"Naked" X-Ray Scans At The Airport.. Your Thoughts?

[shrubber]

Now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Go back to Eliza61's example. Why not just have some random stranger treat your cancer? Who is to say that the average citizen isn't as skilled as an oncologist? Oh wait.......I know why. Because it is simply ridiculous.

CC permit holders are trained.

 

[robinb]

Now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Yes, he is and has been for days. Why do you continue to engage him?

ETA: He has nearly twice as many posts as the next most frequent poster, LOL!

 

[Wall-E1]

News flash, Muslim is a religion, not a race.

News flash! I stated this point very clearly in my post.

Racial profiling?!?!? If we start treating one group of people differently than other Americans because of name or appearance, than we are no longer equal. This is something that is done when fear outweighs reason. This will not strengthen us as a nation. This will make us appear weak. This will show the terrorists that our will can be broken. That if we become scared enough, we will go against the values that this nation was founded on. We should not go down this dangerous road as a country because we may not like where it leads us.

There are 5 - 8 million Muslims living in the U.S. today. They are citizens like you and me. Should they be treated differently, solely on the basis of their name, or color of their skin? These are contributing, peaceful members of our society. The terrorists who attacked our country on 9/11 were not Muslims. They may have called themselves that, but they were simply agents of evil. The Muslim religion and values are peaceful. It would be ridiculous to punish true Muslims who practice their faith in a peaceful manner, simply because of some crazed extremists who falsely described themselves as being of the Muslim faith.

News flash! Racial profiling is not exclusive to race. Racial profiling is utilized based on race, nationality or religion. Please see definition...

racial profiling: the use of race (and often nationality or religion) to identify a person as a suspect or potential suspect. Racial profiling is one of the ways that racism is manifested and perpetuated.

News flash! Racial profiling perpetuates racism. The nazis used racial profiling on the Jews in WWII. The KKK uses racial profiling against blacks. Skinheads use racial profiling against blacks and Jews. These are extreme cases of racial profiling used for the purpose of violence, and I am not suggesting that you want to use racial profiling for evil purposes such as these groups do. However, my beliefs and values do not align with groups such as nazis, KKK, and skinheads. I guess I will just have to respectfully disagree with your views on the racial profiling of Muslims that you endorse, based on religion, skin color, eye color; etc. Your intentions may be good, but I don't think you understand that racial profiling is not the answer. This type of behavior sends a dangerous message to Americans. It sends a message that we should be suspicious and fear all Muslims. It's almost like an endorsement to do so. I, as well as many other Disers, have friends that are Muslims. I will always fight for them to be treated equally. They should not be treated differently because of their name or skin color. I would not want to see the day where I have to explain to my child why there are "Muslim Only" lines at the airport. The idea of racial profiling seems so un-american to me. You have made yourself very clear in several posts that you feel only Muslims are carrying out terrorist acts. Again I will point out that these terrorists are not Muslims. They can call themselves whatever they want, but the Muslim faith does not endorse terrorism anymore then the Christian faith endorses abortion clinic bombings. This belief of yours that we should be treating Americans differently because of their name or the color of their skin is very sad. I am not able to make "boogeymen" out of Muslims. I cannot demonize them to the point where I would suggest that every Muslim is a suspect not to be trusted, but feared. I believe that our nation is better than that. We have many tools at our disposal that can make air travel safer, without resorting to racial profiling.

 

[Wall-E1]

Yes, he is and has been for days. Why do you continue to engage him?

I sometimes ask myself that very question.

p.s. - I like your daughter's shirt.

 

[shrubber]

News flash! I stated this point very clearly in my post.



News flash! Racial profiling is not exclusive to race. Racial profiling is utilized based on race, nationality or religion. Please see definition...

racial profiling: the use of race (and often nationality or religion) to identify a person as a suspect or potential suspect. Racial profiling is one of the ways that racism is manifested and perpetuated.

