New WDW ride attractions with wheelchair access?

[SueM in MN]

Spoiler article with very complete descriptions of what is expected.

https://orlandoparkstop.com/news/rumors/mickey-minnies-runaway-railway-everything-we-think-we-know/

 

[mir4mad]

Very disappointed that there is not going to be a wheelchair ride vehicle since Runaway Railway is supposed to be a “family” ride! No height requirement and for all ages should not be “dynamic in nature”. This type of ride excludes babies, the elderly and those who can not transfer! Nowadays that’s someone in everyone’s family that will be excluded! Since these trackless ride vehicles break off supposedly from the train couldn’t they program one wheelchair vehicle to not experience the dynamic parts of the ride? What about an alternative experience? Hollywood Studios only has one ride with a wheelchair car! Aren’t there enough “thrill” rides with several more coming? This could be and should be a unique experience for everyone if only there was just a little more imagination and consideration taken in to include the whole family!

 

[SueM in MN]

Very disappointed that there is not going to be a wheelchair ride vehicle since Runaway Railway is supposed to be a “family” ride! No height requirement and for all ages should not be “dynamic in nature”. This type of ride excludes babies, the elderly and those who can not transfer! Nowadays that’s someone in everyone’s family that will be excluded! Since these trackless ride vehicles break off supposedly from the train couldn’t they program one wheelchair vehicle to not experience the dynamic parts of the ride? What about an alternative experience? Hollywood Studios only has one ride with a wheelchair car! Aren’t there enough “thrill” rides with several more coming? This could be and should be a unique experience for everyone if only there was just a little more imagination and consideration taken in to include the whole family!

It doesn’t have any warnings, height or age requirement, so babies can ride and there are no warnings that would exclude elderly guests or guests with health issues.

I‘ll know more after we ride it, but I think the ‘dynamic elements‘ won’t be rough, just would put sideways, forward and backward strain on a wheelchair that not all wheelchairs can withstand.
The lap bar restraint is probably in big part to prevent guests from moving around, standing or trying to get out (since there will be no driver).

 

[GranJan1]

We don't really have any "official" information about MMRR yet - other than the rumors that the previous ride vehicles will be repurposed, but we don't know how extensive any refurbishment of those would be, and how it might impact accessibility.

Remember that Toy Story Mania does have a wheelchair car - they can open up the back of one of the HA cars, and they load you in your chair into the special car so you don't have to transfer. Figment at Epcot is another no-transfer ride, because you are loaded into a special car in your chair.

I tried the Toy Story Mania wheelchair car before, the year I switched from an ECV to a power chair. They had trouble finding places to tie down my chair. It seemed very insecure so I decided to attempt transferring this time. It was a struggle I don’t want to repeat. Next time I plan to see if they have a manual chair I can use for the ride. I’m sure it could be tied down more securely.

 

[BillSears]

... Unfortunately, most guests want more and more ‘thrilling’ rides or ‘unique’ experiences, which often mean the ride motions are too intense for a wheelchair, even with tie down fasteners like the Toy Story Mania ride cars have.

Sue that's part of it but it can be done. At Universal the Skull Island: Reign of Kong ride allows a person to remain in their wheelchair. It's a rough ride, much rougher than Kilimanjaro Safari. I've ridden it and there were times I was holding on afraid either I was going to fall over or something would break on my chair. The side to side stresses were amazing. But they strapped me in really tight and everything was fine.

It could be done if Disney had this as a priority.

 

[SueM in MN]

Sue that's part of it but it can be done. At Universal the Skull Island: Reign of Kong ride allows a person to remain in their wheelchair. It's a rough ride, much rougher than Kilimanjaro Safari. I've ridden it and there were times I was holding on afraid either I was going to fall over or something would break on my chair. The side to side stresses were amazing. But they strapped me in really tight and everything was fine.

It could be done if Disney had this as a priority.

Thanks for the perspective. I haven’t been on Reign of Kong to know how rough it is.
From what I could see in the dark videos, it looks similar (but longer) to the old, discontinued part of Catastrophe Canyon part of Disney Studio’s Backstage Tour.

From what I’ve read, the ride cars at Mickey’s railroad are trackless and will be traveling backward, forward, side to side and in circles (when caught by a tornado) plus making some quick evasive motions.
There is also a portion where the individual ride vehicles lock into separate motion ’chambers’ that do more extreme motion.

I will know more once we ride it ourselves.

