public school "supplies" vs. "teaching materials"

[aprilgail2]

Espically is NO one is required to take a class where the graphing calculator is involved. if it's a choice to take the class it should be up to the idividual to buy it!

Perhaps it is not required where YOU live but here it is required that they take the class and it is required that you purchase the calculator.

 

[snowy76]

Good luck finding that math teacher.
I don't know if you realize, but there is a huge shortage of math and science teachers in the schools. Many of the teachers now teaching math and science started out teaching PE. My DD's Algebra teacher last year was an English teacher who hated math, yet she was teaching an honor's class where the majority of the kids knew more than she did. She was a very nice lady though.

Did your DD have my calculus teacher????

She was an English teacher originally but they offered to help her pay to get certified in math b/c there was a shortage back in the 80s. I had this teacher in 1993-94 for AP Calculus. (And as someone mentioned, no graphing calculators allowed on the exam back then... I never bought one and never needed one... if you are good enough at calculations you can work very quickly!)

 

[snowy76]

I'm curious as to what your argument is as to why calculators degrade mathematics education.

I don't want to answer for bicker, but this made me think of when I have tried to teach students to proofread essays they've typed on a computer.
They want to know why they need to, when there is spell check and grammar check.

I think most kids want to get their answer down quickly, and don't really care about the process behind it. They believe (not consciously per se, but show it in their actions) that a machine knows better than the human brain.

Since the rules of mathematics have not changed in the last couple of thousand years, I don't see the argument some have made that today's math is more complex and therefore needs a graphing calculator. Not for high school at least. It's too bad states require it -- because I don't think it necessarily leads to smarter kids, which is what the drive for state standards is all about.

 

[VioltePrincess]

Yes, that's what I was suggesting: Not only no longer REQUIRING them, but actually PROHIBITING them. That obviates the problem completely.

yeah. and then we can all use an abacus to do calculations, right?

you're a luddite, bicker. you do realize, of course, that in 10-20 years we won't even have textbooks...my dd's spend a lot of time doing research in their various subjects on the internet instead of in the library.

10 years ago my job was done with a telephone and a typewriter. now it's done with a computer and a fax machine. welcome to the 21 century.

 

[VioltePrincess]

My point exactly. It is not necessary yet so why is it REQUIRED? Every parent in my school district MUST shell out over $100 for one of these things per child as soon as the child takes Algebra and then they REQUIRE that these things be used in class and on tests. Manual computation is discouraged.

in or school, the entire class is expected to buy the same make and model of calculator, so the teacher can instruct the students in the use of the calculator beofre the kids need to use it.

we had to buy a $30 calculator for middle school math, and a graphing calculator for high school math.

 

[MrsPete]

I think those "video games" you speak of are simple, low-quality b&w games or text-based gemes-- like say b&w tetris. I'm sure kids enjoy playing these games at school if they can get away with it, since they are bored and always enjoy finding new and exciting ways of "breaking the rules". But these are really not the sort of games that would provide a huge draw for modern kids. Just so people aren't confused about this point.

Despite the low "cool factor", the kids in my classroom LOVE these games. I have had to confiscate calculators in my class (not math), and the kids were upset that I stopped their Tetris tournament.

It may be the novelty factor -- Wow! I can play games with this calculator! -- but the kids DO like these games.

 

[themarquis]

I don't want to answer for bicker, but this made me think of when I have tried to teach students to proofread essays they've typed on a computer. They want to know why they need to, when there is spell check and grammar check.

Yeah, I'll agree with you there. I used to teach freshman comp (college students). I did get to the point where I had to lecture them about the evils of grammar checkers, because they produced ludicrous sentences. Spell checkers -- well, sometimes the students would end up with very strange words inserted into their essays, because the spell checker thought, for example, "augment" or "ragman" was a good re-spelling for "argment" (argument). Many of them were not dilligent about doing any final editing that would have caught such "clicking" errors.

