Question for Run/Walkers

[Tabetha]

Start fast = you run out of gas
Start slow = leave plenty of GO!

That was my philosophy. I had to really dig in my heels when we were heading into the Princess. I'd done all my training run/walk and found that a 2/1 ratio @ 13.30ish was comfortable for me. I felt like I could finish with that.

My husband, on the other hand, can run the whole 13.1, without stopping. Great for him! However, he wanted to run with me for the Princess - something we could do together. Very sweet. But he thought I should try running longer and walking faster. Like I said, I dug in my heels. I said, "I know myself, I know what I can do, and I think I can finish with these intervals being my top end".

He has become a believer.

We got through that half so comfortably (ran the 2nd half faster than the 1st half and finished with energy for a sprint), I know we can beat our time for the Disneyland, but we have to do some tinkering to figure out how fast I can go.

But first I have to recover from achilles tendinitis brought on by a stupid wrong pair of shoes.

 

[yulilin3]

Sometimes your mind wants to go faster than your body and that is how you hurt yourself. I became a walker/runner recently (this past January) did my first 5K in Feb. The Royal Family 5K and following Jeff Galloway's plan I finished with energy to spare. I do 1/1 and I'm registered for the Tower of Terror 10 miler and will do Jeff's program to train for that. His program is 3 runs a week. 1 on Tues. and 1 on Thurs. for 30 min. only, this is to play and try with the different ratios and see what's more comfortable. The weekend run is the long one where you put the ratios you've practiced during the week to work.
As you can see, he gives time for the muscles to recuperate, which is very important.
You can find Galloway's program on the run disney sight, he has one for the half marathon, the marathon and the 10-miler.

 

[Rose&Mike]

I was just throwing the electrolyte imbalance out there, because I am one of the "cans." Electrolyte imbalance can be caused by a whole host of things including malnutrition--which doesn't even have to mean you are rail thin. It was causing all kinds of problems for me. So while, yes I agree, that most of the time it is undertraining, sometimes it is something else and we all need to pay attention to hydration and electrolytes.

I ran near Jeff Galloway for a huge part of the Princess. I did a 4:1 and he was doing the 40:20. I think the smaller intervals work, but I am not a big fan of starting and stopping.

I think there is an interval out there for everyone. You just have to find what works best for you.

 

[dcr]

But first I have to recover from achilles tendinitis brought on by a stupid wrong pair of shoes.

Don't be too quick to blame the shoes. Did you successfully train in the same shoes? If so, you were probably over striding. The rush of the event, maybe going a bit faster than you would normally run, being pushed just a little bit by your husband, all could contribute to a slightly longer stride.

If you wear a Garmin, a foot pod is a fantastic tool. You can track the baseline cadence for a particular pace throughout your training. If you run a little faster, and your cadence is quicker, then you are in the ball park. But if you run just a little bit faster, and don't see your cadence picking up, your feet didn't get faster and you compensated by lengthening your stride.

 

[dragitoff]

In that case, I would bet the farm that you are going too fast, too soon, and probably too often. But without a baseline and a plan, everything is a complete shot in the dark.

For the record, I did have a plan. I just wasn't following a Galloway or other type of run/walk plan. I was doing the same type training each week. It was MY plan. I didn't just go out there and run a half. I worked hard getting prepped for it for months. I don't disagree that I might have been going too fast; however my training times for my long runs of 12-13 miles were right on target with my desired time of 9mm. That's where I got my baseline. Just two weeks before the half, I ran 13.1 miles during a training run in 2:01:23. I was aiming for a slightly better time than I had gotten during practice runs, but I've always done better on race day than my practice runs usually would have indicated. This was a rare instance where that was different.

 

[dcr]

For the record, I did have a plan. I just wasn't following a Galloway or other type of run/walk plan. I was doing the same type training each week. It was MY plan. I didn't just go out there and run a half. I worked hard getting prepped for it for months. I don't disagree that I might have been going too fast; however my training times for my long runs of 12-13 miles were right on target with my desired time of 9mm. That's where I got my baseline. Just two weeks before the half, I ran 13.1 miles during a training run in 2:01:23. I was aiming for a slightly better time than I had gotten during practice runs, but I've always done better on race day than my practice runs usually would have indicated. This was a rare instance where that was different.

Running a half, at pace, two weeks before, is a classic "too fast - too much". Long runs aren't the time for speed.

The really cool thing about running is that there is no rule book that we have to follow. We can do as we please, and live or die by our decisions. It is a totally free expression. With that being said, I find it most prudent to take the wisdom of those who have done it and studied it for years, and incorporate that knowledge into my training. But that's just me.

