Questions about going into photography

[milkabum]

Well over the past few months I've really gotten into photography and I'm considering going into it when I'm older. By Christmas I'll have about $500 from saving and birthday/Christmas money and I'm willing to spend about half on a camera. If my parents do say yes, which camera would you recommend for a beginner? (I'm twelve years old so I've only been using my dad's digital camera). Any tips? TIA!

 

[Master Mason]

Well over the past few months I've really gotten into photography and I'm considering going into it when I'm older. By Christmas I'll have about $500 from saving and birthday/Christmas money and I'm willing to spend about half on a camera. If my parents do say yes, which camera would you recommend for a beginner? (I'm twelve years old so I've only been using my dad's digital camera). Any tips? TIA!

My younger boy (14) has the canon A540. It is a nice camera and has some maunal capabilities. It is in the $150 to $175 range.

Read some reviews at Steves http://www.steves-digicams.com/2006_reviews/a540.html

Also, you might think about uping you budget just a bit and looking at the Canon S2 It has much better zoom and more manual stuff if your really interested in Photography.

 

[ukcatfan]

If you are looking to purchase after X-mas, then I suggest you wait until then to decide on a model. The camera market is extremely volatile. The prices today will not be valid then. You will likely get more for your money because the prices are always going down, not up. As for a place to buy, I suggest Buydig.com, Beach Camera, B&H Photo, or Adorama. Watch out for the places that look too good because there are alot of crooks in this business. For memory, Newegg.com is a good place. The card that comes with the camera is never enough. You will likely need to buy some rechargeable batteries, but your local Wal-mart is fine for that.

Kevin

 

[jann1033]

to add to the above make sure what ever you buy has some features you need to set yourself( or rather at least have the option to) and not just all preset modes( ie fireworks, portrait, stuff like that where you just turn the dial and it sets everything for you)...like i know the canons have a mode setting that is auto but also one they call creative where you can learn to set the shutter, aperture( av,tv) and a totally manual mode where you set everything...that way you can ease your way into setting all the controls, learning what they do and how they react so when you want to get into a dslr you'll know what to do !

 

[tinksdad]

Better yet, convince your Dad that he needs a new camera and then you can "inherit" his present one........

Great goals!!! There are so many out there, that it might be tough to pick. Start with something that you can go into a bit.

 

[captaincrash]

I think...

... you can do so much with a 3MP digicam - and just about everything seems to be 3 MP or more in resolution. Just 5.5 years ago the state of the art seemed to be 3MP. I paid $900 + tax + shipping for a Canon G1 plus $450 for a 1GB IBM microdrive. Now you can buy a G1 on eBay for between $60-85 and a 4GB <FOUR gigabyte> microdrive for $35 or so. Admittedly, you have to be careful looking at 5 year old digicams off eBay - but I have purchased TWO G1s off eBay and they were both excellent!

Also... if I were you I would consider stepping up to shop for a Canon G2 or G3! A G2 (4 megapixels http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canong2/ ) sells used on eBay for $80-125 including accessories and spare batteries. make sure the seller has extremely good feedback and a record with at least 50 0r 100+ feedback entries to prove their reliability. Here is what a G2 looks like from the back... note the cool flip out and pivoting LCD screen! All for under $150 including shipping. When it breaks you can go out and buy another one with the money you'll save out of your $500 in funds and $250 in budget!!!

My point is other great bargains a clogging eBay on discontinued models. If I were you I might consider browsing DP review and selecting a discontinued model or two and scanning eBay to see what it sells for. The G1 used to be the "top of the line" in Canon's line up short of a DSLR.

Ohh.... speaking of DSLRs.... if you're willing to make some $$$ selling leamonaid or doing more chores around the house for extra allowance money ... or if you can somehow raise a little more money then you can shop for an old D30 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canond30/ or D60 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneosd60/ maybe a 300D digital rebel http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos300d/ on eBay. Of course, these will need a LENSE or two ... and they are REAL HIGH PERFORMANCE digicams. If your Dad ever wants to "borrow" it make sure you collect a rental fee. I think $10 a day or $0.05 a frame taken is sufficient. If he ever shoots 1000 images then you'll get back $50 which you can save for repairing the shutter or buying accessories (it is only good for 25-35,000 shots and will cost you $185 to replace!).