The thing is, though, that I use spell check myself ... I love spell check... and I really think it saves me a lot of time and effort and helps my writing. I don't have serious spelling issues, but I do miss a word from time to time. I'd much rather have a program pop up instantly with alternate spellings than have to look everything up (which can take a long time). And ... though I do HATE grammar check, I do use it every once in a while. 'Course most of what it tells me is nonsense, but I can distinguish between the sense and nonsense, which my students had a tough time with.

Basically, I'd agree with you completely that spell/grammar check software can be dangerous when a student is not proficient with writing/spelling. I would never, for example, want a second grader to be dependent upon a spell checker, and in fact it would be fine with me if all adults tried to disguise the very existence of spell checkers from second graders! On the other hand, a high school or college student who is DONE WITH learning to spell (which is not to say they are good spellers but that no more time is going to be wasted on spelling in the curriculum) should go right ahead and use spell checker, IMO. HS teachers might want to devote a lesson or two to instructing kids on how to distinguish between good and bad uses of spell checker (it usually doesn't take a genius or an excellent speller, just patience and editing skills). In the case of grammar checking software, I would not advocate most HS or early college students using it since they are usually NOT done with learning grammar and writing (sad as that may be; I used to cry over some of my students papers) and in fact that is one of the tasks of freshman comp. Once they are more advanced with their writing, I'm sure they'd be able to use grammar check intelligently (or decide not to, as the case may be -- the software is TERRIBLE). If they continue to fail to use grammar check intelligently after this point, then their chance to learn to write is over, there is little anyone can do, and we can all just cross our fingers they go into some career where they never have to pick up a pen again. At this point, whether they used grammar check or not, their writing would be awful.

In the case of math, all HS students who are not taking remedial or everyday/practical math courses are DONE WITH arithmetic. They have learned arithmetic for the last six to eight years. Like with spelling, some are not as proficient as others, but it is not the task of college-prep level HS teachers to re-teach them arithmetic. A calculator at this point, like spell checker for HS level and grammar checker for middle/late college level is totally age-appropriate as a tool that can be used effectively and in fact will be an aid to learning. Some classroom time will be devoted to instructing students how to best use their calculators, how to check their work, how to avoid common errors, etc. But at this point, they will be on their own to use or misuse their calculators.

I do not agree with some posters that calculators THEMSELVES cause learning deficiencies. Some kids misuse their calculators; usually these are the same kids who struggle with their math anyway. If there are big problems with math instruction in this country like some posters claim (which in any case would be a sweeping generalization) it is not caused by calculators. I don't know if any of you have seen these , but there are a bunch of studies that have been done of calculator and non-calculator using classrooms (classrooms randomly divided into two or three groups -- and either barred from calculator use, encouraged and instructed in calculator use, or allowed (but not encouraged) to use calculators). The students encouraged to use calculators did better on exams (even when barred from using their calculators on these exams) and had better attitudes toward and enthusiasm about math. Hmm....

 

[bicker]

Interesting. My memory is a little shaky, now that I'm getting older, but, despite not even being able to afford a calculator back then, and therefore not having one, I don't remember having any trouble doing high school math, including calculus (which doesn't require a calculator at all).

I'm curious as to what your argument is as to why calculators degrade mathematics education.

Just curious: Did you read my message?

 

[SplshMtnLvr28]

My school must be way behind on math, because you don't need a graphing calculator until Algebra II. Algebra I and Geometry don't need them.

 

[bicker]

you're a luddite, bicker.

I'm a software developer, responsible for a very sophisticated system that replaces people with automation. I'm about as far from being a Luddite as anyone.

What shocks me in this thread is how beholden some people seem to be to calculators. Those who think calculators have anything to with mathematics -- well -- obviously don't hold MS degrees in Mathematics.

 

[shortbun]

Good grief! We're an inner city urban school system and at my son's school, we run out of our allottment of paper by the holiday break. After that, parents bring copy paper in. We also ante up a supply fee AND bring in a whole bag full of 'school supplies' at the beginning of the year. This year, my son's teacher is new to the school so we solicited a local bookstore to bring in an author and an illustrator for book sales and signing where the profits went directly to our fund and bought books for the classroom that had no large collection of reading material. I'm sure *I* will be buying my son's supplies right through graduation regardless of who says what about who should pay.