 

[dragitoff]

Running a half, at pace, two weeks before, is a classic "too fast - too much". Long runs aren't the time for speed.

The really cool thing about running is that there is no rule book that we have to follow. We can do as we please, and live or die by our decisions. It is a totally free expression. With that being said, I find it most prudent to take the wisdom of those who have done it and studied it for years, and incorporate that knowledge into my training. But that's just me.

It would be great if you actually took the time to read people's post before you jump on them like you're the running expert of the world. I've been running 12-13 miles for MANY MONTHS now. I didn't just run it one time 2 weeks before the race. I worked my way up to that pace. I started off with a 5/1 ratio and then built my way up to a 9/1. I was able to maintain that ratio and whittle down my pace to nearly 9mm. My last long run of 13.1 miles was 2 weeks prior to the race and I completed it very near my goal time for the race.

I don't know who you are, but every post I see from you comes off as condescending and arrogant. Maybe you're some world class runner, but it seems as though you're just a know-it-all. Maybe you're not trying to come across that way, but honestly it's how you're coming across. But that's just me.

 

[dcr]

It would be great if you actually took the time to read people's post before you jump on them like you're the running expert of the world. I've been running 12-13 miles for MANY MONTHS now. I didn't just run it one time 2 weeks before the race. I worked my way up to that pace. I started off with a 5/1 ratio and then built my way up to a 9/1. I was able to maintain that ratio and whittle down my pace to nearly 9mm. My last long run of 13.1 miles was 2 weeks prior to the race and I completed it very near my goal time for the race.

I don't know who you are, but every post I see from you comes off as condescending and arrogant. Maybe you're some world class runner, but it seems as though you're just a know-it-all. Maybe you're not trying to come across that way, but honestly it's how you're coming across. But that's just me.

Excuse me, and sorry that you took my posts with that tone. I did read all of your posts, and I almost did not reply because your posts came off to me the same way. That is the problem with short, written words, without face to face interaction. Peace and run!

 

[Rose&Mike]

dragitoff--one thing that might be worth trying, is to increase your long run distance and slow down your time. Galloway is a huge advocate of running long runs at ~2m/m slower than race pace. And when running for time he pushes you to go past the race distance. I want to say the half marathon plan goes up to 15 miles. I'm sure someone will correct me if I am giving the wrong numbers here.

I have a hard time mentally slowing down by 2 minutes per mile, but I do cut back for my long runs.

Currently we are running the short runs with no intervals--between 30 and 45 minutes. The temps have really shot up here, so we will cut back and work back up to the 45.

My long run this weekend I am going to try a 3/30 since it is going to be warm and try to slow down to 10:30 to 11:00 per mile average. My goal for my half in 6 weeks is under 10:00 min per mile.

Anyhow, one thing I have figured out the hard way is to take cut back weeks and to try to slow down for the long runs. I am not always very good at it, but I run with Mike and usually one of is in a slow down a bit mood, so that helps sometimes.

And all you finish line sprinters--I am right there with you. I think for me it is a mental thing, and not a having too much left in the gas tank. I know no matter how hard I run I will be done in xxx yards. So I dig deep. When we train we have a spot where we always finish that we know exactly where 4tenths of a mile is. We call it running to the bench. I always run hard to the bench, no matter how tired I am, so during the race, once I have it in my head to "run to the bench" there is no stopping me.

Good luck with figuring out your intervals. It's a fun experiment, in my opinion.

 

[Tabetha]

Don't be too quick to blame the shoes. Did you successfully train in the same shoes? If so, you were probably over striding. The rush of the event, maybe going a bit faster than you would normally run, being pushed just a little bit by your husband, all could contribute to a slightly longer stride.

Yeah - I trained for 3 months in those shoes - and had problems from day one. Originally I thought the shoes were just stiff and rubbing my heel/achilles, but over time it occurred to me that the shoes were making things worse. I actually bought a new pair of shoes 2 weeks before the Half (I know, normally bad, but I'd tried to do our 14 mile training run in the shoes I was training in and I got 3 miles and was in so much pain I had to stop. I put on the new shoes and immediately felt the difference.) If it weren't for the fact that I bought the shoes in Chicago and I was working on a ship out of Miami, I would have returned the shoes immediately. But I ignored the problem, cause I didn't really know any better.

