"Naked" X-Ray Scans At The Airport.. Your Thoughts?

[Wall-E1]

Couldn't we solve two problems at once with these machines?

First, we can use them as a tool to make air travel safer.

Second, we can use them for uninsured Americans to get x-rays for free, rather than pay those abhorrently high emergency room fees. That should close the gap for health reform.

 

[FireDancer]

It doesn't work. It does in the obvious sense but honestly, we're going the wrong route on security. There was a guy on CNN this morning who used to run security for Ben Gurion airport in Tel Aviv. This IS the guy I want running the US Airports. His opinion is that the only way to stop terrorists in airports is to concentrate on their BEHAVIOR. There's a specific behavioral profile that most terrorists fit and EVERY employee in the airports can be trained to spot it.

Just remember that the bomb made it through a regular Xray. They can make them completely free of metal and magnetic components and they will come up with something to get past this scanner too.

Its time to STOP relying on technology.

And no I don't plan on flying any year soon. Driving to FL was a nice trip. If I decide to go out to CA then I'll plan far enough in advance to use AMTRAK.

I don't want to rely on technology but I want to use it. As I posted previously the X-ray machine, metal detector, bomb sniffing dogs, chemical vapor readers, behavior analysis, and all other forms of screening are parts of an overall whole. I don't want the x-ray machine to replace analyzing behavior, I want it to work along side it.

 

[Buzz's Buddy]

There's a specific behavioral profile that most terrorists fit and EVERY employee in the airports can be trained to spot it.

I added the bolding to point out that even this isn't foolproof. We need a combination of everything: technology, observation, bomb-sniffing dogs, no-fly lists, etc. Even then, it won't be perfect, but it will be better.

 

[AndyLL]

The crotch location was obviously chosen to beat a pat down, It has been confirmed that this method of smuggling the PETN would have been defeated by the body scan equipment.

The question is... would the body scan equipment plus other current methods defeat the bringing of PETN on board the plane.

The answer is no. Powders are allowed and there were a million things it could have been disgused as and sent through the x-ray machine.

Body scan would not have stopped 9/11 like you stated because the box cutters were sent through the x-ray machine.

Typical monday morning quarterbacking you're using to try to prove a point.

You want to change how things happened ( if a body scan was used ) without changing how the other side would have reacted ( you assume the bomber would have used the same methods )

You want to spend billions of dollars... not to catch bombers... but to force them to change techniques.

 

[sbell111]

Here's my thought, FWIW: Dead people don't have rights.

That's true, but live ones do.

The question is... would the body scan equipment plus other current methods defeat the bringing of PETN on board the plane.

The answer is no. Powders are allowed and there were a million things it could have been disgused as and sent through the x-ray machine.

Body scan would not have stopped 9/11 like you stated because the box cutters were sent through the x-ray machine.

Typical monday morning quarterbacking you're using to try to prove a point.

You want to change how things happened ( if a body scan was used ) without changing how the other side would have reacted ( you assume the bomber would have used the same methods )

You want to spend billions of dollars... not to catch bombers... but to force them to change techniques.

First, the question was whether this scanner would have ever stopped any attack. The answer to that is clearly 'yes'.

Second, the only way to be truly safe is to continue to come up ways to close security holes. Will the other side continue to try to come up with ways to get around the newer and newer security measures? Of course they will. Is that any reason not to increase security? Of course not.

 

[sbell111]

The question is... would the body scan equipment plus other current methods defeat the bringing of PETN on board the plane....

Maybe. Bags are already often scanned for explosive residue. This technology scans the people, also. Between the two, Attacks such as the one that was attempted on Xmas might be averted.

 

[DancingBear]

Second, the only way to be truly safe is to continue to come up ways to close security holes. Will the other side continue to try to come up with ways to get around the newer and newer security measures? Of course they will. Is that any reason not to increase security? Of course not.

But it is a reason to question whether the marginal benefit of any particular measure is worthwhile, particularly since given limited resources choosing to pursue a particular measure (like installing these machines) means not undertaking other measures addressing other risks that might have more of an overall benefit.

 

[FireDancer]

First, the question was whether this scanner would have ever stopped any attack. The answer to that is clearly 'yes'.

Second, the only way to be truly safe is to continue to come up ways to close security holes. Will the other side continue to try to come up with ways to get around the newer and newer security measures? Of course they will. Is that any reason not to increase security? Of course not.

Airport security, much like information security, is an arms race. The good guys find a way to stop one attack, the bad guys either find a work around or come up with a new attack, the good guys block or minimize that attack, and the cycle continues.

We would all love a catch all that stops everything but there isn't one. The scanners would be one part of the overall security protocol at airports. They may not stop a particular attack by itself but it can either make that attack harder or work with other equipment or people to stop part or all of a blended attack.

 

[Octoberbride03]

I don't want to rely on technology but I want to use it. As I posted previously the X-ray machine, metal detector, bomb sniffing dogs, chemical vapor readers, behavior analysis, and all other forms of screening are parts of an overall whole. I don't want the x-ray machine to replace analyzing behavior, I want it to work along side it.