 

[themarquis]

Just curious: Did you read my message?

You might wish to review your posts on this thread.

Post 1: calculators should be prohibited.
Post 2: calculators aren't necessary.
Post 3: calculators should be prohibited.
Post 4: calculators should be prohibited.

Lets see... have I missed anything? Nope...

My question was why/how are calculators are problematic and why/how do they degrade math education. You have stated (repeatedly) that they should be prohibited, not why.

 

[VioltePrincess]

I'm a software developer, responsible for a very sophisticated system that replaces people with automation. I'm about as far from being a Luddite as anyone.

What shocks me in this thread is how beholden some people seem to be to calculators. Those who think calculators have anything to with mathematics -- well -- obviously don't hold MS degrees in Mathematics.

nor do we need MS degrees in math...or the skills that og along with that degree.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

nor do we need MS degrees in math...or the skills that og along with that degree.

Simple arithmetic is a skill that anyone needs.

I think he is arguing (And I kind of agree)--that super advanced calculators are not a true NEED to do the work. Maybe they make understanding easier.


But to say that the work cannot be done without those specific calculators is a falsehood.

One needn't a math degree to do advanced math with anything more than a calculator that will help prevent computation errors and includes cos/sin/ln/log etc. I.e. using the simplest calculator for the skill level...I didn't need scientific calculator until trig. Before then a dime store contraption would do.

FTR--I don't know how you do the cos/sin/ln/log and high level square roots and powers without a calculator.

 

[bicker]

You might wish to review your posts on this thread.
...
Lets see... have I missed anything? Nope...

Yes, you did. Read your message again, and you'll see that none of my messages said anything close to your misinterpretation.

You have stated (repeatedly) that they should be prohibited, not why.

That should have been obvious but I'll spell it out for you: to resolve the problem presented in the OP (folks or schools having to purchase calculators). That is what we're here in this thread discussing, isn't it?

 

[bicker]

nor do we need MS degrees in math...or the skills that og along with that degree.

It sure helps. Most people confuse arithmatic and mathematics. Only after you see where the subject is going does it become clear that adding and subtracting is only a distraction from the true power of mathematics.

 

[VioltePrincess]

Yes, you did. Read your message again, and you'll see that none of my messages said anything close to your misinterpretation.

That should have been obvious but I'll spell it out for you: to resolve the problem presented in the OP (folks or schools having to purchase calculators). That is what we're here in this thread discussing, isn't it?

but the NYS Board of Regents -- those nice men and women with Ed.D and Ph.D after their names -- who make policy for the state -- have decided that knowing how to use a calculator is an essential part of education in the 21st century. the question I posed is who should pay for it.

 

[VioltePrincess]

It sure helps. Most people confuse arithmatic and mathematics. Only after you see where the subject is going does it become clear that adding and subtracting is only a distraction from the true power of mathematics.

a little personal history here...


I graduated from high school in 1978. I took 3 years of math -- algebra, geometry and trigonometry, and dropped out of precalculus. scored a 650 on the math section of the SAT. in those days colleges did not require liberal arts students to take math, so I didn't. still managed to get a BA and a JD.

I have a deep appreciation for what mathematics can accomplish, but I have had no personal need to know any of the math I learned 30 years ago. I cannot help my daughters with their math homework, I have long since forgotten 90% of what I learned.

you want kids to continue to leanr math, to go beyond the minimal requirements for high school/college graduation, give them the tools that make math more interesting. if technology is involved, the kids are more likely to remain interested -- as I said earlier, my daughters use the computer rather than do their researchi in the library, and use their graphing calculators in both math and science classes. I don't see a prolbem in that.

 

[bicker]

The Regents should rethink the extent to which that skill is necessary, and training on that skill is necessary, and adjust the curriculum so that students only need access to calculators for the few days necessary to teach those skills. They could even have a short course that is dedicated solely to calculator skills (using equipment that the school provides, just like typewriters), or they can teach those skills using a calculator simulator built into the computers they already have, during the requisite computer skills course.

And leave calculators out of Mathematics courses.