OK... so maybe the DSLR is "over the top"... but you can get one without a lense on eBay for $199-300 for a D30 or $400+ for a 300D digital rebel ... if not LESS! You can then add a lense like the 18-55 for $60 or a 28-105 f3.5-5.6 lense for maybe $135 or so. Click on the completed listings box on the left hand column AFTER your search brings up all the "digital rebel" listings under the "digital camera" catagory. Doing this brought up 3,500+ completed listings of sold DSLRs within the last 30 days!

I sold my old 300D body only for $490 about 15 months ago.

This one sole for $199 and there are 50 completed listings and about 10 active auctions currently listed.

BTW... I know you're only 12 years old but I figure you MIGHT enjoy considering the "enterprising" aspect of the eBay auction process AND other folks who are older are likely to be reading this stuff too! So my remarks are directed towards the DIS community at large (as well as you!).

 

[0bli0]

in addition to whatever digital camera you get, i highly recommend you consider picking up a Holga medium format fim camera. they're only about $20, they're made of cheap plastic, but if you can learn to shoot with one of these - you will learn photography.

what things do you like to take pictures of now?

 

[Groucho]

I'm with Captain Crash. I'd go for a higher-end used camera rather than a cheaper new camera. Besides price, you're more likely to find information about the camera on the internet for an older camera - more reviews, more real-world experiences from owners, etc.

Similar to 0bli0, if you're really serious, it's not a terrible idea to pick up a film-based SLR or similar, if you don't get a digital SLR. (Medium-format is cool but won't it be that much more expensive to buy and develop the film?) There are many good ones out there. The "classic" student camera is, of course, the Pentax K1000. It's extremely simple, rugged, and capable of beautiful photographs. They can regularly be found on eBay or locally for fairly cheap (probably $50 or less with a lens or two), and because it's completely manual (the only electronics are the needle that shows you the exposure), you will get some experience playing with F-stops, shutter speed, focus, etc. (ISO is not such an option with film since you can't just change it at any time, unlike with a digital SLR.)

Any film SLR will do, of course, but if you get one with extra features, try to run it as close to fully manual as possible. Maybe a relative has an old SLR lying around in the back of the closet that they'll let you have? You can use the digital primarily and if you have a shot that looks good on the digital, pull out the SLR to put it on film.

You may also want to set some money aside for a couple good books, or check out your local library. Older books are still valuable for learning - the basics of framing, exposure, etc have not changed in decades!

 

[0bli0]

the reason i highly recommend the holga is it really makes you stop and think. it's almost fully automatic - the shutter speed is fixed around 1/30 second and the aperture only sorta changes (supposedly between f/8 & f/11). rolls of film are not too much more than 35mm, but you will only get either 16 or 12 shots per roll. and that's the beauty of it. it's so easy to go out and fire off a few hundred pictures because you can delete them. after shooting and reviewing about 3 rolls of 120 film, you will find yourself being far more selective. you will start to compose in your head, rather than shoot-n-chimp (note: chimping is a highly technical term used to describe the sound made when one reviews shots on the LCD screen - ooh - look at that one - oh! that one turned out).

you can sorta simulate the experience on digital, but don't cheat! on a day where you're going to take photos, limit yourself to 12 pictures. set your iso to either 100 or 400. put the camera in manual mode. set the shutter speed for 1/30 and you can change your aperture between f/8 and f/11. pick a focal length and then don't adjust it (or better yet, use a prime)

if medium format really is prohibitive, then pick up a cheap manual 35mm rangefinder although it's not nearly as much fun

 

[Groucho]

That's a fair point. I was coming at it from another angle. Something like a Holga (which I am completely unfamiliar with, but based upon your description) would be good for learning the artistic side - composition, planning, etc, while a full manual 35mm SLR is good for learning the technical side - aperture, shutter speeds, focus, depth of field, etc. Both are important to becoming a more accomplished photographer.

 

[0bli0]

definitely - left brain and right brain balance!
my father (and CarolC's ) gave me a manual rangefinder when i was learning - definitely helped me grasp the relationship between aperture, shutter speed, and ISO, and different lighting conditions and how to (and when to) control DOF. from there i went to a k1000 then to various Canons.

