Need Advice About My Grandmother

[Mama-san]

Okie dokey. Long story here. Any thoughts or advice are appreciated.

Background - My grandmother, 85, currently lives at home and drives, walks with assistance of cane. She's been dealing with some health issues for years, like high blood pressure and gout, and almost 5 years ago had quadriple bypass surgery. Last Feb., she had a stroke and lived with me for a months. She is an extremely active and social lady. She is her church organist, president of the local NAMI group (National Assoc. on Mental Illness - my grandfather was bi-polar), sits on the board of several organizations, Red Hat, trips with the church, etc. If somebody sends her a card, she will in return send that person a thank you note for the card that they sent. A couple of weeks ago at a family reunion, when prompted to eat, she said she'd rather talk than eat and wrapped up her plate to go. Love her to death but she can drive her immediate family members nuts. She is a hoarder. Has always been a pack rat, but since my grandfather died 17 yrs. ago, it is out of control. She will only let me into her house. Her washer and dryer are broke, but she won't let anybody in to fix them. She could put some of the people from the show on tv to shame. You have to follow paths to get from room to room. It smells, it's nasty. She's always supposedly working on it, but she's too busy to. We've offered many times to help - my uncle has even offered to pay to have it cleaned - but she refuses because she insists on going through every single item herself. At that rate, it will take 20 yrs. to get done.

Anyhoo, a week or so ago she had another series of strokes at her home. I found her (she had been in the same spot for approx. 18 hrs), called 911. The paramedics really had a time getting her out. She was in the hospital for 5 days and is now at rehab. The biggest physical impact of the stroke is with her legs and walking, which is getting better. Tomorrow we have a family meeting there at rehab to discuss her progess and what are her plans when she leaves. This is where my problem lies. My aunt (her daughter) and I have discussed this previously. First we were going to push for her going to assisted living, but my aunt had spoken with a social worker at the hosptial who suggested we not do this because sometimes people like my GM lose their will to live if forced into this situation and that we should just let her go home. When the social worker at rehab asked about her going home, my aunt told her about the house and our concerns and the social worker said we would all discuss it at the metting tomorrow. I'm not looking forward to it, went through the same thing when she was at rehab last year. In front of the people there, she tries to blow the house thing off as something very minor, she just needs to do a little picking up. What she needs is a team of 12 with hazmat suits and couple of dumpsters! This week my aunt wanted to go to my GM's house to clean the fridge and throw away some trash in the pathways to make the house more accessable, but my GM would not let her saying that the stuff might be important and she wanted to go through it first. We've thought about taking pictures to bring with us to show how bad it is but I don't want to embarrass her, and it definitely would, but she's so hard headed it's infuriating. As a huge mental health advocate, she is unable to address her own issues. As her granddaughter, in good conscience, cannot let her go back into that environment. When she stayed with me or stays with my aunt, her health always gets better, but neither of us are able to take her in permanently. What should I do? Try to get her into assisted living or just let her live however at home, which is what she wants?

Thanks for listening.
SC

 

[chattyann]

What if you basically gave her the option, telling her she can either go to an assisted living location or she has to allow you to go in and clean up her house because it is not a healthy environment for her to be in. Sometimes you just have to do what you know is the right thing. Just speaking for myself, if I knew one of my family members was living in an unhealthy and dirty place I would have to make sure that the situation did not continue, even if it meant maybe upsetting them knowing they will be better off in the long run. If you really think about it, if they are living in that kind of environment they are not making sound decisions. She obviously needs help with her issues. LET HER KNOW YOU ARE DOING THIS BECAUSE YOU LOVE HER AND WANT HER TO BE HEALTHY.

 

[handinpocket]

She is *85*, let her live her life in peace at home.

 

[rie'smom]

If she would be in danger at her house because of the clutter, take pictures if you can with either a camera or your phone and show them to the social worker.

 

[MushyMushy]

I'm dealing with a similar issue with my father. What the social workers have told us is that as long as the elderly person is of their right mind, then it's their choice to live in a hoarding mess. We've been able to get my dad in assisted living, but he doesn't want to remain there permanently.

Try to get her to let you throw out a little bit at a time, especially food or trash. You can't force the issue because it's just too upsetting for them, plus even if you did go through and sweep the whole place clean, she'll have it messed up again in no time.

Good luck. I don't have much advice, but just wanted to offer you some support.

