of a lap baby if you're really considering it. My first trip with DS was for work, and I had a business class ticket. DS cost $1,100 to sit on my lap round trip from Chicago - Paris. It would have been less expensive to buy him a coach set, but at 5 months, I knew he would spend the whole trip on my lap anway, so I'd rather be in business class.

I've flown with DS 4 times to Europe while he was under 2. In all but that first trip, I bought him his own seat. And, in all of those cases, there were no open seats on at least one leg of the oversees portion of the trip. Also, there was generally no room on the intra-Europe flights.

We took most of the trips during the off season - Oct 07, Nov 07, Mar/Apr 08, Oct. 08 and Sept/Oct 09 (he was over 2 on this trip, but the flights were fully booked).

I would buy a seat because it would be a nightmare to not have a seat for a nearly 2 yr old on a trip that length. Also, please be aware that sometimes, the non-US airlines will still not allow an under 2 kid to sit in the carseat for takeoff/landing. I've had this happen to me twice, where they still made me hold DS on my lap for takeoff and landing (British Airways both times). Seems odd to me, but I don't like to argue with the flight attendants on the plane. Also, the European airlines do seem to find it confusing to check in an under 2 kid for a seat vs. just a lap baby. Just not something they see very often, I guess. It took about 20 min extra for them to work thru this on several of my flights with DS.

 

[sjaakie]

Look into the flights of Air Berlin. http://www.airberlin.com/site/start.php?MARKT=NL&LANG=eng

These flights are always fully booked so the chance for a free seat will be zero.
We always book it and it a very good air liner.

 

[SCADC]

We just adopted from Ukraine in March of this year.

We used United & Lufthansa, flying out in Feb. - delayed to the record breaking snow storm at Dulles. I do not recall any empty seats on any flights - except on our first flight from GSP to Dulles and it was delayed 6 hours - almost everyone changed airlines and I bet there were only 7 people on the flight.

That said - all flights were full!!!

Dulles to Frankfort
Frankfort to Borispol

On the way back - we were packing in like sardines - all classes were full.
Borispol to Munich
Munich to Dulles
Our return from Dulles to GSP may have had a few.

We adopted a 3 year-old and I cannot imagine not having that extra seat for him!

We used a travel agent, so I did not deal with the airlines. It was a difficult getting a flight home as we had to change and everything was full due to spring break. I think our son's ticket was $700.

Hope things work out.

 

[Aristomommy]

In the fall, the flights are not usually full, which may increase your odds of an extra seat. I have flown with a lap child to Europe 3 or 4 times. Each time I asked for a bulkhead seat, which will allow extra legroom for everyone. The downside is that there is no one in front of use = less space to store your bag. We have flown over at night, so my kids have fallen asleep pretty easily and on the way back they have at least taken a nap which has helped.

If the flights look full and your child would have a hard time, then plan to get a seat for everyone's comfort.

 

[PottersMom]

UGH! I am torn. See, I have never flown to Europe, so I have no clue. And it's true what katied said above: the seat for her isn't free, its 10% of ours, but compared to close to $900, I'll take it. Maybe...
And its also true what pp said about the euro airlines not getting buying a seat for a kid under 2, there was literally no way fo rme to book it on KLM's website, everytime I put in her birthday it took her seat away! I had to lie about her birthday to get a price (which I don't want to do b/c it won't match her passport)
It just seems crazy to me that on a plane that large there wouldn't be 2 empty seats together. We don't all three have to sit together. These planes are gigantic, are they not? Any chance of us trading off during the middle of the flight if we don't buy her a seat and its worst case scenario?
I checked the same routes on Delta for this Tuesday, instead of October. It was still showing 9+ seats remaing. And same for next month.

