Riviera Sales by the numbers (vs CCV) for 2019 - (Sept data added 10/10)

skier_pete

DIsney-holics Anon
Joined
Aug 17, 2006
I don't like the resale restrictions OR the point structure at Riviera. BUT - I really detest seeing DVC members slag on DVC members for buying there, or for that matter anywhere.

Let's use the example of SSR. It's not the MEMBERS fault that there is this giant pool of points that causes difficulty in booking at 7 months. Those MEMBERS that bought there are just using a what DISNEY put in place. The blame is DISNEY's.

You all know I'm a big proponent of DVC, and favor resale. But I would never, NEVER insinuate that deciding to buy direct is dumb, or buying at Riviera is dumb - as long as it is an informed decision. We all have different circumstances and different finances. Some people have incomes high enough that the difference between buying direct and resale are just not even a concern. Others of us need to find a way to save every nickel they can to afford DVC. None of us are "wrong".

This thread was started with the intention of providing a unbiased look at data on Riviera - not to start a finger-pointing excercise. Discussion is fine - but please keep it cordial and do not insult people that choose Riviera. I wouldn't want to have to have the thread closed.
 

crvetter

DIS Veteran
Joined
Nov 26, 2018
RIV Skyliner station - Again, still speculation, but why is it the ONLY one to not have an ECV/wheelchair loop? Well, they cannot charge members for the construction like they can the maintenance.... And then they built a walking path for CBR guests to use the RIV station.....
This is because of it being a pass-through station, with more minimal usage, that it would have been very cost-prohibitive to design, engineer (it isn't simply building) and build a secondary loop on a pass-through station, which has minimal ridership compared to the other 4 stations. It actually would have made the station very large (would the secondary loop only been for one direction too?) and required some sort of pedestrian crossing system over the path of the gondolas too (tunnels, or a direct crosswalk). Also it should be noted while this is named the Riviera Station, it is not a part of the Condo Assocation, thus the owners of DVC will not actually own the station or be directly responsible for the maintenance of the station (it will be built into the transportation line item). So because it isn't actually owned by Riviera Owners (unlike the pool and pool features) it shouldn't be restricted to Riviera guests and visitors only.
 

Madame

DIS Veteran
Joined
Mar 15, 2014
This is because of it being a pass-through station, with more minimal usage, that it would have been very cost-prohibitive to design, engineer (it isn't simply building) and build a secondary loop on a pass-through station, which has minimal ridership compared to the other 4 stations. It actually would have made the station very large (would the secondary loop only been for one direction too?) and required some sort of pedestrian crossing system over the path of the gondolas too (tunnels, or a direct crosswalk). Also it should be noted while this is named the Riviera Station, it is not a part of the Condo Assocation, thus the owners of DVC will not actually own the station or be directly responsible for the maintenance of the station (it will be built into the transportation line item). So because it isn't actually owned by Riviera Owners (unlike the pool and pool features) it shouldn't be restricted to Riviera guests and visitors only.
I understand all that, but it’s looking like they maybe should have added a loop there somehow.... but if you’re going to pinch pennies, the DVC resort is the place to do it. All speculation of course. Which I noted before.
 
  • crvetter

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Nov 26, 2018
    I understand all that, but it’s looking like they maybe should have added a loop there somehow.... but if you’re going to pinch pennies, the DVC resort is the place to do it. All speculation of course. Which I noted before.
    Understood, but for the purposes of others reading it should provide clarity that decisions were made based on engineering constraints of the system as opposed to exclusively "pinching-pennies." This information was gladly scraped from my reading of the Skyliner thread in the Rumor and News section of DIS. Also the accident that happened had nothing to do with missing loop, which I'm guessing is your purpose of adding the bold statement? The accident likely looks to have happened because the cabin (that got crashed into) didn't reattach to the cable on it's way out causing the rest behind it leaving the station crash/bump into it. This could have happened at any station because that part of the system is identical among all 5 stations.
     