 

[captaincrash]

the reason i highly recommend the holga is it really makes you stop and think. it's almost fully automatic - the shutter speed is fixed around 1/30 second and the aperture only sorta changes (supposedly between f/8 & f/11). rolls of film are not too much more than 35mm, but you will only get either 16 or 12 shots per roll. and that's the beauty of it. it's so easy to go out and fire off a few hundred pictures because you can delete them. after shooting and reviewing about 3 rolls of 120 film, you will find yourself being far more selective. you will start to compose in your head, rather than shoot-n-chimp (note: chimping is a highly technical term used to describe the sound made when one reviews shots on the LCD screen - ooh - look at that one - oh! that one turned out).

you can sorta simulate the experience on digital, but don't cheat! on a day where you're going to take photos, limit yourself to 12 pictures. set your iso to either 100 or 400. put the camera in manual mode. set the shutter speed for 1/30 and you can change your aperture between f/8 and f/11. pick a focal length and then don't adjust it (or better yet, use a prime)

if medium format really is prohibitive, then pick up a cheap manual 35mm rangefinder although it's not nearly as much fun

I'm with Captain Crash. I'd go for a higher-end used camera rather than a cheaper new camera. Besides price, you're more likely to find information about the camera on the internet for an older camera - more reviews, more real-world experiences from owners, etc.

Similar to 0bli0, if you're really serious, it's not a terrible idea to pick up a film-based SLR or similar, if you don't get a digital SLR. (Medium-format is cool but won't it be that much more expensive to buy and develop the film?) There are many good ones out there. The "classic" student camera is, of course, the Pentax K1000. It's extremely simple, rugged, and capable of beautiful photographs. They can regularly be found on eBay or locally for fairly cheap (probably $50 or less with a lens or two), and because it's completely manual (the only electronics are the needle that shows you the exposure), you will get some experience playing with F-stops, shutter speed, focus, etc. (ISO is not such an option with film since you can't just change it at any time, unlike with a digital SLR.)

Any film SLR will do, of course, but if you get one with extra features, try to run it as close to fully manual as possible. Maybe a relative has an old SLR lying around in the back of the closet that they'll let you have? You can use the digital primarily and if you have a shot that looks good on the digital, pull out the SLR to put it on film.

You may also want to set some money aside for a couple good books, or check out your local library. Older books are still valuable for learning - the basics of framing, exposure, etc have not changed in decades!

These are really great ideas...

... I remember my days in High School photography class. My friends shot mwith Pentax K-1000s, Canons, Olympus SLRs and I had my "snobby" black Nikon FE and 2 lenses ... a 50mm f1.4 and a vivitar 70-200 f?. I still have it although I think it was NOT working (even on manual setting 1/90th) so it needs service. I also have the MD12 motor.

Back then we rotated through many projects and developed our own black and white in the dark room. There was considerably more flexability with aperatures and speed (shutter and film generally) then with a holga and 1/30th shooting f11 or f8. I always wanted to shoot medium format but never when into it. The restriction to the holga settings would REALLY FORCE me to think about the light, composition and hold really steady OR use a tripod with every shot.

This listing was from the acual manufacturer - I think?​

Holgas seem to sell for $40-60 with shipping on eBay. I am intrigued... but am more likely to pay for a servicing on my old Nikon then buy this 120 camera. Then I would simulate the restrictions of shooting with a Holga on the Nikon or possibly my DSLR. And THAT would be tough to do given we can push to ISO 800 cleanly and shoot several hundred best resolution images at zero cost (other than estimated cost per shot towards a shutter and mirror assembly replacement on a worn out camera!).

Speaking of which... I really need to self impose restrictings on the shooting volume limits (or lack of which) I exercise. I'm gonna draw some snickers now and admit that my last "big" vacation I shot about 500 images a day! That was INSANE... as about half were during low light shows or of beaches. It's more then I expected to shoot - and technically amounts to about 1/5th to 1/6th of the shutter assembly life (25-35,000) frames. As for the mirror assembly I do not know what the actuation ife is on that.

Anyway, I did not expect to shoot that much and have already set up self imposed limits on shooting. I'm holding out for the 30D replacement which should be the stepped up 400D/Xti with a magnesium body and digic 3/and anti-dust design. THEN... I'll be holding out a little further for the thing to drop in price and... if possible... I'll wait for THAT 40d(?) to itself be replaced by a 50D so the as yet unreleased 40D will go on clearance! The idea being that it wil fall out of vogue but have everything I'm coveting. The aforementioned D3, anti-dust, and 100,000 shutter, faster low light focusing system and solid magnesium construction. AND... with my luck the 50D will have the LAST thing I'd likely covet... weather sealing! Then I'd be chafing to hold off for a 60D so I could get a shot at the 50D (weather sealed) for a clearance price!