 

[sjaakie]

UGH!
It just seems crazy to me that on a plane that large there wouldn't be 2 empty seats together. We don't all three have to sit together. These planes are gigantic, are they not? Any chance of us trading off during the middle of the flight if we don't buy her a seat and its worst case scenario?
I checked the same routes on Delta for this Tuesday, instead of October. It was still showing 9+ seats remaing. And same for next month.

October is a big vacation month in Europe. Many countries have fall vacation and with a little shifting people fly to the Sates for two weeks.
I would not count on a free seat.

As far as the remaining seats on the internet site I never understood that. In April there still were "remaining" seats on the internet pages although they had to stuff the plains with people because of the volcano problems in Iceland.

 

[OrangeCountyCommuter]

I checked the same routes on Delta for this Tuesday, instead of October. It was still showing 9+ seats remaing. And same for next month.

How did you check the routes? Was it the seat map or did you have a Travel Agent type site that showed you tickets for sale by fare class?

Seat maps are not really reliable.

That said I have flown ATL to Europe several times in the past year and none of them during what I would consider "peak" and EVERY seat has been taken.

I know (because I have friends who work for Delta) that a LOT of it's employees and their friends/families who fly "standby" so remember that those passengers will "bump" your free seat request. And generally a lot of those don't clear until very close to the flight time. And one of my friends says that AMS is good to fly into because it's "easier" to get connections from there then places like London. Don't know if she's telling the truth, but.....

As others pointed out the airlines have cut WAY back on capacity to Europe which means they can now sell all those seats in the plane and at a profit. I would say your chances of having an empty seat BOTH ways are pretty low.

 

[crashbb]

UGH! I am torn. See, I have never flown to Europe, so I have no clue. And it's true what katied said above: the seat for her isn't free, its 10% of ours, but compared to close to $900, I'll take it. Maybe...
And its also true what pp said about the euro airlines not getting buying a seat for a kid under 2, there was literally no way fo rme to book it on KLM's website, everytime I put in her birthday it took her seat away! I had to lie about her birthday to get a price (which I don't want to do b/c it won't match her passport)
It just seems crazy to me that on a plane that large there wouldn't be 2 empty seats together. We don't all three have to sit together. These planes are gigantic, are they not? Any chance of us trading off during the middle of the flight if we don't buy her a seat and its worst case scenario?
I checked the same routes on Delta for this Tuesday, instead of October. It was still showing 9+ seats remaing. And same for next month.

Actually, two empty seats together is quite rare unless the plane is fairly empty. A couple flying together for example, may book a window/aisle which would leave the single middle seat empty. A single traveler may take an aisle seat in a row in which another single traveler has taken the window.

Odds are slightly better on wide body planes with a 3-5-3 configurations. However, a car seat needs to be in a window seat (on most airlines), meaning you'd need the two seats to be window/middle.

Further still, they are unlikely to move people so that you can get a seat that you chose not to pay for (if, for example, there were empty seats but they weren't in the same row). You basically have to hope that you happen to have an empty seat beside you.

Also, on some airlines/flights they don't allow any lap children to get a free seat unless every lap child can get a free seat.

 

[PottersMom]

Ok, so nobody thinks there will be an extra seat. That was all good info. Thanks everyone. I have a few more questions. I have heard that the airline can make you keep your kid in your lap (if they are under 2 at the time of travel) EVEN IF YOU BUY THEM A TICKET. It looks like that is with foriegn carriers and not US airlines. They make you take the kid out of the car seat for take off and landing and if there is turbulence that requires the use of seatbelts for all passengers. This sounds totally crazy to me.

But I sort of feel like, If I won't be allowed to use the car seat when I really need it anyway, maybe I should just go without in the first place. I'm less worried about the way there because its an overnight flight and she'll sleep. Hte way home is a different story. Realistically, she's going to spend a lot of time in my lap anyway (or my husbands) if we buy her a ticket or not. She likes to cuddle- big time. And if we buy her a ticket we have to use the car seat, (I cant just put her in the seat with the airplane seatbelt, in other words._Which would NEVER stay buckled with my kid anyway...) The whole thing is so weird.
Who's done it, and how did it work out? I guess is my question.