News flash! Racial profiling perpetuates racism. The nazis used racial profiling on the Jews in WWII. The KKK uses racial profiling against blacks. Skinheads use racial profiling against blacks and Jews. These are extreme cases of racial profiling used for the purpose of violence, and I am not suggesting that you want to use racial profiling for evil purposes such as these groups do. However, my beliefs and values do not align with groups such as nazis, KKK, and skinheads. I guess I will just have to respectfully disagree with your views on the racial profiling of Muslims that you endorse, based on religion, skin color, eye color; etc. Your intentions may be good, but I don't think you understand that racial profiling is not the answer. This type of behavior sends a dangerous message to Americans. It sends a message that we should be suspicious and fear all Muslims. It's almost like an endorsement to do so. I, as well as many other Disers, have friends that are Muslims. I will always fight for them to be treated equally. They should not be treated differently because of their name or skin color. I would not want to see the day where I have to explain to my child why there are "Muslim Only" lines at the airport. The idea of racial profiling seems so un-american to me. You have made yourself very clear in several posts that you feel only Muslims are carrying out terrorist acts. Again I will point out that these terrorists are not Muslims. They can call themselves whatever they want, but the Muslim faith does not endorse terrorism anymore then the Christian faith endorses abortion clinic bombings. This belief of yours that we should be treating Americans differently because of their name or the color of their skin is very sad. I am not able to make "boogeymen" out of Muslims. I cannot demonize them to the point where I would suggest that every Muslim is a suspect not to be trusted, but feared. I believe that our nation is better than that. We have many tools at our disposal that can make air travel safer, without resorting to racial profiling.

I have never advocated any profiling based on skin color, appearance, or race. Putting words in my mouth does not advance your argument.
Your premise is incorrect.

 

[robinb]

I sometimes ask myself that very question.

p.s. - I like your daughter's shirt.

Thank you! We picked it up at the Dinosaur gift shop and it was *perfect* for her . It's too bad my DH and I couldn't find a T Rex t-shirt that said "Carnivore" .

 

[LisaR]

Yes, he is and has been for days. Why do you continue to engage him?

ETA: He has nearly twice as many posts as the next most frequent poster, LOL!

You are 100% correct. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Wall-E1]

I have never advocated any profiling based on skin color, appearance, or race. Putting words in my mouth does not advance your argument.
Your premise is incorrect.

Oh really...

The one security precaution the government refused to consider was to require extra screening for passengers who looked like the last three-dozen terrorists to attack airplanes.

Since Muslims took down Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988, every attack on a commercial airliner has been committed by foreign-born Muslim men with basically the same hair color, eye color and skin color. Half of them have been named Mohammed.

An alien from the planet "Not Politically Correct" would have surveyed the situation after 9/11 and said: "You are at war with an enemy without uniforms, without morals, without a country and without a leader -- but the one advantage you have is they all have quite a bit in common.... "

 

[Wall-E1]

Thank you! We picked it up at the Dinosaur gift shop and it was *perfect* for her . It's too bad my DH and I couldn't find a T Rex t-shirt that said "Carnivore" .

It's the reverse in my family. I am the vegetarian and my son is the carnivore. Perhaps a trade would be in order. Would you be interested in an obnoxious, know it all teenager(but he does enjoy corn dogs immensely)?

 

[shrubber]

Oh really...

And where did I say I advocated profiling based on that criteria?
I have only said we should profile based on names.
Try again.

 

[Wall-E1]

Now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Yes, he is and has been for days. Why do you continue to engage him?

ETA: He has nearly twice as many posts as the next most frequent poster, LOL!

You are 100% correct. Thanks for pointing that out.

Yes, both of you are correct. He is arguing, simply for the sake of arguing. He isn't even making sense anymore.

 

[FireDancer]

If blonde haired, blue eyed men were flying planes into buildings..then I'd have NO problem with blonde haired, blue eyed men being screened more carefully. It's not profiling..it's common sense.
Why do we feel the need to be so politically correct so as not to offend anyone to the point of risking the lives of the flying public? Talk about "not connecting the dots".
I was watching a former Israeli airline official being interviewed regarding their security screening at airports..and you bet your rear end they profile. You better be able to answer any and all questions placed to you to the satisfaction of security, or you're not flying. ....and they make no apologies for it. I think we should be using more of their techniques and training and forget about who we offend.

I despise political correctness and base my want to profile based on behavior strictly on logic. When you profile base on something superficial it is too easy to change. A name can be changed easily and no one will ever know. While you can't easily change race or skin color there are people who may be one race but look like another. Also, as John Walker proved there are people who don't fit the convenient stereotype of terrorist. If we are too busy looking at at the right hand the left will slap us in the face.

There is also the misguided logic that the only people who would take down a plane are Muslim terrorists. Even if every time the past that was the case it doesn't mean that in the future it will be. We can not base our security solely on what happened in the past because the next time it may be completely different. The next hijacking may be by a militia group or a cult like the Branch Davidians. If we look for suspicious behavior instead it can be found regardless of the skin color, religion, or country of origin of the would be hijacker/terrorist/bomber.