 

[barkley]

unless someone in your family has power of attorney over your grandmother noone can force her to do anything, and only then if the power of attorney is in force and she can't or chooses not to revoke it.

if you feel she's endangered returning to/living in the situation you can make a referral to adult protective services and they can make an assessment but unless they decide the situation endangers her welfare or causes a public health risk they can't force her to live elsewhere or clean up either.

if grandma is a hoarder then going in against her will and doing a massive clean up could have disasterous effects. it could cause her tremendous mental and emotional distress (as a stroke victim myself i can say this is the last thing you need while recovering), and it could leave her with a sense of being violated such that she will not permit ANYONE, absent a court order into her home. for a true hoarder, cleaning up the home is not going to make a difference-it will quickly return to the same state, and unless a potential alternate housing arrangement takes steps to address/curb the behaviour she wil end up in the same situation.


i would talk with the sw's to see if you can get them to require a home assessment prior to discharge, take some photos with you to show them your concerns for grandma's safety. if they believe it's a safety issue then grandma won't have a choice in the matter-they will have a legal obligation to report to adult protective services.


just as an aside-we had to deal with some hoarding issues with a late family member who was also very involved with some church and other organizations (holding offices)-BE VERY CAREFUL when a clean up does occur pertaining to paperwork, the amount of papers we found with very confidential information that would have been an identity theif's dream score was frightening. old paperwork where it was common practice for members to list social security numbers, home addresses, dates of birth...some where diagnosis were detailed with health care provider info (person had a previous connection to mental health supportive services) it takes more time in the cleaning process but things need to be shredded vs. just mass dumped.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

There is nothing you can do to stop her behavior. Since she is 85 and lives a full life outside her hoarding I honestly would just leave it be unless you think she is in danger in the home with her recovery. I would certainly push for a rehab facility while she recovers.

You are not going to be able to "fix" this. Your focus should be "safe and comfortable". Anyway that is my sister's mantra. She is currently caring for her MIL in her own home as she is dying from cancer because MIL's home is mice ridden and filthy.

 

[NotUrsula]

I agree with everyone else to an extent; it's her house and she probably won't thank you all for interfering.

I *would* get her washer and drier repaired while she's in rehab, though. I'm sure she'll be a bit annoyed initially that you let someone in, but she really needs to be able to properly clean her clothing and bedding. I'd also check around to make sure that anything that is drawing vermin is removed/repaired. (My mom had a broken window in her home that was letting in field mice; we fixed it even though she had piled furniture in front of it.) So I guess my reply is half and half -- mostly leave it alone, except perhaps for specific instances that are particularly problematic.

 

[TanyaLovesPooh]

I think she should be able to make her own decision and go home if that is what she wants.

 

[daughtersrus]

Okie dokey. Long story here. Any thoughts or advice are appreciated.

Background - My grandmother, 85, currently lives at home and drives, walks with assistance of cane. She's been dealing with some health issues for years, like high blood pressure and gout, and almost 5 years ago had quadriple bypass surgery. Last Feb., she had a stroke and lived with me for a months. She is an extremely active and social lady. She is her church organist, president of the local NAMI group (National Assoc. on Mental Illness - my grandfather was bi-polar), sits on the board of several organizations, Red Hat, trips with the church, etc. If somebody sends her a card, she will in return send that person a thank you note for the card that they sent. A couple of weeks ago at a family reunion, when prompted to eat, she said she'd rather talk than eat and wrapped up her plate to go. Love her to death but she can drive her immediate family members nuts. She is a hoarder. Has always been a pack rat, but since my grandfather died 17 yrs. ago, it is out of control. She will only let me into her house. Her washer and dryer are broke, but she won't let anybody in to fix them. She could put some of the people from the show on tv to shame. You have to follow paths to get from room to room. It smells, it's nasty. She's always supposedly working on it, but she's too busy to. We've offered many times to help - my uncle has even offered to pay to have it cleaned - but she refuses because she insists on going through every single item herself. At that rate, it will take 20 yrs. to get done.

Anyhoo, a week or so ago she had another series of strokes at her home. I found her (she had been in the same spot for approx. 18 hrs), called 911. The paramedics really had a time getting her out. She was in the hospital for 5 days and is now at rehab. The biggest physical impact of the stroke is with her legs and walking, which is getting better. Tomorrow we have a family meeting there at rehab to discuss her progess and what are her plans when she leaves. This is where my problem lies. My aunt (her daughter) and I have discussed this previously. First we were going to push for her going to assisted living, but my aunt had spoken with a social worker at the hosptial who suggested we not do this because sometimes people like my GM lose their will to live if forced into this situation and that we should just let her go home. When the social worker at rehab asked about her going home, my aunt told her about the house and our concerns and the social worker said we would all discuss it at the metting tomorrow. I'm not looking forward to it, went through the same thing when she was at rehab last year. In front of the people there, she tries to blow the house thing off as something very minor, she just needs to do a little picking up. What she needs is a team of 12 with hazmat suits and couple of dumpsters! This week my aunt wanted to go to my GM's house to clean the fridge and throw away some trash in the pathways to make the house more accessable, but my GM would not let her saying that the stuff might be important and she wanted to go through it first. We've thought about taking pictures to bring with us to show how bad it is but I don't want to embarrass her, and it definitely would, but she's so hard headed it's infuriating. As a huge mental health advocate, she is unable to address her own issues. As her granddaughter, in good conscience, cannot let her go back into that environment. When she stayed with me or stays with my aunt, her health always gets better, but neither of us are able to take her in permanently. What should I do? Try to get her into assisted living or just let her live however at home, which is what she wants?