    Madame

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 15, 2014
    Understood, but for the purposes of others reading it should provide clarity that decisions were made based on engineering constraints of the system as opposed to exclusively "pinching-pennies." This information was gladly scraped from my reading of the Skyliner thread in the Rumor and News section of DIS. Also the accident that happened had nothing to do with missing loop, which I'm guessing is your purpose of adding the bold statement? The accident likely looks to have happened because the cabin (that got crashed into) didn't reattach to the cable on it's way out causing the rest behind it leaving the station crash/bump into it. This could have happened at any station because that part of the system is identical among all 5 stations.
    I was under the impression that the system was constantly being stopped and restarted to load ecv/wheelchairs at the RIV station and that the accident happened after a restart. Is this not so?

    ETA. I read that entire thread and remember some mention of there being room to add such a loop.
     

    crvetter

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Nov 26, 2018
    I read that entire thread and remember some mention of there being room to add such a loop.
    Physically there could be room, but the constraint isn't really that alone, engineering and design/flow is likely the bigger issues. If you are more curious on the actual workings of the Riviera Station and the accident itself I would suggest asking on that thread. But the start and stop had been happening on all lines, and likely could be correlated with the accident (not sure on that point as details have been muddied on exactly what happened leading up to it) but correlation doesn't imply causation (considering none of the other lines, or stations on the Epcot line had an issue), though I admit it could be, but as you said it's speculation. Though it does appear the issue was the cabin didn't leave the station on the haul rope, failed to attach, based on comments in that thread.
     

    Madame

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 15, 2014
    Physically there could be room, but the constraint isn't really that alone, engineering and design/flow is likely the bigger issues. If you are more curious on the actual workings of the Riviera Station and the accident itself I would suggest asking on that thread. But the start and stop had been happening on all lines, and likely could be correlated with the accident (not sure on that point as details have been muddied on exactly what happened leading up to it) but correlation doesn't imply causation (considering none of the other lines, or stations on the Epcot line had an issue), though I admit it could be, but as you said it's speculation. Though it does appear the issue was the cabin didn't leave the station on the haul rope, failed to attach, based on comments in that thread.
    I believe the thread was closed, no? Unless we are talking about two different threads which is possible. I guess we'll have to wait and see if they continue allowing ECV/wheelchair loading at RIV. If it's a problem, I assume they will disallow it rather than attempting a revamp of the station.
     

    crvetter

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Nov 26, 2018

    Madame

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 15, 2014

    dmurf01

    Disney fan
    Joined
    Sep 2, 2019
    I've explained my reasoning for buying RIV direct, and mostly kept quiet with all the people who want RIV to fail. But it's getting to me. Because whether or not the "Never Riviera!" camp means to or not, the implication is that those of us who did buy RIV direct must not know what we are doing. Or that we are somehow disloyal for deciding to buy RIV direct. I don't think RIV "failing" is going to help any owners - resale, direct, grandfathered - as others on this thread are saying, there isn't going to be a rollback of the resale restrictions no matter how many current owners "boycott" RIV. The chatter and activism here isn't going to change their minds either.



    Buying RIV is not a political act, and I am not validating the restrictions by buying RIV. I certainly don't expect potential RIV resale buyers to pay "top dollar" for RIV resale and indeed, 9-10 months ago I was sure I was willing to wait for a cheap RIV resale to use exclusively at RIV. I decided I'd pay a premium (not a whole lot, actually) to have points now and another home resort in the EP/HS area because, for various reasons, we decided we would not buy either BCV or BWV, resale or direct, given the features of the resorts themselves, the layouts of the villas, the cost at the time, and years left on the contracts. (If BWV had ANY dedicated 2br, that might have been a different story).



    There are a few too many negatives in that sentence, but I guess you are saying that you believe too many RIV buyers look at their RIV direct purchases as an "investment"? I'd be curious to see how that lines up with DVC buyers in general. And the DIS might not be the best place since we are largely an echo chamber here of pretty informed owners. Which I guess gets me back to the point above - that owners here who have bought RIV direct (making an informed choice) - are insinuated to either be disloyal or dumb? I think that's the insinuation that matters - not that there exist resale buyers who seem happy to hear negative news about anything RIV-associated. There have been plenty of threads saying bad things about particular resorts ("who would ever stop at BLT" and "VGF is too snobby" are 2 threads I remember from the last couple of years), but this time feels different.


