S/O What is middle class?

[Jen and Ashwin]

Someone feeling personally attacked goes beyond pointing out areas of differences. Just saying.

I was personally attacked. There wasn't anything about feelings there. And it's not like I came back at her with personal attacks of my own. She gave anecdotal evidence about her interactions with her housekeepers while living aboard and belittled my concerns with retirement savings at 33, basically saying that I couldn't possibly be happy. And in return I offered evidence regarding what scientific studies have shown contributes towards happiness.

 

[Jen and Ashwin]

My post weren't trying to be condescending. I think your last post was trying to be really defensive. We can in in circles round and round but that is not going to change either my experiences nor the way I look at things. My original post about the subject has many likes and even a post of someone that thank me for sharing it and that is all that I was trying to accomplish to remind people that yes saving and retirement and college savings are important but put in prespective. But it think people on this board see everything. Lack and white. I personally was not trying to present my point and trying to back it up with facts because that would entail trying to either change someone mind or tryin to win an argument and I dont want neither. But I will stand by my original por about Americans being obsessed with personal finances. I was not attacking for being a saver when did I do that just because I don't agree with you that makes you feel attacked? You responded to my original post to try to prove that you prove your point which is basically savings savings savings if That is what works for you and your are happy then who cares good for you. I don't see how my view point threats yours we can different opinions.

For personal experience I will say when I first got married we were probably as obsessed with personal finances as most Americans. It took me a few trips back and a particular very personal moment to have a life changing moment. Back then I would have said I was happy and we lived a good life, but I can not explain to you the freedom, fulfillment and happiness I have right now with the changes. Not only traveling but investing in experiences. It has translated into to all areas of my life it has pushed me to go out of my comfort zone and because of that I have grown. Looking back if o could change anything right now I would go back and do this sooner. But we are not the same and what works for some doesn't work for others.

Heck I admire so much those people that

I really didn't go about trying to win an argument, but rather to provide a different perspective that you might not have been considering, that it is possible to plan for the future and be happy and living in the now. Your view points don't threaten mine in any way and that was not what I was implying at all.

And you keep implying that I am somehow not experiencing things in a similar way as you. My husband and I spend plenty of our money traveling, attending the local opera and theatrical performances, hiking and generally doing things. That is how we choose to spend our money, in addition to our basic needs and saving for future financial security. I just feel like you keep discounting the idea that it doesn't have to be one or the other, which is maybe why I am so frustrated by this discussion.

 

[ThistleMae]

Can we move on...please. I am retired. I wasn't able to save much when the kids were growing up but did so in my later years, before I retired. I couldn't afford to pay for college but the kids but figured things out, (with my support), although it didn't happen right out of high school. Sometimes it takes living in the real world to decide how to pick a career you'll be happy with. That being said...I have a small pension and am waiting to collect social security. I budget for my vacations by setting an amount aside that I'm willing to spend yearly. Some more expensive than others...Disney being one of them. And...yes I have some health issues, which do play a role in what type of adventures I can do now that I'm older, but there are still so many different things out there, I never feel like I lost out. We all do things a bit differently, and some people may have more options than others...but being happy and feeling secure is all relative. There are many studies that indicate it isn't always financial security that brings happiness. It's definitely different culture to culture. I know people who never plan anything ahead, and they go into debt to take vacations. It's good to hear different opinions, and hopefully we can manage do this with respect. I definitely sense the passion in your varying ideas. Thank you.

 

[ThistleMae]

Can we move on...please? I'm retired. I wasn't able to save much when the kids were growing up but did so in my later years, before I retired. I couldn't afford to pay for college but the kids but figured things out, (with my support), although it didn't happen right out of high school. Sometimes it takes living in the real world to decide how to pick a career you'll be happy with. That being said...I have a small pension and am waiting to collect social security. I budget for my vacations by setting an amount aside that I'm willing to spend yearly. Some more expensive than others...Disney being one of them. And...yes I have some health issues, which do play a role in what type of adventures I can do now that I'm older, but there are still so many different things out there, I never feel like I lost out. We all do things a bit differently, and some people may have more options than others...but being happy and feeling secure is all relative. There are many studies that indicate it isn't always financial security that brings happiness. It's definitely different culture to culture. I know people who never plan anything ahead, and they go into debt to take vacations. It's good to hear different opinions, and hopefully we can manage do this with respect. I definitely sense the passion in your varying ideas. Thank you.