Thanks for listening.
SC

We went through something very similar with my dad a few years ago. Like other have said, if the elderly person is of sound mind, they get to make the choice.

We contacted the Dept of Aging for our state. My dad was living on disability so his income was low enough. (they didn't count assets). He was able to get a lady to his house about 6 hours a week to do whatever he needed (clean, shop, laundry, change sheets...or just sit and talk with him). He also was given a life-alarm that he wore around his neck.

Even after he got to the point that he needed more help than that, we were told that it was his choice.

I brought him to our house for a few weeks because we felt it was unsafe for him to be by himself. I spoke with the social worker about this and she advised me that since he was at our house because of a safety concern, if he were to hurt himself while we left him alone, we could be in trouble for neglect. We just couldn't risk this. We also have a disabled DD so the thought of her being taken from us if something happened to dad was not a risk that we were willing to take. We moved dad back into his apartment and about 3 weeks later, we got a call from a VA nursing home pretty far away that they had an opening for him. I think that the social worker at the the VA here that I was dealing with pulled some strings. Dad agreed to "try it". We moved him in on Halloween and less than 3 months later, he died from complication of a surgery that was unrelated to his previous medical problems.

 

[Mama-san]

Thanks for all of your input. I know the choice is hers, and I'm fed up with being stressed out about it (it's been a concern for a while now), and I'm now inclined that if she wants to go back, then so be it. I love her and I want her to be safe, where if something happens she will have assistance, where she'll have clean clothes and get regular baths (she hates water), healthy meals (she's diabetic), etc.. I try to do all I can, but there is a limit to what she will let you do for her. I feel like if we got protective services involved that they would act, but it would royally piss my GM off and considering the mental health issues of hoarders, I don't want to put that anxiety on her. I'm afraid if we force her into assisted living, she will lose her desire to live and really go down hill. So right now, I'm hoping she will let us go in with her to her house and at least get her immediate living area slightly more habital. We just want the best for her and for her to be able to thrive where ever that is. Thanks again.

 

[barkley]

has your grandma gone to look at the assisted living options in your area? she might be REALY surprised at how different they are than many people perceive them to be. they can vary greatly from places where i will admit i would feel intruded upon by the number of people involved in one's life, to the kind my mom is in where she has a private apartment with a small kitchen area (sink, microwave, toaster oven, mini fridge), gets weekly maid service and linens, and has the choice of going to the 3 meals per day the dining room offers (and we are talking table service, not cafeteria style).

my mil was VERY independant, and she never saw herself moving into an assisted living, but when she sold her home and was undecided on what she wanted to do she found that the assisted living apartments were the only place in her town that would do a month to month tenancy. she moved there figuring that in a few months when she made a decision she would move on.

she stayed several years until her passing. she found that b/c she was a social person that she loved the activities and trips the place did. she loved being able to go to her church and retiree events knowing that when she got home she did'nt have to cook. she developed new friendships with a host of people she never would have met otherwise. it was entirely different than she ever would have believed.

you might try to get grandma to visit a few of the places available to her-maybe get her to at least give it a try while she's rehabilitating. you might find that after a couple of months she won't be interested in going back to her house.

 

[JoiseyMom]

Does anyone have the key to her house now? Why don't you guys just go through it now and clean it up while she is in rehab? SHe may not like it, but what is she going to do after the fact? I mean, save bank papers and anything important...but you know what garbage is and isn't. If you dont want to throw out collected clean clothes and such, then rent a storage room and put those items there for her to look through. But if you through out what is trash trash...you may have room for the other stuff.

I would just do it...or contact the health department and have them order it to be done, so she wont be mad at you. I wouldn't let her go back there though.

 

[Bren's Mom]

I would go to the meeting and bring pictures. Yes, GM gets to make the final decision...and I would support whatever she decides since it is her life. However, it's important for the social worker to see what the conditions truly are. If GM is upset, that can't be helped. I think you do have a responsibility to let the people helping her know what the real situation is. And then step back. Let THEM choose whether to release her back into that situation or not.