Multi-Site POS Revision Dated 01/19/19

Mumof4mice

Mouseketeer
Joined
May 4, 2018
I obtained a copy of the POS revision dated 01/19/19 from a quality assurance officer. ("I will consider buying points after getting a copy of the the POS revision" got me an instant appointment.)

If anyone on these boards is still considering Riviera on the basis that it will be the first of the DVC2 resorts (as I was), the revision comprehensively dispels that theory.

On the plus side - I'm a silver lining person - I look forward to buying cheap resale points when DVD gets around to building a new Epcot resort.
 

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crvetter

DIS Veteran
Joined
Nov 26, 2018
Looks like so far that Disney fully intends on this to be as restrictive as possible (at least while Riviera is not sold out). They essentially just added language to say new resorts when bought through resale can't convert Home Vacation Points to DVC Vacation Points unless directly bought from DVC, or an approved seller.

2nd Page Comments

The one large thing I noticed now is that they did add language on the second page, paragraph labeled #4 that DVC can, if it decides, allow for a fee to convert points bought on the resale markets or convert them for buying additional ownership interest. As of right now it appears that isn't allowed and would require them to amend the BVTC Disclosure document each time. It also says they can add additional restrictions to certain categories of Club Members, Club Members, or a set times (not sure what the set times means).

Section 3.1: They updated that the DVC reservation component requires admission to the club but admission to the club doesn't guarantee access to the DVC reservation component. I guess by grandfathering the original 14 to the reservation component of the original 14 to avoid potential litigation.

Section 3.3a: They said they may limit people that buy resale to reserving at other DVC resorts to certain time windows. I guess this means to reduce their booking window.

4th Page Comments

Says RCI access may not be allowed for resale buyers. I'm guessing this means that Riviera resale buyers won't be allowed to access it. I'm guessing this is required to balance demand and allow Disney to offload SSR to RCI as opposed to taking from Riviera. Probably something RCI required to continue the agreement.

These were my quick larger observations. Interested to see what others find. I'll probably read a bit more in detail later. Though I think they will restrict resale until after the resort is sold out then allow resale buyers to pay a fee to upgrade. But my suspicion is they won't allow all resale buyers to pay the fee to upgrade (just those that buy after a certain or something). Looks like they really want to discourage resale buyers in case future resorts "fail" or are unpopular. My guess it is their "poor attempt" to control inventory flooding from "unpopular" resorts and "cheap" points at resale. I feel that probably is what they are afraid of diminishing their brand. And they decided to do this also to double dip because if a resort is popular sure we will accept a fee and give you access to the Reservation Component.

Overall I don't like the changes but will follow their process closely to see what they end up doing once Riviera sells out.

And if resale tanks hard and really eats into their direct sales they will just "wave a wand" and undo all these changes for everyone. It implies that this will be allowed.
 
  • Bing Showei

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Sep 10, 2017
    Exhibit O-Public Offering Statment Text II - A DVD Disclosure Section

    DVD has reserved the right, as set forth in the Membership Agreement and the DVC Resort Agreement, to prohibit or limit persons who do not purchase an Ownership Interest directly from DVD, or from an approved seller, from participating in other aspects of Club membership or benefits including prohibiting or limiting access to other DVC Resorts through the DVC Reservation Component or restricting, limiting, or changing certain Home Resort Reservation Component or DVC Reservation Component reservation features.
    This seems to suggest they may change how resale owners at Riviera are able to book their own home resort. Resale owners may have a different set of rules to book at home. Am I reading that right?
     

    CMNJ

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Oct 8, 2014
    One thing that jumped out at me was that it said they could change, restrict, or limit home resort reservation components. To me that sounds like direct buyers could have say an 11 month window and resale could have 10 months (or less).
     

    CMNJ

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Oct 8, 2014
    This seems to suggest they may change how resale owners at Riviera are able to book their own home resort. Resale owners may have a different set of rules to book at home. Am I reading that right?
    Lol that’s exactly how I interpreted it too. I was posting at the same time.
    That’s scary
     

    CarolynFH

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jan 5, 2000
    This seems to suggest they may change how resale owners at Riviera are able to book their own home resort. Resale owners may have a different set of rules to book at home. Am I reading that right?
    I think they are. Maybe a different booking window? E.g. direct owners can book at 11 months, resale at 10 (or 9, or 8).