That was the point from the interview. The US actually ISN'T analyzing behavior. The TSA is going for the most obvious and technology related solutions or requiring something new out of all the travelers. Gotta slip your shoes off now. Why cause we had a bomb in a shoe.Not the lesson we should have learned.

I'm not against Xrays and whatever, but when I listen to the guy from this morning its seems like there's a whole avenue out there that hasn't been explored.
I'm not even saying we've could have stopped all the hijackings on 9/11 with the behavior profile, but now that we know how it can be used we should do that b4 coming up with the next generation of scanners.

 

[LisaR]

And it works.

It does work and we need to stop being so politically correct in America and do the same thing. You can't blame this on the administration because nobody in office as long as I have been alive has had the guts to implement this.

BUT and this is a BIG BUT, the Israelis do more than just look for bombers. They still have bomb sniffing dogs, pat downs, question every single passenger, meticulously search luggage, uzi carrying guards, metal detectors, taxi, bus and car searches, etc, etc. No method is 100% effective unless we stop all air travel; therefore we need to use multiple methods.

 

[sbell111]

But it is a reason to question whether the marginal benefit of any particular measure is worthwhile, particularly since given limited resources choosing to pursue a particular measure (like installing these machines) means not undertaking other measures addressing other risks that might have more of an overall benefit.

I don't know what to tell you. I see the benefit in being able to see if someone is carrying something on board a plane that they should not.

 

[sbell111]

That was the point from the interview. The US actually ISN'T analyzing behavior.

This is not true. TSA screeners, airport police, and airline employees all recieve some amount of training on the importance of keeping an eye out for things that seem 'off'. Could we do more training on this? Probably.

 

[ford family]

It does work and we need to stop being so politically correct in America and do the same thing. You can't blame this on the administration because nobody in office as long as I have been alive has had the guts to implement this.

BUT and this is a BIG BUT, the Israelis do more than just look for bombers. They still have bomb sniffing dogs, pat downs, question every single passenger, meticulously search luggage, uzi carrying guards, metal detectors, taxi, bus and car searches, etc, etc. No method is 100% effective unless we stop all air travel; therefore we need to use multiple methods.

How many passengers pass through Ben Gurion each year compared to O'Hare or JFK or Atlanta or LAX or any one of hundreds of busy American airports? I can see it working somewhere like Sarasota/Bradenton (what a great little airport) but anywhere else would grind to a halt.

ford family

 

[DancingBear]

I don't know what to tell you. I see the benefit in being able to see if someone is carrying something on board a plane that they should not.

So do I. I also would see the benefit of doing the same thing on the DC Metro system (but that ain't gonna happen). We still need to look at the cost side of the equation, including opportunity costs. Have the 9-11 Commission's recommendations been implemented? How are our ports? What about the freight trains rolling through our major cities, loaded with chemicals and such?

 

[PrincessKsMom]

A few months back the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey tried out this equipment: Millimeter wave scanner. I believe it's something similar (if not the same) as what is being discussed here. And you know what? You had two options: get scanned or get lost. Worked for me. I'd rather be alive than dead and have them mention my "rights" in my obit. Terrorists don't give a crap about your rights. And your rights won't help you if one of them gets on a plane with a bomb.

 

[FireDancer]

This is not true. TSA screeners, airport police, and airline employees all recieve some amount of training on the importance of keeping an eye out for things that seem 'off'. Could we do more training on this? Probably.

I am not sure how much these people can really profile a passenger. I think nefarious analysts who specialize in that field should be spread around every airport. Something like that is very specialized and not something that can be taught in a seminar, it is learned through years of study in Psychology curriculum.

It would be like trusting the help desk guy with the database security for the FBI because they took a seminar, you want a specialist handling that kind of thing.

 

[LisaR]

How many passengers pass through Ben Gurion each year compared to O'Hare or JFK or Atlanta or LAX or any one of hundreds of busy American airports? I can see it working somewhere like Sarasota/Bradenton (what a great little airport) but anywhere else would grind to a halt.

ford family

You're right, there is a significant difference in size. But my feeling stands that we still need to implement multiple methods because even the safest airport in the world doesn't just have one way of keeping people safe.

 

[Mamu]

I had to go through the puffer scanner once. I laughed when the worker told me, they were checking for any kind of explosives, and how it worked. Although it's not funny.
I would feel safer if everyone had to go through the scanner.

 

[DawnCt1]

How many passengers pass through Ben Gurion each year compared to O'Hare or JFK or Atlanta or LAX or any one of hundreds of busy American airports? I can see it working somewhere like Sarasota/Bradenton (what a great little airport) but anywhere else would grind to a halt.

ford family

I believe that El Al passengers get the same scrutiny where ever they fly out of; JFK, LAX to Israel, etc.

 

[CowboyCO]

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