 

[BillSears]

I agree. The new Kong ride are vehicles slightly larger than the Safari jeeps but they're mounted on gimbles(?) so the whole vehicle moves side to side, front to back, up and down and travels along a track system. I'd put it somewhere along the roughness of Dinosaur or maybe even more. Also Universal has the Men In Black ride that allows you to be strapped in while in your wheelchair. That one is pretty rough too.

I can't imagine MMRR being that rough. Maybe it's the size of the cars and they just didn't have room to do a major strap down of a wheelchair.

 

[ssnelle]

This is very good to know. My husband has a disability Nich unfortunately is getting worse as he ages. Glad this Board is here

 

[Evita_W]

Disney is really loosing tough lately with keeping things accessible for everyone. The bottom line is ALL new attractions should have a non-transfer method or at bare minimum a method where a Disney owned wheelchair could be provided to be used on the attraction, that way if there is a risk to the wheelchair, it is their chair and not someone else's that breaks, But when I say all, I do mean all, including roller coasters and yes, there are ways that it could be done, even on a roller coaster, although it could cost a bit, but the PR that it would generate would pay that back very quickly. At bare minimum, all roller coasters should be able to pull a train off to the side for loading and unloading like Space Mountain at Disneyland.

Now, while this one is not allowing a person to ride without transferring, the following is an example of how other theme parks are going above and beyond by creating a harness that allows amputees to ride Mako at SeaWorld:

Add to that the fact that SeaWord is one of the few theme parks that is a certified Autism center and you start seeing that Disney really isn't keeping up with accessibility, there once was a time when they were the most accessible of any theme park, but Disney seems to have stopped caring and others have stepped up their efforts.

Navi River Journey absolutely could have an ADA boat, perhaps only with one companion, but there are several ways it could be accomplished and don't give me the boat is too small, the boat is larger than the load platform for the ADA boat of Small World at Disneyland (The WDW version is different, but you get the idea).

According to https://www.access-board.gov/guidel...on-amusement-rides/accessible-amusement-rides here is what is required for new and altered rides:

Accessible Rides
Each newly constructed or newly designed amusement ride must provide at least one wheelchair space, or at least one ride seat designed for transfer, or a transfer device designed to transfer a person using a wheelchair from the load and unload area to a ride seat. The choice of which type of access that is provided for each ride is left up to the operator or designer.
Where possible, operators are encouraged to exceed the number of accessible ride seats so that more people with disabilities and their families can enjoy the rides at the same time.

There are a few exceptions:

• Mobile or portable amusement rides such as those in traveling carnivals, State and county fairs, and festivals, do not need to comply. Mobile rides are available that provide wheelchair access and other rides could provide transfer access with minor modifications.
• Rides that are controlled or operated by the rider (such as bumper cars and go-carts) are not required to comply with the guidelines, but an accessible route to the ride and a turning space (60-inch diameter circle or T-shaped turning space) in the load and unload area must be provided. (This exception does not apply if patrons can merely cause the ride to make incidental movements, but otherwise have no control over the ride.)
• Rides designed for children, assisted on and off by an adult, are only required to provide an accessible route to the ride and a turning space in the load and unload area. While the occasional adult user may ride, the exception applies only to those rides that are designed for children.
• Rides that do not have seats must only provide an accessible route to the load and unload areas and a turning space in the load and unload area.

None of these exceptions would seem to apply in this case, as it is not a portable attraction, it is not controlled by the rider, it is not designed for Children to ride on their own after being assisted by an adult to get on or off and it has seats, so the rules must apply. I do think the rules should be modified to insist that a wheelchair vehicle must be provided if at all possible though.

Chances are Disney is doing the bare minimum required by ADA, but the issue is even if what they are doing violates ADA, the only recourse people have is to sue and of course Disney has the money to fight the lawsuits. We really need to have an agency that enforces ADA laws, similar to the ones that enforce health codes with the ability to levy fines, close businesses, etc. The best system would be one that puts heavy penalties on these major companies when they violate ADA laws and then use say half of these fines to assist smaller companies (the ma and pa shops of the world) in fixing ADA violations and the other half be used to pay for running this agency and then anything left over goes to the state's general fund, reducing the need to raise taxes (the last part is more important in California than Florida though). This benefits everyone, as it makes even the smaller businesses more accessible, raises funds for the state and ensures larger corporations are being held accountable for violations.

 

[SueM in MN]

It’s not as simple as the size of one element.
It’s not the size of the load area at Na’vi River Journey, it’s the size of the boats.
this is a video of Small World wheelchair loading at Disneyland. It‘s similar in many parts to MK’s Jungle Cruise accessible boat (just missing the lift part).

The first two are pictures of the Disneyland Small World - first the wheelchair accessible boat, then a regular boat. The wheelchair apparatus takes 2 full rows.