 

[SCADC]

We only saw one car seat on all of our flights to and from Ukraine and it was on the return flight into Dulles - a 9 hour flight.

If it is only going to cost $90, I would say it is worth the money because not only will you have more space, you will also have the opportunity for your little one to watch her own movies and listen to her own music which will help entertain her. We thought our son would sleep most of the way, but he did not. Of course, we had to pay for his seat because he is 3.

 

[PottersMom]

Oh no! $900. Yes, only $900 extra. We're enot talking chump change here. As in, the money I save could pay for most of our next Disney trip. My husband says it'll be fine, we shoudl just go eithout, because she won't spend that much time in the seat anyway. True. The thing is, she is going through a phase where she only wants MOMMY to hold her and wants to spend every minute in MY lap. So, although Daddy is willing to help, unless hse outgrows this nonsense before October (which she might, getting more independent every day- already potty training and that jazz) it will be me that has to deal with it, primarily.
If it were only $90 that would actually be a SAVINGS over lap baby, they charge 10% of your fare plus taxes and fees for a lap baby. So even if we don't buy her a ticket it will still cost us $150-$200 for her.

 

[scrapquitler]

I think you should call the airline or a travel agent first, and ask them about discounted fares for children... I know that at least a few years ago, many airlines would give discounts for children ON INTERNATIONAL FLIGHTS rather than requiring full fare tickets. Its worth asking, and you m ight find yourself guaranteed a seat for your 'infant' for a lot less than you think it will cost.

 

[a1tinkfans]

We just adopted from Ukraine in March of this year.


We adopted a 3 year-old and I cannot imagine not having that extra seat for him!


CONGRATULATIONS!!!
my brother just paid 1500 from jfk to rome for each person just weeks ago, OUCH!

 

[NotUrsula]

Ok, so nobody thinks there will be an extra seat. That was all good info. Thanks everyone. I have a few more questions. I have heard that the airline can make you keep your kid in your lap (if they are under 2 at the time of travel) EVEN IF YOU BUY THEM A TICKET. It looks like that is with foriegn carriers and not US airlines. They make you take the kid out of the car seat for take off and landing and if there is turbulence that requires the use of seatbelts for all passengers. This sounds totally crazy to me.

But I sort of feel like, If I won't be allowed to use the car seat when I really need it anyway, maybe I should just go without in the first place. I'm less worried about the way there because its an overnight flight and she'll sleep. Hte way home is a different story. Realistically, she's going to spend a lot of time in my lap anyway (or my husbands) if we buy her a ticket or not. She likes to cuddle- big time. And if we buy her a ticket we have to use the car seat, (I cant just put her in the seat with the airplane seatbelt, in other words._Which would NEVER stay buckled with my kid anyway...) The whole thing is so weird.
Who's done it, and how did it work out? I guess is my question.

You are right about the bolded part. Several non-US carriers will only allow an under-2 to fly with a belly belt and will not allow a carseat to be taken on board -- Alitalia comes to mind among the larger European flag carriers.

What I've found when traveling with kids that age was that it pays to stick to US-based carriers over the water. I have no issues at all with taking locally-based carriers and having to lap-carry on intra-European flights, but I'm not about to fly over an ocean and try to sleep with an unrestrained impulsive toddler. The only airlines that would guarantee my right to use the seat were US-based carriers, so they got my business.
(Note that's not because they are so much nicer to parents, it's just that US law requires them to allow the use of an approved carseat if you buy a seat to put it in.)

RE: the window-seat requirement: the usual rule is that the seat must not be between any other passenger and the nearest exit. This does mean the window seat on a single-aisle aircraft, but on a widebody with two aisles carseats are usually allowed in the center seat of the center section. This means that if you have less than a whole row you're kind of awkwardly placed, but it is possible.