    @CMNJ - Jinx!
     

    crvetter

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Nov 26, 2018
    This seems to suggest they may change how resale owners at Riviera are able to book their own home resort. Resale owners may have a different set of rules to book at home. Am I reading that right?
    Interesting, I missed that component in my quick read through. But that certainly looks like they could do it. We haven’t seen them say they will but it certainly seems they could to me with that statement.
     

    TheMick424

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    Nov 19, 2009
    What about the language in section 3.3a “other seller approved by the Developer”. What do you think that means?
     

    Bing Showei

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Sep 10, 2017
    I think they are. Maybe a different booking window? E.g. direct owners can book at 11 months, resale at 10 (or 9, or 8).

    @CMNJ - Jinx!
    As this is an amendment to the MS-POS and applies to all resorts, nothing in the language makes this exclusively a Riviera issue.

    As I'm reading it, they're laying down the groundwork to differentiate between ALL resale and direct contracts across all resorts. POS has always guaranteed only 1-month advantage over non-home resort bookings.
     

    CMNJ

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Oct 8, 2014
    I think that just means DVD wants to keep all options open. If DVD ever wanted to make money on resales without bothering with ROFR and having to resell the contracts themselves they could offer an exclusive relationship with a resale company and allow resale purchasers from that company only to access those benefits......for steep fees of course lol
     

    CarolynFH

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jan 5, 2000
    As this is an amendment to the MS-POS and applies to all resorts, nothing in the language makes this exclusively a Riviera issue.

    As I'm reading it, they're laying down the groundwork to differentiate between ALL resale and direct contracts across all resorts. POS has always guaranteed only 1-month advantage over non-home resort bookings.
    I agree.
     

    crvetter

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Nov 26, 2018
    As this is an amendment to the MS-POS and applies to all resorts, nothing in the language makes this exclusively a Riviera issue.

    As I'm reading it, they're laying down the groundwork to differentiate between ALL resale and direct contracts across all resorts. POS has always guaranteed only 1-month advantage over non-home resort bookings.
    I’m suspecting many of the restrictions will only occur with respect to Riviera and forward. I think it would open them up to much litigation because the only thing our POS when everyone else bought said we shouldn’t purchase with the guarantee to future resorts. But i suppose anything is possible.
     

    CarolynFH

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Jan 5, 2000
    I think that just means DVD wants to keep all options open. If DVD ever wanted to make money on resales without bothering with ROFR and having to resell the contracts themselves they could offer an exclusive relationship with a resale company and allow resale purchasers from that company only to access those benefits......for steep fees of course lol
    Didn’t they have a referral relationship with Fidelity for a while?
     

    crvetter

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Nov 26, 2018
    As this is an amendment to the MS-POS and applies to all resorts, nothing in the language makes this exclusively a Riviera issue.

    As I'm reading it, they're laying down the groundwork to differentiate between ALL resale and direct contracts across all resorts. POS has always guaranteed only 1-month advantage over non-home resort bookings.
    Also the section you quoted is a disclosure not an actual rule. If you look at the following section, Exhibit O-Public Offering Statement-Section 11, it says these restrictions are defined in the DVC Resort Agreement and Membership Agreement. Those two documents a specific to each resort. So I suspect unless they change them for other resorts, which maybe they can’t without exposing themselves, I think we are protected in the classic 14 from cross booking and not differentiating resale and direct buyers for booking reasons.

    Remember the Resort POS take priority over this document. So what our DVC Resort Agreements and Memberships agreement, which are attached to the Resort POS dictate a resorts limitation. I was told to consider the multi-site POS as an aggregation/summary of all resort POS

    Once they record Riviera’s POS it will be interesting to see how these two documents are different than the previous. The prior Resort Agreements said any admitted to BVTC would be similar.
     
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    Mumof4mice

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    May 4, 2018
    This seems to suggest they may change how resale owners at Riviera are able to book their own home resort. Resale owners may have a different set of rules to book at home. Am I reading that right?
    I think what's more likely to happen is a lengthening of home resort window of future desirable resorts to encourage people to buy/add points. Last I checked, Hilton Club in New York opens to non home resort booking at 45 days - literally at the eleventh hour.
    Most other HGVC resorts have the same (longer) non-home booking windows.