Ok..just started to read some of these posts (from the bottom up) and as far as profiling goes-I do agree with it. Maybe not just in name but they know what to look for-tickets paid by cash, no luggage, 1 way tickets, sinlgle travelers....along with some of the other comments here-no one wants to be pulled aside & questioned, but the people that blew up planes do have certain similarities. JMO

All of those are behaviors and would be some of the things I want looked for. If we only concentrate on people of a certain race or religion though doing those behaviors and ignore the others it is too easy to use on of those people who fit the "other" category to perpetrate the offense. Again, even if we consede that only Muslims are taking the planes down (which may or may not be the next attack) there are plenty of Muslim people who when shaved don't look Muslim. What about white or black American's that convert and don't change their names or people who change their names back to a "John Smith"?

If you profile someone standing on a drug corner it is that behavior that you profile, not the race. Heck, if that is the case and I am the boss I would just hire white people to sell drugs. Problem solved.

If guns on a plane are a bad idea then why are air marshalls armed then? And some ( not enough ) pilots?

The same reason that only certain people are allowed to pilot and fire a tank...specialized training. And I don't mean a one hour class to get a permit. I am talking hours of specialized training and tactical maneuvers to be able to safely fire a weapon in a confined area where friendly targets out number the unfriendly. A pilot is also only armed in case the cabin door is breached. They are not going to open a sealed door to fire into the passenger compartment.

Is there some Law of Physics that makes a government employee or hired Sky Marshal on an airplane a better shot than a citizen ?

If specialized training and persistent re-training and testing are a Law of Physics then yes.

Yes, both of you are correct. He is arguing, simply for the sake of arguing. He isn't even making sense anymore.

Exactly

 

[swald91]

But as LisaR so wisely pointed out, once you start doing more intense searches based on these (or any) criteria, "the bad guys" will do what it takes to blend in - whether it's check luggage, fly here from 'good' countries, travel in pairs/groups... No, instead it makes sense to screen everyone with the same intensity.

I agree with you 100% -once we the public know about details you know the "bad people" will too. My thing is if they know this info-they should have been doing everything to check them out better. Not sharing information from one agency to another is just dumb. It really just boggles my mind how people teach to hate-whether it comes from other countries not liking ours-or just discriminating of people of different races...I don't know-no respect for anyone today...seems so sad..

 

[eliza61]

Is there some Law of Physics that makes a government employee or hired Sky Marshal on an airplane a better shot than a citizen ?

Of course there is and yes I would know. I am a Phd. Chemist for Dupont chemicals 20 years this April. (undergraduate degree from University of Pittsburgh, graduate degrees from Carnagie Mellon) I've had a few physic course in my time. So if you want to discuss averages and probability, fire away (excuse the pun).
But the simple laws of Physics governing whether or not a successful shot ( and I'd like to think actually hitting the target and not bringing down a plane full of innocent bystanders would be a good measure of success) are most definitely influence by skill. Skill is obtained from training.

Even for you, this is not rocket scientist (but I know a few of them at Dupont who can break it down for you.)

My personal favorite would be Newtons 3rd law of Motion.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So when Joe Public misses his shot, I don't want to be the one who has to handle the "opposite" reaction.

And on that note, I think we've have crossed the barrier into the twighlight zone so I'll simply wish every one happy and safe flying.

 

[maddmike]

Yes, both of you are correct. He is arguing, simply for the sake of arguing. He isn't even making sense anymore.

shrubber actually makes a lot of sense and I agree with him. There are some Americans that actually care about the safety of other americans in this country and could care less about offending people from other countries. I don't care if we hurt someones feeling because the look different than us or have different names. I don't want my family on a plane that is going to blow up.

Political correctness is getting people killed. Look what has happened around the U.S. because we are so worried about offending people. Ft. hood is a great example. I can't figure out why all these people want to come to the U.S. if they want bring everything from their country with them. Now we have to call them Chinese-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Muslim-Americans...etc. If you want to be in this country as an american then be an Amecian and adobt the cultures, traditions and language of this country and get rid of this PC garbage of calling people __________ - Americans.

 

[testifyoncruises]

Someone in charge of the TSA ought to read The Guns of August. We are applying feel good measures because of what happened "Last time". The Islamic goons are employing measures for the "next time." We are fighting the Last war and in no way planning for the next attack using new methods.