 

[FairestOfThemAll37]

First of all living and vacationing in a country is very very very different. You said you saw this things but did you stopped and talked to this people ? But I think your response only proves to my original point of how obsessed people in this country are about their financial situations. Yeah there are people that live on extreme poverty but newflash there are people that live in extreme poverty in the US i can't think of certain parts of Hawaii and the Appalachians for example.

The world has changed and now we have less people dying of hunger and more dying from over eating (obesity). Yes the country safety net systems are better than what it is provided in the US but no without its faults. Most people in those countries plan to live of their social security and that is it the idea of retirement is very different and because families are so much closer kids make sure that their parents are taking care of if need be. And the biggest one of all people are usually healthier than in the US because they don't eat junk out of convenience. Which make a huge impact on health cost.

It is fine if that is what you want to save for but there is not other interest competing is what YOU are choosing to prioritize. Because you want your retirement to look a certain way.
We spend a lot of time with DH grandparents and their friends. When we talked about traveling to x place 3 out of the 10 couples said they always wanted to go there and they planned on doing it when they retired and when they finally retired they couldn't go because of health issues. A subject that we always like to touch with older people are their biggest regret so far we have never encounter someone that told us save more money (even the one guy that goes around the neighborhood collecting cans to make extra money didn't say that). They regret not traveling, not spending more time with family, not going to that special concert, not spending more time with friend etc.

The irony of saying living for now and saying at 33 you are making retirement decisions...

I see so many people here that work so much that they "don't" have time to eat healthy, they don't have time to go to the thy gym, but really is that is not their priority but it all catches up to you eventually. I would rather live a full life and die having $100 in my bank account than die with a bunch of money and know I never got to do everything I wanted.

I really do hope you get to retirement age and it is everything that you are expecting and more. Many don't ever get there. We have retirement savings (much more than people our age in the US). But in the end to me money is just that money and if tomorrow our pets would need some ridiculous life saving procedure that will take all our vet bills savings and our regular savings I will in a heart beat empty those accounts without second thought . In fact I have empty all our savings before to help a dog I found in the street best money I ever spent! We travel a lot we are leaving for Disney later today this will be our third trip this year. I grew up well off in fact my dads family still well off we vacation every holiday even if it was 4 days. And while my mom always try to teach is the value of money she always made sure to empathize that money is just that a medium and not happiness and to prioritize the really important things. Maybe it is because of the nature of her work (banking) she managed accounts over 20 mil before she decided to quit to go into consulting ( taking a huge pay cut ). The stories of what families do to each other for money were awful and very draining for her.

You know one of the things that impacted me the most living abroad was we always had living in help they all come from poor backgrounds and every single day my mom would ask them how were they doing they never complain they always said things I am doing good and will mention something good that was happening that day this was common. I yet to find someone that does that here. I have gone back to those countries and seen this people that we miss so very much and they still do that I am so grateful to them because they have truly change my life prespective always looking at a glass half full than half empty can make all the difference in the world. Personally I really could care less how other people decide to spend their money, but I did find the responses in this thread very interesting and quite telling about middle class in the US.

You seem to disparage the the "American obsession" with personal finances and the way that impacts their lives, but then you point out how you have much more retirement savings than people your age in the US.

Isn't that a bit hypocritical? That kind of points to what PP was saying about happiness and freedom in financial security.

You mention traveling and retirement, I think in the US that can be about money but more often than not is about time. Life in the US tends to be more fast paced and stressful and because we lack those safety nets, many people don't get a lot (or any in some cases) of vacation time. It can also be hard for some to schedule two parents and kids vacation time.

