I want to speak to Jim Lewis, so why can't I?

[bobbyg4eagle]

There are posters that I always enjoy reading even when I don't have a particular question because their knowledge and opinion/experience is outstanding (Dean, JimMIA, crisi, Brian ? U of M professor?, Chuck Mod...number of people left out here...). If you want a detailed analysis and not a lot of fluff, this is the place.

Best.

Thank you for the posters' names and I agree.

 

[chalee94]

Pretty sure the OP was torched enough. Poor OP.

if you've ever been in line to check in and witnessed someone like the OP blow up and rant at a castmember about what they are entitled to as a result of their investment in DVC, you might not think so...but opinions vary.

there are reasonable and appropriate ways to register dissatisfaction with DVC. "i demand to speak to jim lewis immediately!" is not on that list for most of us.

 

[Chuck S]

What will be interesting to watch unfold, is DVC going to take further steps to enhance direct at the expense of resale, and/or curb DVC members flexibility and/or perks to the benefit of cash and/or non-members (which would be worse imho).

DVC needs those cash guests in order to maintain the flexibilty of the program. Without cash guests, there would be no trading to cruises, Adventures by Disney, Concierge Collection, Buena Vista Collection, etc.

When members trade to those options, a DVC room is turned over to cash to offest the cost of the trade. No cash guests, no trades.

 

[mjc2003]

OK, didn't know there was a bad cliche quota, but I agree I've used enough for not just a week but a whole year...

What will be interesting to watch unfold, is DVC going to take further steps to enhance direct at the expense of resale, and/or curb DVC members flexibility and/or perks to the benefit of cash and/or non-members (which would be worse imho).
When faced with competition, corporations tend to either increase the attractiveness of their product to the consumer and/or decrease the attractiveness of the competition. I think it was Rockefeller who championed free market competitiveness, until he created his monopoly in oil services, and then said, "Competition is bad".

Dang it, I think I just used my weekly/yearly quota of and/or...

Thanks again for your insights

The reality is that resale isn't competition per se b/c Disney needs the turnover on these memberships, and people who can no longer sustain their memberships might stop visiting, and therefore are not spending money on site. This board also gives a somewhat skewed perspective as to the where-with-all of the DVC buyer, b/c this is really just a sampling. Many buy without doing their homework. And, some do a cursory amount of legwork. So, in response, it's not so much about creating a vast difference between resale and direct, but instead it's about creating the PERCEPTION that there's a vast difference. Awhile back there was an informal poll here as to how people used their points, and at least 90+% only used them at DVC resorts. This would mean that, in most cases, resale is clearly a better option. However, people buying in are not acutely aware of usage patterns, and Disney, in essence, is taking advantage of this (this is business, after all).

The other element to this is, Disney has ultimate autonomy over this entire "game" in that they can exercise ROFR at any time and create a floor, albeit maybe artificial, in the resale world. If they want to drive more direct buying, all they have to do is start snatching up contracts under a certain price (they've done this at BCV and created a price point of around $84 pp). The logical question is then, why aren't they doing this? Probably because of a combination of reasons, namely that they know that they need to let the free market control supply/demand b/c any artificial intervention could lead to a glut of points, and no buyers. Another reason would be b/c they are not "threatened" by the resale market, b/c a lot of sales are still coming direct.


By the way, I've been to the Masters. Quite a site.

 

[bobbyg4eagle]

DVC needs those cash guests in order to maintain the flexibilty of the program. Without cash guests, there would be no trading to cruises, Adventures by Disney, Concierge Collection, Buena Vista Collection, etc.

When members trade to those options, a DVC room is turned over to cash to offest the cost of the trade. No cash guests, no trades.

Again, pardon my lack of knowledge on this subject. I am understanding of the need for cash guests, just not sure how DVC balances the availability of cash guest rooms versus DVC member rooms. Not a problem for those that schedule 11 months out or in some cases 7 months out. Or could it be with no accountability? Is it possible that a cash guest could book a year out 2 bedroom MKV at BLT for high price making it unavailable for DVC member?
What about these 42% discounts to FL resident at villas? Could that get over booked, reducing availability to DVC member who prefer short notice bookings?

Just curious if this policy/practice is available in writing?

 

[dianeschlicht]

if you've ever been in line to check in and witnessed someone like the OP blow up and rant at a castmember about what they are entitled to as a result of their investment in DVC, you might not think so...but opinions vary.

there are reasonable and appropriate ways to register dissatisfaction with DVC. "i demand to speak to jim lewis immediately!" is not on that list for most of us.

Those kinds of blow ups are exactly what I was thinking of Chalee. I've witnessed them too, and most of them are totally unreasonable. I would never assume that I could speak directly to Jim Lewis any other way than through his "people". That is why the best advice is to write a letter and follow through on the responses as appropriate.

 

[Granny]

5 pages later and no sign of the OP. I agree with Diane and some others who think this was a little .

 

[disneynutz]

The reality is that resale isn't competition per se b/c Disney needs the turnover on these memberships, and people who can no longer sustain their memberships might stop visiting, and therefore are not spending money on site.

I don't agree. Disney puts 98% of their effort into selling new contracts, not keeping existing owners happy. The money is in the new contracts, that's why they never offer incentives for older proprieties and they let Fidelity sell their resales. They don't want their Guides selling older proprieties that's why only new projects are mentioned during the sales presentations.