The third is the Na’vi River Journey boat, which is considerably smaller, with only 2 rows.

There might be something that could be done to make the Na’vi boats more accessible, but something that works on one ride might not work on another (and I was told there was work on a solution that didn’t ultimately work).
I‘ve also read that design changes to the ‘river’ path that shortened it required a sharper turn near the end and shorter boats to be able to make the turn. I don’t know how changes like that are vetted and rechecked for accessibility.
If there is not a wheelchair accessible ride vehicle, the ADA just requires specific amounts of clear space for transfer and a transfer device (which could be a sliding board or a transfer tier).
There is nothing about the Na’vi boats that violate the ADA as it is written. Because my daughter is best left in her own wheelchair, I wish all attractions allowed her to stay in her wheelchair, but just because they don’t, doesn’t mean any laws were broken.

 

[Evita_W]

As I said, Disney I am sure is complying with the minimum required, but IF laws are broken, there isn't much recourse beyond suing and that part is wrong.

Additionally, I was pointing out that Disney used to do more than comply with the minimum, they used to go way above and beyond and they need to get back to that or they are going to end up loosing business to their competition, as their competition is doing what Disney used to. This part had nothing to do with laws and I can think of several solutions that would work for Navi, even with the shorter boats, also the pictures you used are the newer small world boats, the older ones had smaller load platforms.

 

[mamabunny]

I still maintain that a modified pool lift could be permanently positioned at one station for *all* of the boat rides that would allow virtually anyone to be able to ride the boat rides.

I agree with @Evita_W - there is no excuse for Navi River not being fully accessible, regardless of the changes to the river layout.

*NOT* saying that "I won't ever go to Disney again..." or anything like that - but I do find it frustrating that the company that has created groundbreaking animatronics and amazing ride experiences can't use a wee bit of that expertise to make ALL rides accessible to EVERYONE.

/end soapbox

 

[CJN]

I still maintain that a modified pool lift could be permanently positioned at one station for *all* of the boat rides that would allow virtually anyone to be able to ride the boat rides.

I agree with @Evita_W - there is no excuse for Navi River not being fully accessible, regardless of the changes to the river layout.

Agreed. And that‘s what makes NRJ so disappointing in my opinion. While beautiful, it’s so excessively mild and short that even this creaky old woman is bored riding more than once. But yet that excessive mildness should make it a perfect candidate to be fully accessible, which it’s not. Disney should’ve made more effort one way or the other.

 

[DisneyOma]

Disney is really loosing tough lately with keeping things accessible for everyone. The bottom line is ALL new attractions should have a non-transfer method or at bare minimum a method where a Disney owned wheelchair could be provided to be used on the attraction, that way if there is a risk to the wheelchair, it is their chair and not someone else's that breaks, But when I say all, I do mean all, including roller coasters and yes, there are ways that it could be done, even on a roller coaster, although it could cost a bit, but the PR that it would generate would pay that back very quickly. At bare minimum, all roller coasters should be able to pull a train off to the side for loading and unloading like Space Mountain at Disneyland.

If anyone in a wheelchair was allowed to ride, and someone was not physically capable of riding and got injured, guess who would be sued?

Pulling trains off of roller coasters is dangerous - each time it is done, there's a chance it will not re-engage properly. That's a huge risk for the more extreme coasters, and I would not want to ever see an accident happen because a ride vehicle flew off a coaster. More tame ones like Space? Still a risk. Even the Skyliner pulloffs are risky, IMO.

 

[Evita_W]

If anyone in a wheelchair was allowed to ride, and someone was not physically capable of riding and got injured, guess who would be sued?

Pulling trains off of roller coasters is dangerous - each time it is done, there's a chance it will not re-engage properly. That's a huge risk for the more extreme coasters, and I would not want to ever see an accident happen because a ride vehicle flew off a coaster. More tame ones like Space? Still a risk. Even the Skyliner pulloffs are risky, IMO.

No, the pull offs are not risky, they work quite well and if there is an error, it simply results in a ride shut down in the worst case scenario.

 

[Evita_W]

Agreed. And that‘s what makes NRJ so disappointing in my opinion. While beautiful, it’s so excessively mild and short that even this creaky old woman is bored riding more than once. But yet that excessive mildness should make it a perfect candidate to be fully accessible, which it’s not. Disney should’ve made more effort one way or the other.

Exactly

 

[Chickenlady]

If they could use a lift to get anyone in the boats...what would happen if they needed to evacuate the ride? It would take a long time to get a lift to the boats out in the ride path.