You seem to think Americans work so much to the point of just eating junk to save the most money? I think that's a bit off. First, our whole food system is broken. That aside, there is a pace (for lack of a better word) that is expected in many work places. Not to mention those that have to work two jobs or extra shifts to make ends meet (or even to live life and travel as you put it). That takes it's toll. Some in this country live very balanced lives, but that's not really the culture of this country.

 

[ThistleMae]

What is the perception of this country from other countries? I imagine you'll get an array of answers. My nephew at age 23, biked across Europe. He said he found that many Europeans did not look favorably on American culture. I'm curious...how do you think other's look at Americans as a whole?

 

[Jen and Ashwin]

What is the perception of this country from other countries? I imagine you'll get an array of answers. My nephew at age 23, biked across Europe. He said he found that many Europeans did not look favorably on American culture. I'm curious...how do you think other's look at Americans as a whole?

I have traveled to over 30 countries and you get very different perspectives in different places. The worst perception that I found of Americans was in France. This was during the Bush administration and my study abroad group went to a restaurant in a little resort town on the Atlantic. We were speaking English during our meal and several men were sitting at the restaurant bar made very crude comments in French about us, Americans in general and President Bush as well. They didn't seem to realize that we had several people in our group that were fully fluent in French. One of the people went up to the men right before we left the restaurant and told them, in French, how much we were all enjoying our time studying in their beautiful country and that she hoped they would be able to visit the United States so that we could repay the wonderful hospitality that their countrymen had shown us. They looked pretty horrified and embarrassed.

Generally though, I have been received with generosity and warmth. This seems especially true in the Middle East. Jordan was one of my very favorite countries to visit. The people were just so friendly and excited to share their country's history and culture. We were staying at a hotel in Amman and there was a wedding reception taking place that evening. The bride and groom personally invited my whole family to join in the festivities. I find that most people are genuinely interested to learn more about what life is like in the United States and so it allows an opportunity for great dialogue about their own lives, cultures, etc.

Many people see Americans as very generous as well. Compared to the rest of the world, we tip very well and spend pretty freely on vacation, which helps bring a lot of money into local economies. And though some might think it hard to believe, Americans generally have good manners, unlikes some tourists from other parts of the world.

Many years ago, I was on a cruise with my mom. There was a newlywed Japanese couple at our dinner table every night. They didn't speak much English, but my mom grew up in Okinawa and speaks Japanese, so we had very lovely conversations. Towards the end of the trip, the woman gave me a beautiful set of hairpins as a gift that she had brought with her from Japan. It really touched me. Now I always try to bring small gifts from home on my international travels, just in case I want to give something to someone I meet or provide something special to a tour guide, cabin steward, etc.

 

[DawnM]

Americans are viewed so differently depending on so many factors.

I grew up overseas and it was a huge range. If the US was giving AID or help, they were usually viewed favorably (I grew up in a 3rd World Country).

Most Islamic countries I have visited viewed women in the US as loose. This was during the era of Bay Watch and for some reason, those were the kind of shows they got from the US there.

And then there is the developed world, which doesn't always view us favorably. The general feeling was that we put our nose into too many things and think too highly of ourselves.

But these are all generalizations......it is the same if I ask 4 different people what they think of another culture. I will get 4 different opinions I am sure.

 

[mrodgers]

Most people in our neighborhood says they are middle class because the houses are modest 2 and 3 bedroom bungalows. I say hogwash you are upper class if you own a house. The prices here are outrageous...

A house a few blocks away from me sold 3 years ago for $2 million.

https://www.zillow.com/homes/for_sa...-122.317414,47.676116,-122.319396_rect/18_zm/

That's funny. At an estimated monthly payment of $8,254, it would take this middle class person 4.85 months to make just 1 monthly payment.

 

[MillauFr]

That's funny. At an estimated monthly payment of $8,254, it would take this middle class person 4.85 months to make just 1 monthly payment.

Yes people would look at the that house and think the people living there are lower class. No way. It is a $2 million house. They are upper class all the way.