    ^^^ This, for sure. Whether I own at a particular resort or not, I want to see the system as a whole do well. That benefits all of us - all of our points are easier to rent, resale values are strong-ish if we have some major disaster, we won't lose everything, etc. It sets Disney apart from other timeshares.



    I agree! And while I know I could sell BLT and VGF now and essentially have vacationed a LOT for free lodging in the last few years, I also know that if I *have* to sell RIV anytime in the future, we are NOT going to recover anything close to what we paid. That said, given where we are in our lives and how we have planned financially, even with a financial catastrophe, we'll not need to sell RIV. (touches wood)


    At least you are self aware! 🤣

    I know this plays into the whole "big bad Disney" storyline, but if Disney can make the same amount of $ by charging more money to fewer people, does anyone think they wouldn't do that? The people who do go will have less crowds to contend with (granted, some people will always complain about crowds), and maybe they'll be happier and spend more money and come back more often.

    I've also said on these boards before, that Disney probably makes a lot of $ through financing direct contracts too; if there's a huge crash and many of their direct owners have to sell, how much do they really care? The mortgages will get paid off if the owner goes by resale, or they foreclose and they get the points back. I'm not saying I agree with this or that I think it's ok, but if you're looking at the bottom line (and they are a for profit company, last I checked), I don't think they much care if resale prices are low if they can make a big distinction between them. We may think the distinction between direct and resale is stupid (or worse), but if anything it reduces ROFR pressure for them.



    Yes. And also why the vast majority of DISers say you should "never" buy unless you are able to do so paying cash and having that much cash tied up indefinitely.

    A little background - My parents and inlaws owned RCI and other timeshares starting about 35 years ago - none of them are worth anything now and are not sellable. I think we actually agreed to just let a resale company take them rather than pay the $500/year in maintenance fees. I think my sister uses one of them from time to time, but that's about it. But, we had many years of terrific vacations all over the world with those timeshares. They were not nearly as luxurious as the DVC ones, and involved a lot of planning, sometimes years in advance, but we went to lots of places and stayed in 1-2 bedrooms where, if paying cash, we would have crammed all 4 of us into a hotel room (if we'd gone at all).
    Thank you so much for this post as it echoes many of my own feelings. We purchased at Riviera for many reasons that make the most sense for us. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I just skip past all the negativity because it just isn't helpful.
     

    DougEMG

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Aug 14, 2008
    Do I hate RIV? No, I'll wait till I stay there before I decide that. The high point charts don't make me want to stay there, but that is just cause I'm frugal. Out of all the resorts at WDW, the only one that I am one and done with is BRV. Just too camping feeling for my tastes.

    Do I hate RIV owners? No, everyone can spend their money how they see fit. Plus if we didn't have new resorts built with new owners, how would we ever get to try out new stuff. While I certainly have my favorites, I do like to change it up just for something different.

    Do I hate DVC? I'm getting there. DVC is changing and breaking the rules of the system to benefit themselves without regard to how it effects owners. Based on my understanding of how the BVTC is suppose to work, RIV should never have been allowed to join with their trading restrictions. This is why a lot of people have been expecting DVC to startup a new DVC2 so they could control exactly what owners could and couldn't do like they are doing with RIV. Then of course we have the lock-off premium increase that DVC claims is perfectly legal and which I expect will be implemented in 2020. In all likely hood, if I was looking at DVC for the first time now, I probably wouldn't buy in and the reason would be that I couldn't trust DVC to keep the rules the same over the life of the contract. Last Nov I had an accepted offer in ROFR for BLT and when the resale restrictions were announced for RIV; even though they don't effect me; I was really hoping that DVC would take my contract in ROFR.
     