    Not sure if Riviera resale buyers will be considered "Riviera" or "non-home". Surely they wouldn't be restricted to home only, and can only book very very late??

    If that's the case you are talking literally pennies to the dollar for resale value.
     
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    Mumof4mice

    Mouseketeer
    Joined
    May 4, 2018
    Disney has so far elected to grandfather existing contracts rather than sending in troops to exterminate the resale leper colony.

    I think our current resales are safe from meaningful, core value changes. Selling and rebuying at a later stage, however, is now riskier as we seem to be in a period of rapid revisions.
     

    Frederic Civish

    “I’m just here for the Ears.”
    Joined
    Apr 18, 2018
    I am going to post selected excerpts from the POS, below. This is the bulk of the POS but is not ALL of it. I have tried to focus most closely on the iteration of the Restrictions.

    I did not include EVERYTHING in the Offering statement. I have only included the things that I thought pertained most directly to current and future limitations.

    It clearly states the currently announced limitations, and then, essentially says, "AND, we can limit ANYTHING, because we can change the rules however we want, whenever we want, and we can even deny you the right to book at your own home resort."

    Take a look and see if you agree.

    Exhibit O.Public Offerinq Statement Text Il-A DVD Disclosures Section
    • Disclosure was added as follows: DVD has reserved the right, asset forth in the Membership Agreement and the DVC Resort
    Agreement, to prohibit or limit persons who do not purchase an Ownership Interest directly from DVD, or from an approved seller, from participating in other aspects of Club membership or benefits, including prohibiting or limiting access to other DVC Resorts through the DVC Reservation Component or restricting, limiting, or changing certain Home Resort Reservation Component or DVC Reservation Component reservation features. Such prohibitions, restrictions, limitations, or changes may adversely affect a
    Club Member's ability to resell the Club Member's Ownership Interest or at a value that the Club Member might seek. Club Members should refer to Exhibit "6" of this public offering statement for a description of any restrictions or limitations imposed on Club Members pursuant to DVD's reserved rights.

    Exhibit O-Public Offerinq Statement Text -Section 11-Restrictions Upon Transfer, Sale, Conveyance, or Leasinq of Ownership Interests
    Language was added as follows: From time to time, DVD, BVTC, DVCM, DVCHMC, or their affiliates may establish special Club Member benefit programs to enhance membership for Club Members. . . . These special programs are not a component of or an appurtenance to any Ownership Interest. Some or all Club Member benefit programs may be limited, modified, canceled, or terminated at any time. In addition, some or all of Club Member benefit programs may be offered solely respect to Ownership Interests purchased and owned by Club Members who purchased the Ownership Interests directly from DVD and these special programs, including those benefits marketed as incidental benefits . . . . . . . . .are solely for the original Club Members benefit and not for the benefit of that Club Members assigns or successors- in-interest. If a Club Member sells his or her Ownership Interest, these benefit programs do not automatically transfer to the buyer. The availability of these benefit programs may or may not be renewed or extended to such assigns or successors-in interest. DVD has reserved the right, as set forth in the Membership Agreement and the DVC Resort Agreement, to prohibit or limit persons who do not purchase an Ownership Interest directly from DVD, or from an approved seller, from participating in other aspects of Club membership or benefits, including prohibiting or limiting access to other DVC Resorts through the DVC Reservation Component or restricting, limiting, or changing certain Home Resort Reservation Component or DVC Reservation Component reservation features. Such prohibitions, restrictions, limitations, or changes may adversely affect a Club Member's ability to resell the Club Member's Ownership Interest or at a value that the Club Member might seek. Club Members should refer to Exhibit "6" of this public offering statement for a description of any restrictions or limitations imposed on Club.


    Exhibit 6-DVC Resort Restrictions and Limitations was added to the Public Offering Statement

    EXHIBIT "6" DVC Resort Restrictions and Limitations, Disneys Riviera Resort ("Riviera Resort')


    1. Club Members who purchase an Ownership Interest at Riviera Resort from a third party other than seller approved by DVD, are not permitted to convert their Riviera Resort Home Resort Vacation Points related to that Vacation Points for the purpose of reserving Vacation Homes at any other DVC Resort, including any future DVC Resorts, through the DVC Reservation Component
    Component.