 

[SueM in MN]

I’m curious if the people suggesting modified pool lifts have ever used one?
Or a patient lift (often called a Hoyer lift)?

 

[ZJ5/9D47]

This is actually on old post, but has some new info.
It will not be using the same ride cars as Great Movie Ride and officially will NOT have a wheelchair accessible ride car, so it will require a transfer.
I have one additional piece of official information that I need to check if I am allowed to share at this time or not. Even though the ride car won’t be wheelchair accessible, the additional information will make it much easier to transfer on and off. I will add the information when I have the OK to share.
I am disappointed there will not be a wheelchair car, but I can see why it won’t.
From the additional information, I think it will be a very easy transfer and my family should be able to ride it. We’ll find out in April.

I have been told it can’t be wheelchair accessible because of the ‘dynamic nature’ of the ride. If I can find it again, I will make another post with a link I found that describes the whole ride. Reading the description, I can see why it could not have a wheelchair car. Unfortunately, most guests want more and more ‘thrilling’ rides or ‘unique’ experiences, which often mean the ride motions are too intense for a wheelchair, even with tie down fasteners like the Toy Story Mania ride cars have.

The first concept pictures showed only a portion of the ride car and looked like they might use the same car. The information that has come out since then have shown the ride cars will be totally different. This picture of a model displayed at the D23 convention was posted on the wdwinfo part of the DIS.
View attachment 472283

I’m not sure if this concept drawing was also from D23 or another press release, but it is also official. The screenshot of the ride information is from My Disney Experience app.
The official information is that each railroad train will have 4 cars that are 2 rows and seat about 4 guests per row.
That is considerably smaller than the Great Movie Ride trams, which had 2 cars with about 8 rows per car and seated 6-8 per row.

The restraint will be a lap bar shared by the whole row. Just having a restraint is an indication that the attraction will have motion that requires a restraint.View attachment 472293

View attachment 472284

Do you have any thoughts on why they wouldn't include a seat belt option for the wheelchair transfer spot? It is so helpful to have one on Dinosaur and RotR and very difficult on BTMRR when there is just a lap bar and a long bench. Many people naturally brace with their feet when the ride vehicle spins and jerks around and that isn't always an option for those using a wheelchair and the seatbelt helps with preventing sliding around and staying properly in the seat....especially when riding alone or with others that are larger in size. I can't be the only one with this issue.

I also am not seeing any hand bars which seems odd, especially since they are usually offered and needed to transfer into the accessible seat and are nice to hold on to during the ride. On many rides the normal hand bars are too far away for the average sized woman without needing to lean forward.

 

[mamabunny]

I’m curious if the people suggesting modified pool lifts have ever used one?
Or a patient lift (often called a Hoyer lift)?

I have used a Hoyer lift in the past as a patient, and I cared for a family member who utilized one. I haven't used the pool lifts at WDW because we typically travel in January and I'm usually too cold to go swimming then Plus I do my PT in the pool when I am at home, so I tend to associate getting in the pool with work, not relaxation

I'm suggesting a *heavily modified* permanent installation of a similar type lift - not necessarily just installing a pool lift and walking away. Obviously, each installation would have to be customized for each ride, and you wouldn't use a sling for the seat, but more likely a platform seat or even a modified seat that could be lowered on top of the existing bench, used by the rider for the entire length of the boat ride, and then connected to the lift to be returned to the dock. But Disney certainly has the kind of engineering talent on staff to use that as a base or beginning for a way to get folks in and out of the boat rides. It's not a perfect solution (nothing really is in this case) but it might offer a way for more folks to ride than can right now; we have *lots* of folks just here on this forum alone who can't get in and out of the boats because of how the dock height vs. the step down/back up works against their physical abilities.

I was just discussing earlier today with one of my medical team the physics of transferring and how difficult a skill it is to learn the older you get. Most folks over a certain age (not throwing shade at anyone here, I promise!) don't have the core strength or the upper body/arm strength to be able to do a safe, proper transfer without extensive PT and training. It's not something that the average adult thinks about needing in the future; believe me, had I known how quickly it would become crucial for me, I would have made it a priority to focus on those skills at PT a long time ago. A lot of the transfers I see others making at WDW are difficult at best; it seems to me like the people who are designing the ride cars and the ride boats don't have anyone on staff who actually *has to* transfer, or we might be seeing quite different ride vehicles (and/or transfer protocols) at WDW!

Personally, I would prefer something more like the boats used at Small World for all of the boat rides, (with a built-in ramp) but that's not possible at every boat ride for lots of reasons that most of us here are already familiar with.