So, technically my crystal ball has seen the 10D intro on 27 Feb 2003, the 20D intro on 19 Aug 2004, and the 30D intro on 21 Feb 2006. I'm predicting the 40D will be announced in Aug of 2007 and its' replacement (50D?) should appear in Feb of 2009. So... can I possibly hold out until 2009 to buy the D/C 40D?

Well... my 10D came out initially at $2000 and fell to a street price of $1500 in a few weeks. Then, I bought mine used on eBay in Nov of 2005 for $590 ($10 shipping and no tax). That is 33 months after intro on the 10D and about a 60% savings. I've been ucky with mine too... as I've run through 12-15,000 frames with no issues oif any kind!

The 1st digicam I ever bought was the Canon G1 at $899 ... 2-3 weeks after it was introduced. Plus about $450 for a 1GB IBM microdrive... and now on ebay these two items together (G1+ a 2 or 4 GB MD) can be had for just under $100! That's 93.4% LESS in 6 years! That's far worse then the depreciation on an automobile! So... I am shifting my timing to defer purchases on depreciating bodies and I'm making cautious investments into lenses which seem to be holding thier values better. My 70-300 IS (non-DO) has bought new from B&H at about $550 reselling for 470-530 new on eBay... and $400-530 used but with minor accessories (filter and possibly a hood worth anywhere from $15-80). ..... And as for my other lenses, they were all bought used on eBay and can be resold for what I paid. The 70-300 was too new when I bought it and very few were on eBay - so I elected to buy from a reliable source.

Anyways... your best bet IMHO is to borrow a film SLR or repcreate the limitations of a Holga. And try checking the library for photography DVDs on FREE RENTAL. I just checked one out from our local library. And if your local library does not have any then ask the librarian to assit you in locating something cimilar in print or on DVD or video at an alternative branch library. It's so much fun exploring the tremendous creative and technical range of possibility available to you through photography. Plus, if nothing less... then you'll have a wonderful library of images from your life through YOUR eye from age 12 on up! I have lots of photos from my photography class days in high school and otherwise would have few visual memories that could rival the vivid accuracy of a half dozen photos from the time!

IE... the "fun" images you shoot now at age 12 will someday be incredibly priceless to you when you're older. AND, may I suggest you GUARD your collection against your parents who might filter them for use in a wedding reception video some day! LOL! I'm just kidding of course... except for the 5% most embarassing photos you may one day snap of yourself! Yes... photos of yourself! Those were some of the truly "fun" images I used to take with a tripod. One image I shot in high school was of myself appearing to be run over by construction equipment that was actually parked with me just clowning around with a tripod! Get my drift?

Don't try this at home ... unless you're using photoshop!​

 

[Groucho]

I actually used the old K1000 a little last night at a birthday party... it has such a wonderful mechanical feel to it - very much a "tool" rather than a "toy".

It also brings me back to the times of having to wait until you actually finish out the roll before even sending them out for development...

 

[manning]

I think...

... you can do so much with a 3MP digicam - and just about everything seems to be 3 MP or more in resolution. Just 5.5 years ago the state of the art seemed to be 3MP. I paid $900 + tax + shipping for a Canon G1 plus $450 for a 1GB IBM microdrive. Now you can buy a G1 on eBay for between $60-85 and a 4GB <FOUR gigabyte> microdrive for $35 or so. Admittedly, you have to be careful looking at 5 year old digicams off eBay - but I have purchased TWO G1s off eBay and they were both excellent!

Also... if I were you I would consider stepping up to shop for a Canon G2 or G3! A G2 (4 megapixels http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canong2/ ) sells used on eBay for $80-125 including accessories and spare batteries. make sure the seller has extremely good feedback and a record with at least 50 0r 100+ feedback entries to prove their reliability. Here is what a G2 looks like from the back... note the cool flip out and pivoting LCD screen! All for under $150 including shipping. When it breaks you can go out and buy another one with the money you'll save out of your $500 in funds and $250 in budget!!!