On race day, I ran my pace steady (helped out by my new Garmin) and the pain in my achilles after 13.1 was no-where near what I felt at mile 3 of my failed training run. I LOVE my new shoes. All day long in those things.

If you wear a Garmin, a foot pod is a fantastic tool. You can track the baseline cadence for a particular pace throughout your training. If you run a little faster, and your cadence is quicker, then you are in the ball park. But if you run just a little bit faster, and don't see your cadence picking up, your feet didn't get faster and you compensated by lengthening your stride.

I'm gonna grab one of those doohickeys. They sound amazing. Plus, I'm going back to working on a ship next month, so I'll need it for all that running on the treadmill I'll be doing.

 

[fashionista311]

another option if you aren't using a strict galloway plan is to check out the mcmillan running calc. i found his race predictions to be pretty spot on...

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/index.php/site/calculator
based on you 2:01:23 (i know it was done in training but i take it was a still a PR) - your race pace was 9:16 min/mile and you should be doing your long runs in the 10:17-11:17 min/mile range.

another big running expert - pete pfitzinger - likes long runs to be 10-20% slower than race pace. i'm pretty bad at math, but i think at your pace, that would be a little less than a minute slower than your race pace (so maybe around 10 min/mile?)

so there is some flexibility if you don't want to jump on the galloway bandwagon.

also - a big part of moving from goals of "just finishing" a race to "racing" a race is learning how to gauge effort. it's tough! i've been running seriously for a little over 3 years, and i'm still working on it myself. for example - this past jan, i ran a 10k and my goal was to break 55 mins, or around a 8:50 min/mile. i ran the first mile way too fast at 8:20 min/mile (including a major uphill) and thought la-la-la this is race pace, i can totally hang on to this for another 5 miles! yeah...didn't happen. i blew up and came in at 56 mins

anyways, i guess my point is, it does take some trial and error to figure out all this pacing stuff. running shorter races (10Ks are great for the half marathon distance because you get a good blend of speed and endurance) can help you figure it out.

 

[RunRookie]

Just going to throw something out there...

I read some race statistics regarding health incidents during races (like heart attacks, etc.) and if I remember correctly, most of the incidents where runners had heart attacks or other events tended to be in the last 800 meters of the race. Meaning, those last all out 'pushes' at the end of the race were causing the body to do things that perhaps it was no longer able to do at that point in time.

Now, I totally do the same thing. I see that finish line and I want to finish strong, almost like to prove to the race that it did not dominate me. But that study did make me take pause...

Just my two cents.... hee hee

 

[MikeofRose&Mike]

That, coupled with the start of my full marathon training (for January 2013 at WDW) has me readdressing my training plan. When I trained for the half, I trained running 9 minutes and walking 1 and my target time was a 9mm (roughly-I was closer to 9:15, but it's easier to track 9 flat)

My thoughts on my long runs and my half marathon is that it seems to take forever to get to my walk break and they last such a short time. I've tried a few shorter (4-5 mile) runs with a new strategy to address that and my fatigue and cramping issues faced in my last race. I've started running 4 minutes and walking 1 and using a target pace of 10mm. So far, I've been running much quicker than the 10mm pace; however I feel so much more refreshed while running and following my runs. I also run much faster during my running times. This Saturday, I'll do a nice 10-12 mile run using this strategy.

I was just curious if there are any other run/walkers out there that have changed your strategy for a race and had success/failures with it. I've got plenty of time to adjust to my new strategy and scrap it if I don't like it and still train for the full in January. I'm just trying to take care of myself and prevent injury while pushing myself further than I ever thought I could. Heck, I've already done that. After losing 50lbs. and keeping it off for over a year and running 30 miles per week for a better part of a year now, I'm already doing more than I thought I could. Now, I want to maintain and grow that number in a safe manner.

I've had some luck with changing intervals. I first ran a half without intervals at 2:03.
For the next race I added in walk breaks at 1 minute per mile. It was easy to do since I just used the mile markers,
For my next race I ran a 4:30/30 pace at 1:54, and afterwards I thought I was fatigued at the end and should be at a smaller walk/run. I am currently training for a full at 3:00/:30.
I think since Galloway feels free to keep trying new ratio's there is no reason you can't. It seems like people keep trying shorter intervals. Good luck finding one that works you.


Mike

 

[dragitoff]

Thanks for all the great feedback! I wish I had of found this site before I started my running experience; however I didn't, so I've been doing what has felt right for the past year or so of running and went from running virtually no distance to running a half marathon. It probably has taken me alot longer than if I had of used a proven plan, but I honestly didn't know about running plans until I was already running 8 miles on my long runs and running 5-6 days per week.