    CanadaDisney05

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 20, 2017
    Those who are bickering aren't the buyers it's those who only care about reselling in the future. The complaints are not about the room sizes or how many studios just they wouldn't be able to sell in the future for a profit and nothing says you won't be able to resell so it's only about the profit/money. Nothing really to bicker about if you don't like the resort rules don't buy it why keep banging on about the same thing.
    I think the word "profit" is what people are not agreeing with you about. I don't think the majority of DISers are invested in DVC with the intention of monetary profit. That doesn't mean we are okay with our purchase to depreciate to zero immediately after purchase. Life happens, and we want the ability to exit without losing more on DVC than we would have paid in hotel costs over the duration of ownership. I mentioned it earlier in this thread (maybe it was another thread?), but DVC is essentially prepaid hotel rooms for 50 years. Therefore, it should theoretically retain proportionate value to the remaining years on the contract. There will always be outside influences that aren't under DVD's control that will influence the market value of these contracts. However, it should be there mandate to the best of their ability keep market values in line with linear depreciation. The resale restrictions are an example of DVD putting in policies that have a negative affect on the current owners investment with the sole purpose of increasing DVD's profit. There is a clear conflict of interest, and they are demonstrating that they don't care.
     

    dmurf01

    Disney fan
    Joined
    Sep 2, 2019
    Thank you for this. And thank you to kboo for all the good posts.

    Catching up on this thread, is, as usual, mind boggling.

    Like somehow I have some sort of assigned responsibility to do what a bunch of strangers want me to do or I’m validating Disney’s evil plans...

    Seriously?

    Validating what? Was there some sort of secret society pact I missed about not buying RIV if you were going to buy DVC direct?

    Where did any of us who decided to buy, end up with magic powers, forcing all resale buyers to pay to dollar? RIV contracts in resale will only sell for a price a buyer is willing to pay. We all get that, those that bought, at least on this board, bought with that risk in mind. For me... my DVC is a sunk cost. Period. The money is gone.

    There are people who only participate on the RIV threads to immediately disparage anyone who bought RIV, the resort itself, and literally seem to live to trounce on any person that might not follow some odd dogma about buying as cheaply as possible, and only buying resale, or buying most of your points resale, with maybe a few direct, (!but! only at a couple of approved SAP resorts)

    Otherwise, according to these people, you’re doing it wrong, harming all DVC owners, the product, and possibly someone’s future unborn child.

    I am excited to have bought. I waited and researched while waiting for over a decade. I am educated and understand what I bought and what risk it carries. I'll buy resale if and when I think it makes sense for *me*, the person spending the money for the product. However, when I was naively honest (always a poor choice on the internet) as to my personal reasons for RIV and how I finally hit *MY* decision that it was time for DVC over cash "win scenario", why *I* bought direct, and why RIV, my journey to that decision was taken out of context by a few posters and used to belittle *my* choice. I'm all for difference in opinion but that was just being an ***hole.

    Newsflash, not everyone buys for the same reasons.

    And I’m somehow expecting resale buyers to pay abhorrent prices for our RIV contracts??

    Nobody is expecting resale buyers to do anything. We can't force you to do anything either. Only Disney can do that. And they are doing it, so people are pissed because Disney **can** do it.

    It's also not Disney's problem. Rather, it will be my problem if/when I sell, and I bought knowing that. Apparently this is causing a gnashing of teeth that I did this with eyes wide open, but whatever.

    RIV will sell out eventually, just like SSR eventually did (and yes, I was around when that first went up for sale and they spent years begging people to buy it, partially due to the recession, with all sorts of incentives). The Mouse will make their money, one way or another and the MFs will pay to keep the resort up, regardless of who owns those points.

    Here is the thing IMHO: Disney also didn't change the product people bought WHEN they bought. All of you still have the L14, your resale savings, your access for your direct points or grandfathered resale. BUT what they did do, is wreck the system of people waiting for resale contracts to come up cheap, robust third party buy/rent/flip model and the ongoing scenarios of contract flippers selling off contracts, then using that money to upgrade by buying direct to a longer # of years for the contract, after using it for vacations, getting their initial investment plus $$ out at times ( so very cheap vacations), plus still buying cheap resale SAPs to use and get rid of at will.

    That I get is the bad taste if you had that system worked out.

    So yep, I get different points of view, but if a person says they understand what they bought, what the cost is, and what the risk is, then they really just might.