    2. Effective January 19, 2019, Club Members at all other DVC Resorts, including any future DVC Resorts, who purchase an Ownership Interest at any DVC Resort other than Riviera Resort, including at any future DVC Resort, from a third party other than directly from DVD, or other seller approved by DVD, may not convert the Vacation Points related to the Ownership Interest from the other DVC Resort to DVC Vacation Points to reserve Vacation Homes at Riviera Resort through the DVC Reservation Component. Purchasers who purchase an Ownership Interest at any DVC Resort, other than Riviera Resort, from a Club Member who owned the Ownership Interest prior to January 19, 2019, are excluded from the prohibition set forth in this Paragraph 2.

    3. DVD and The TWDC Companies are excluded from these prohibitions, including for any Home Resort Vacation Points or DVC Vacation Points owned or controlled by DVD or any of The TWDC Companies, transferred to DVD or any of The TWDC Companies, or in any way acquired by DVD or any of The TWDC Companies, including through foreclosure or deed in lieu of foreclosure.

    4. DVD has reserved the right, in its discretion to modify or revoke implementation of any of these prohibitions, or then reinstate implementation of any of these prohibitions as it determines in its discretion from time to time, or permit such conversions for such Club Members who pay a fee or acquire an additional Ownership Interest at Riviera Resort or other DVC Resort, or to place additional prohibitions or limitations on certain Club Members including implementing such prohibitions or limitations to select Club Members or categories of Club Members or to set times. Such actions or decisions may be implemented by DVD, in its discretion, through a notice recorded in the public records, by requiring BVTC to make such an amendment to the BVTC Disclosure Document, or such other method, and such exercise of its reserved right shall not be subject to the approval or consent of any person, including the Association or any Club Member.

    Section 3.3 DVC Resort Aqreement. Corporate Membership, and Prohibitions or Limitations on Participation.

    . . . . Further, in consideration for the Developer's execution of the DVC Resort Agreement and the Developer's agreement to add the DVC Resort to the Club, the Developer may have reserved the right, in its discretion, to prohibit or limit certain Club Members from a particular DVC Resort from reserving Vacation Homes at some or all of the other DVC Resorts, including future DVC Resorts, through the DVC Reservation Component or to prohibit or limit certain Club Members from some or all of the other DVC Resorts, including future DVC Resorts, from accessing a particular DVC Resort, as it determines in its discretion from time to time. Such prohibitions or limitations may consist of the following or be applied as follows:

    a) Club Members who purchase an Ownership Interest at a particular DVC Resort from a third party other than directly from the Developer, or other seller approved by the Developer, may not be permitted to convert the Home Resort Vacation Points related to that Ownership Interest at that particular DVC Resort to DVC Vacation Points for the purpose of reserving Vacation Homes at some or all other DVC Resorts, including future DVC Resorts, through the DVC Reservation Component, or such Club Members may be limited to specific periods of time during which such Club Members may be permitted to reserve a Vacation Home at some or all other DVC Resorts, including or future DVC Resorts, through the DVC Reservation Component.

    b) The Developer may apply any prohibitions or limitations, including those set forth in subsection a. pursuant to certain terms and conditions as it establishes in its discretion, including applying the prohibitions or limitations to select Club Members or categories of Club Members (e.g., those who acquire an Ownership Interest at a particular DVC Resort after a date specified by the Developer); implementing such prohibitions or limitations for a defined period of time or for the duration of the DVC Resort; implementing, stopping, and re-implementing such prohibitions or limitations; or charging (or allowing an affiliate to charge) for exemptions or changes in the terms and conditions applied to such prohibitions or limitations.

    c) The Developer, in its discretion, may determine at any time to exclude itself (or any of its assigns or affiliates) from any prohibitions or limitations, including for any Home Resort Vacation Points or DVC Vacation Points owned or controlled by DVD or transferred to DVD (or any of the TWDC Companies).

    d) The Developer, in its discretion, may determine to exercise its reserved rights to implement any prohibitions or limitations through a notice recorded in the public records, by requiring BVTC to make such an amendment to this Disclosure Guide, or by such other method, and such exercise of its reserved rights shall not be subject to the approval or consent of any Association or any Club Member.