This embarrassing and overreaching amount of money spent on what is in essence theater and nothing more is never going to be truly effective.

If you think you cannot stop them before they get to the airport, that is exact what happened in London to stop the liquid bombers. They never made it onto the airport property.

You can profile at every step of the way for behaviour and you should. You have jokes of Thousands Standing Around pilfering laptops and cameras all in an effort to have an ignorant who rarely flies public somehow feel good about their safety.

 

[FireDancer]

Of course there is and yes I would know. I am a Phd. Chemist for Dupont chemicals 20 years this April. (undergraduate degree from University of Pittsburgh, graduate degrees from Carnagie Mellon) I've had a few physic course in my time. So if you want to discuss averages and probability, fire away (excuse the pun).
But the simple laws of Physics governing whether or not a successful shot ( and I'd like to think actually hitting the target and not bringing down a plane full of innocent bystanders would be a good measure of success) are most definitely influence by skill. Skill is obtained from training.

Even for you, this is not rocket scientist (but I know a few of them at Dupont who can break it down for you.)

My personal favorite would be Newtons 3rd law of Motion.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So when Joe Public misses his shot, I don't want to be the one who has to handle the "opposite" reaction.

And on that note, I think we've have crossed the barrier into the twighlight zone so I'll simply wish every one happy and safe flying.

I love it. I think the case for Newton's first law could also be made. I would hate to be the net force that stops the bullets straight line of constant speed.

 

[sbell111]

shrubber actually makes a lot of sense and I agree with him. There are some Americans that actually care about the safety of other americans in this country and could care less about offending people from other countries. I don't care if we hurt someones feeling because the look different than us or have different names. I don't want my family on a plane that is going to blow up.

You realize that shrubber never made the distinction between muslims from another country and those from the US, right? What does it say about you that you somehow made the leep that these people with muslim-sounding names must be from other countries. Interesting...

Political correctness is getting people killed. Look what has happened around the U.S. because we are so worried about offending people. Ft. hood is a great example. I can't figure out why all these people want to come to the U.S. if they want bring everything from their country with them.

You know, 280 some odd years ago, my family came here. We dragged along our beliefs, history, and culture with us. I wonder how my ancesters would have reacted if they were told that they had to leave nearly everything that they were behind and completely assimilate. I suspect that someone would have gotten bloodied.

It is perfectly fine for people to keep their culture and history when the move somewhere else. Those that cannot accept that are best called racists and bigots, in my opinion.

Someone in charge of the TSA ought to read The Guns of August. We are applying feel good measures because of what happened "Last time". The Islamic goons are employing measures for the "next time." We are fighting the Last war and in no way planning for the next attack using new methods.

This embarrassing and overreaching amount of money spent on what is in essence theater and nothing more is never going to be truly effective.

If you think you cannot stop them before they get to the airport, that is exact what happened in London to stop the liquid bombers. They never made it onto the airport property.

You can profile at every step of the way for behaviour and you should. You have jokes of Thousands Standing Around pilfering laptops and cameras all in an effort to have an ignorant who rarely flies public somehow feel good about their safety.

The best case scenario is to stop the terrorists before they make their play. As seen on 7/7/05, that's not always possible. Therefore, you come up with better and better ways to stop them all along the way.

This body scanner is good technology that can help stop these terrorists from their killing.

 

[eliza61]

Political correctness is getting people killed. Look what has happened around the U.S. because we are so worried about offending people. Ft. hood is a great example. I can't figure out why all these people want to come to the U.S. if they want bring everything from their country with them. Now we have to call them Chinese-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Muslim-Americans...etc. If you want to be in this country as an american then be an Amecian and adobt the cultures, traditions and language of this country and get rid of this PC garbage of calling people __________ - Americans.

Adopt what culture. You do realize that the Native Americans were here FIRST right? So exactly who's culture should we be adopting? You cannot possibly believe that not celebrating Christmas or 4th of July makes one less American?
This is a country built on immigrants. There is a reason we are called a "melting pot".
I think Ft. Hood is another example of us missing red flags. There were a lot of warning signs and unfortunatly we did not connect the dots.

 

[declansdad]

If guns on a plane are a bad idea then why are air marshalls armed then? And some ( not enough ) pilots?

Do you really need to ask this question???? Have you ever admitted you were wrong?