    End of the day, DVC will keep the restrictions or lift them. Bonus to me if they do, if they don't, then that is what it is.

    As far as the Hunger Games scenario DVC is developing with the restrictions, if down the line it hits 20% resale owners, I agree. But it’s not far off from the studio situation at any resort past 11 months. Or the value rooms at AKV. I can see it being insane to get time during F&W. But this whole mess is what pushed me to the guaranteed week purchase, plus direct points can still be used elsewhere.

    We need a RIV owner thread in resorts so we can enjoy the wait.
    Amen!
     

    aoconnor

    WDW Nut
    Joined
    Apr 27, 2016
    September sales report is out from DVC News. Sounds like sales were down 6% year over year but I wonder if they captured the rush of people buying 75 points at the end of the month? Maybe those deeds will post in October.

     

    CanadaDisney05

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 20, 2017
    September sales report is out from DVC News. Sounds like sales were down 6% year over year but I wonder if they captured the rush of people buying 75 points at the end of the month? Maybe those deeds will post in October.

    The transition date was Sept 17th, so I would assume they would have been captured.
     

    kboo

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Mar 10, 2014
    September sales report is out from DVC News. Sounds like sales were down 6% year over year but I wonder if they captured the rush of people buying 75 points at the end of the month? Maybe those deeds will post in October.

    That headline ... 🤦‍♀️

    Also - does anyone know what this means? Is this resale OKW that have been taken back in ROFR?

    Additionally, Disney has diverted some resources to process more than 6,600 extension documents for Disney's Old Key West Resort. These filings alone represent what Disney would normally process in a four month period. Processing this large workload may have taken priority over the normal handling of deeds in September.
     

    zavandor

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jul 22, 2011
    Since they are relying on the Deeds being recorded this is more a representation of what was sold in August as it takes about 30 days for Disney to close a contract. So the October Sales report would capture that crossing.
    But there will be also the Hurricane Dorian effect. I was at WDW the first two weeks of September and I never saw WDW so empty. Surely this hit DVC sales as well.
     

    skier_pete

    DIsney-holics Anon
    Joined
    Aug 17, 2006
    Added the numbers for September.

    Again - trying to avoid hyperbole with this thread. September is historically a slower month, but the trend of Riviera direct sales are not good for Disney, nor terrible. CCV direct sales are dropping while RIV are also dropping.

    Article mentions sales down 5% year over year, but also looking at the two:

    Sept 2019: RIV sales, 93,000 Total sales: 150,000
    Sept 2018: CCV sales, 129,000 Total sales: 157,000

    So that means a year ago, CCV was 82% of direct sales.
    This year - RIviera is only 62% of direct sales.
    (Aulani not included in either number.)

    That says that while sales are down 5%, current resort sales are down TWENTY EIGHT PERCENT.

    Current pace indicates 5-6 years to sell out the resort. Poly with a similar number of points sold out in just under 3 years.

    Again, now getting to the hypothetical - We still could be talking about the resort not being open yet....but that is a STEEP drop when the economy hasn't really softened. The fact that older resort sales are up while Riviera sales are down says a LOT about what people think of the resale restrictions.

    I've said it many times - if this trend doesn't turn around once the resort opens - I really do think Disney will revisit the resale restriction.

    That headline ... 🤦‍♀️

    Also - does anyone know what this means? Is this resale OKW that have been taken back in ROFR?

    Additionally, Disney has diverted some resources to process more than 6,600 extension documents for Disney's Old Key West Resort. These filings alone represent what Disney would normally process in a four month period. Processing this large workload may have taken priority over the normal handling of deeds in September.
    This is all the extensions that were sold back in 2010 or whenever the heck they did the OKW extensions. Yes, Disney never bothered to file them. Oops.
     

    TexasChick123

    Always Dreaming of Our Next Vacation
    Joined
    Feb 19, 2017
    Man, I hope they reverse the resale restrictions, but I just don’t see them doing it. They frequently defy logic because they refuse to admit they did something wrong. No matter how many members or potential members tell them the restriction is hurting sales, they adamantly refuse to believe it. Even if sales aren’t in the dumps, I definitely think they’d be higher without that restriction.
     

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