My point is other great bargains a clogging eBay on discontinued models. If I were you I might consider browsing DP review and selecting a discontinued model or two and scanning eBay to see what it sells for. The G1 used to be the "top of the line" in Canon's line up short of a DSLR.

Ohh.... speaking of DSLRs.... if you're willing to make some $$$ selling leamonaid or doing more chores around the house for extra allowance money ... or if you can somehow raise a little more money then you can shop for an old D30 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canond30/ or D60 http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneosd60/ maybe a 300D digital rebel http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos300d/ on eBay. Of course, these will need a LENSE or two ... and they are REAL HIGH PERFORMANCE digicams. If your Dad ever wants to "borrow" it make sure you collect a rental fee. I think $10 a day or $0.05 a frame taken is sufficient. If he ever shoots 1000 images then you'll get back $50 which you can save for repairing the shutter or buying accessories (it is only good for 25-35,000 shots and will cost you $185 to replace!).

OK... so maybe the DSLR is "over the top"... but you can get one without a lense on eBay for $199-300 for a D30 or $400+ for a 300D digital rebel ... if not LESS! You can then add a lense like the 18-55 for $60 or a 28-105 f3.5-5.6 lense for maybe $135 or so. Click on the completed listings box on the left hand column AFTER your search brings up all the "digital rebel" listings under the "digital camera" catagory. Doing this brought up 3,500+ completed listings of sold DSLRs within the last 30 days!

I sold my old 300D body only for $490 about 15 months ago.

This one sole for $199 and there are 50 completed listings and about 10 active auctions currently listed.

BTW... I know you're only 12 years old but I figure you MIGHT enjoy considering the "enterprising" aspect of the eBay auction process AND other folks who are older are likely to be reading this stuff too! So my remarks are directed towards the DIS community at large (as well as you!).

I still have my G-1. Great lens and great pictures!!

 

[captaincrash]

I still have my G-1. Great lens and great pictures!!

Yeah...

... I think I paid top dollar for my 1st G1 but it took pretty good pictures most of the time. When it didn't it was because the conditions were really quite challenging. As in low light inside a theater or the subject was fleeting in nature ... as in shooting the kids at play!

Below are a few pix from the old G1. THe top two are from Alaska taken through the plexiglas canopy of a float plane. The next two were of the plane after we landed. These were some of the last shots with the G1 as "primary digicam" as after this Alaskan cruise on the NCL Sky 3 years ago I would switch to a Digital Rebel. That 1st G1 took near 20,000-24,000 frames over the 3+ years of use I gave it! Since then the original G1 was damaged by a child who "borrowed" it for a few minutes. I then replaced it with another G1 bought 2nd hand on eBay as a backup to the digital rebel. I think I paid $150 or so for the "back up" G1. Now I carry an SD400 as a backup to the 10D... and the ditial rebel was sold on eBay a couple of years ago.

Below are 2 photos from Paris almost 7 years ago. My spouse was carrying our 1st child at the time so we were trying to get out and travel a bit before the kids complicated our vacation capabilities. On the left is the Latin Quarter and on the right is shot taken somewhere in the Paris Metro. These were among the very first few shots I took with the G1!

And below a couple shots from the 1st time I used a borrowed digital camera... an old Epson 800 with 1.25 MP... I got by on a 32 MB CF card shooting about 60-65 frames including a small internal cache. THe digicam cost my buddy about $400 for the camera alone! On that trip I took just over 800 shots over a 10 day cruise on the Rennisance R4 in Tahiti. On this trip my spouse was only a few months pregnant and we had just announced that we were expecting. THAT was a bargain voyage at $999pp + port and taxes for the trip including airfare from LA! That little digicam convinced me that there were real savings to be had with a digital camera and I estimated that the value of those 800 photos were comparable to my having shot 30 rolls of 36 (= 1,080 shots to get 800 decent shots and maybe 150-250 good ones). Now... 30 rolls of 36 with processing and double prints was comparable to $22 x 30 = $660. So... I thought it would be OK to spend $899 on a G-1 and $480 on a 1 gig Microdrive PLUS another $500 or so in accessories.... as I would "break even after about 2000 frames. So considering I've taken 20-24,000 shots with the G1 I've actually saved a ton compared to shooting film. Of course, on the other hand it never occurred to me that these two components (G1 + Microdrive) would be selling together for under $100 in about 6 years!