    EXHIBIT "A" DVC Resort Restrictions and Limitations
    Disneys Riviera Resort ("Riviera Resort")

    Club Members who purchase an Ownership Interest at Riviera Resort from a third party other than directly from Disney Vacation Development, Inc. ("DVD"), the developer of the Riviera Resort, or other seller approved by DVD, are not permitted to convert their Riviera Resort Home Resort Vacation Points related to that Ownership Interest to DVC Vacation Points for the purpose of reserving Vacation Homes at any other DVC Resort, including any future DVC Resorts, through the DVC Reservation Component.

    2. Effective January 19, 2019, Club Members at all other DVC Resorts, including any future DVC Resorts, who purchase an Ownership Interest at any DVC Resort other than Riviera Resort, including at any future DVC Resort, from a third party other than directly from DVD, or other seller approved by DVD, may not convert the Vacation Points related to the Ownership Interest from the other DVC Resort to DVC Vacation Points to reserve Vacation Homes at Riviera Resort through the DVC Reservation Component. Purchasers who purchase an Ownership Interest at any DVC Resort, other than Riviera Resort, from a Club Member who owned the Ownership Interest prior to January 19, 2019, are excluded from the prohibition set forth in this Paragraph 2.

    3. . . . . .

    4. DVD has reserved the right, in its discretion to modify or revoke implementation of any of these prohibitions, or then reinstate implementation of any of these prohibitions as it determines in its discretion from time to time, or permit such conversions for such Club Members who pay a fee or acquire an additional Ownership Interest at Riviera Resort or other DVC Resort, or to place additional prohibitions or limitations on certain Club Members including implementing such prohibitions or limitations to select Club Members or categories of Club Members or to set times. Such actions or decisions may be implemented by DVD, in its discretion, through a notice recorded in the public records, by requiring BVTC to make such an amendment to this Disclosure Document, or such other method, and such exercise of its reserved right shall not be subject to the approval or consent of any person, including the Association or any Club Member. All other terms of the Multi-site Public Offering Statement shall remain in full force and effect.
     

    ScubaCat

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    May 12, 2008
    Interesting how they leave it open to the idea of "authorized resellers" who can sell contracts with equivalent direct-purchase privileges. Also, as I suspected, they clearly state that they may offer expanded privileges to resale buyers with additional fees or direct-purchases of additional Riviera points. This is a common practice with many other timeshares, so it seems like an obvious method they could implement to extract more money from resale buyers: "Your points are kind of crappy and thus severely restricted, but you can convert them to really awesome points for a modest fee." They did leave the door open to limited trading, though, based on demand. So, Riviera resale owners might still be able to snag that 1BR at SSR in a pinch if nothing's available at home. I did not see where they could adjust the home resort priority for resale-owners, though. I suspect that could be legally tricky.

    I also enjoyed the little $25,000 annual Corporate Membership fee they gave themselves from all the owners. That's maybe $1-2 an owner, give or take, but hey, free cash!
     

    kniquy

    DIS Veteran
    Joined
    Dec 15, 2014
    E.g. direct owners can book at 11 months, resale at 10 (or 9, or 8).
    This would be a very sticky situation for any potential Riviera resale buyer. So you buy a resale at Rivera because you love the resort, but you are locked into only being able to book at say 5 months. Between 11 month and the 7 month window you will have all direct Rivera owners booking, then at 7 months you will have direct buyers of other resorts and those grandfathered resale buyers, so 5 months comes along and there is only spotty availability, if any (depending upon the time of year). This could essentially make the resale contract totally worthless when you are unable to book anything with your points.

    If DVC really wanted to eradicate the resale market then why wouldn't they put in a buy back clause? Where if you want out you can either sell back to DVC (at there determined amount) or you can gift to a family member. Completely eliminating the resale market.
    I think they do benefit from the resale market in that they have all these points/contracts which they already sold and made their money. Plus they have all these resale members paying MF.

    I guess their hold back from putting in such a clause would be if they were to take back everything then DVC could potentially be sitting on thousands of points and no one paying MF.
     

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