Since I've slowed my pace down for the 4/1 ratio, I think this will certainly help me be better prepared for my next race. I'm going to use all this new found knowledge to keep my self healthy and ready for my first full in January. I'd love to run another 1/2 if I can find one that's close by and fits my schedule. I really can't do any races September-December because it's the busy time of year for me at work and I can't go out of town that time of year or I'd do the Wine & Dine.

 

[johde]

I've had some luck with changing intervals. I first ran a half without intervals at 2:03.
For the next race I added in walk breaks at 1 minute per mile. It was easy to do since I just used the mile markers,
For my next race I ran a 4:30/30 pace at 1:54, and afterwards I thought I was fatigued at the end and should be at a smaller walk/run. I am currently training for a full at 3:00/:30.
I think since Galloway feels free to keep trying new ratio's there is no reason you can't. It seems like people keep trying shorter intervals. Good luck finding one that works you.


Mike

I would also agree about changing things up. I use a different ratio for almost every workout. For long runs, I've been using some variation of 1/1, :45/:45; for speed work, I've done 2:30/1, 2:00/1, 1:20/:40 and straight running; One easy days, I've been doing a ladder of :30/45 for a mile, bumping to :45/:45 for a mile, then finish at 1:00/45; in my last 5K I did run 5:00/walk :40; and I try to do straight running at least 1 day a week. The goal is to match the interval to the type of workout you're doing, and then over time tweak it.

Galloway recommended run/walk ratios are just that recommended starting points. Beyond that, in general for longer races, 10 miler or longer, he recommends walk intervals of shorter than 1 minute and run intervals of shorter than 5 minutes. So, instead of doing 10/1 he would recommend do something like 5/:30.

 

[paxsarah]

I only have my own experience to speak from - since October 2010, I've done three half marathons, a full marathon, plus the 2012 Goofy races using run/walk. My half marathon PR was last October, and I trained for months moving from a 3/1 ratio eventually to a 4/1 ratio and finished in 2:04 (a 22 minute improvement over one year earlier).

I'll also say that during my training for that race, I did run my "short long runs" (no more than 6-7 miles) at race pace pretty frequently, but I always took my longest runs at an easier pace. I never went the full race distance at race pace prior to the race day. While I'm a strong advocate of doing some work at race pace to get an idea for what that pace should feel like, I'm also an advocate of keeping the "slow" in "long slow distance" for the long runs.

One more thing is that I whether I was doing a shorter race-pace run, or longer slow runs, my ratio was the same - taking my runs faster or slower was a function of my running pace, not my walk/run ratio. My guess is that your pace will naturally improve using the "slower" 4/1 ratio as you dial into what running pace at that ratio is comfortable to you. I would suggest trying to keep your weekly long runs at a slower, conversational pace, and using one of your other shorter runs during the week to test your race pace at that same 4/1 ratio. And you have tons of time - you can experiment with other ratios just to see how they work for you, and repeat until something really clicks.

 

[dragitoff]

Just a brief update. I employed my new ratio of 4/1 and had great success! I finished my 14 mile run in 2:17:23 and felt great afterwards. I felt like I could have easily done another mile or two (at least), but I had to stop when I did so we could drive to Atlanta for my SIL's baby shower. I was a little concerned about having to drive 3+ hours afterwards, but I had no ill effects from the run. The 4/1 ratio so far is getting a big from me!

On a side note, I found out earlier in the week that the Georgia Marathon was yesterday and the starting line was right in front of our hotel window. Had I known about it a little sooner, I could have just ran in that for my long run and still not interfered with any of our trip. It was exciting looking out my window at the 14,000 runners at the starting line (since we certainly couldn't sleep with all that commotion going on right outside our hotel room window).

 

[DrMomof3]

I've been playing around with my Galloway intervals as I try for a PR at my upcoming half marathon in April. For the January marathon I did a 1:1 ratio but I'm training at a 2:1 ratio for my half. I'm hoping for a 2:30 time and, according to Galloway, my ideal ratio is 2:1. The race is 2+ loops in Central Park and I can't decide if I should start with a 1:1 for the 1st loop and then go to a 2:1 for the 2nd loop or just stick with a 2:1 for the whole thing....
I did my most recent 12 mile run at 13:30 pace as a 1:1 (I wasn't feeling great that day so I decreased my interval). I have a 14 mile run scheduled for next weekend and I'm going to try a 2:1 and see how it goes.

Amanda