The majority of owners will not pay their dues every year and not book a room. If they decide to sell, someone else takes their place.

There are 250,000 DVC memberships. Disney parks and resorts had 119 million visitors in 2009, I don't really think that the DVC has much impact on park income.

Bill

 

[bobbyg4eagle]

The reality is that resale isn't competition per se b/c Disney needs the turnover on these memberships, and people who can no longer sustain their memberships might stop visiting, and therefore are not spending money on site.


By the way, I've been to the Masters. Quite a site.

Ok, I am curious if you think this is a factor is DVC exec's equation. Do long time member's eventually spend less on extras while enjoying the facilities? More preparing food in room, less merchandise... sort of a been there done that perspective. Still vacationing on property but not dropping alot of cash on extras like the new members with emotional high and small kid wonderment opening up the pocket books. How many pins does one really need?

Could they have tracked/be tracking expenditures by members and analyzing to see whose spending what where? Not conspiracy theory, just good business. Could that explain lack of ROFR? A new purchaser or add on is better for overall Disney growth.

This is way OT here, maybe there is a tread somewhere, or maybe nobody really cares about this stuff.


I need a nap after all this thinking

 

[vicki_c]

Again, pardon my lack of knowledge on this subject. I am understanding of the need for cash guests, just not sure how DVC balances the availability of cash guest rooms versus DVC member rooms. Not a problem for those that schedule 11 months out or in some cases 7 months out. Or could it be with no accountability? Is it possible that a cash guest could book a year out 2 bedroom MKV at BLT for high price making it unavailable for DVC member?
What about these 42% discounts to FL resident at villas? Could that get over booked, reducing availability to DVC member who prefer short notice bookings?

Just curious if this policy/practice is available in writing?

Cash bookings & points bookings are two separate inventories so it doesn't work the way you are suggesting. If all the DVC ownerships at a property have been sold, and no one traded out using the Disney collection or RCI, there would be no rooms available for booking on cash (or very very few from the breakage inventory, I guess). It could not happen that Disney reservations decides to book all the rooms for cash and not leave any for DVC members to book on points - DVC members own those rooms and the travel company arm or the resort only gets them when DVC decides.

(Of course that is an intentionally simplistic explanation but that's basically how it works.)

 

[tjkraz]

Again, pardon my lack of knowledge on this subject. I am understanding of the need for cash guests, just not sure how DVC balances the availability of cash guest rooms versus DVC member rooms. Not a problem for those that schedule 11 months out or in some cases 7 months out. Or could it be with no accountability? Is it possible that a cash guest could book a year out 2 bedroom MKV at BLT for high price making it unavailable for DVC member?
What about these 42% discounts to FL resident at villas? Could that get over booked, reducing availability to DVC member who prefer short notice bookings?

Just curious if this policy/practice is available in writing?

DVC has the right to set aside villa rooms equivalent to:

1. Their own ownership in each resort. DVD ownership is greatest at the newer resorts in the form of unsold points. Simply put, if only 80% of the points at Bay Lake Tower have been purchased by Members, only 80% of the villas will be available for points bookings. Disney is free to offer the other 20% for cash reservations.

Inventories tend to be largest at newer properties but they also acquire points at older resorts via Right of First Refusal, foreclosures, etc.

2. The other primary source comes in the form of trade outs by members. When an owner at the Beach Club uses 600 points for a Disney Cruise, the net effect is that DVC can select 600 points' worth of BCV accommodations which are made available to cash guests.

DVC is subject to oversight by independent auditors and the Florida timeshare bureau so the assumption is that they are being equitable in their methods of choosing cash rooms. Searches of the Walt Disney World reservation site suggest that villa accommodations are available to cash guest during peak season, value season and everything in between.

 

[bobbyg4eagle]

That make sense now. Thanks

 

[tjkraz]

Ok, I am curious if you think this is a factor is DVC exec's equation. Do long time member's eventually spend less on extras while enjoying the facilities? More preparing food in room, less merchandise... sort of a been there done that perspective. Still vacationing on property but not dropping alot of cash on extras like the new members with emotional high and small kid wonderment opening up the pocket books. How many pins does one really need?

Could they have tracked/be tracking expenditures by members and analyzing to see whose spending what where? Not conspiracy theory, just good business. Could that explain lack of ROFR? A new purchaser or add on is better for overall Disney growth.

I think you're giving far too much credence to the big picture in your thinking. Yes DVC and the theme parks fall under the same Disney umbrella, but each is a separate division of the company with their own goals and objectives.

Disney Vacation Development exists to build and sell timeshares. Their performance is evaluated based upon success in achieving that goal.

Parks & Resorts is the division which oversees the theme parks and cash-related bookings at the hotels. They want to sell tickets, t-shirts, hotel rooms and so on.

DVD and P&R are pretty far apart in their goals and objectives. Many times you could even say they are at odds because every time someone buys into DVC, it effectively eliminates a cash hotel guest.

I think it's fair to conclude that folks spend less at gift shops, restaurants and probably even theme park admission over time. But Parks & Resorts doesn't have the ability to influence ROFR decisions. Meanwhile DVD knows that resales are an increasing threat to their own direct sales efforts.

Disney Vacation Club is the third entity, and in many ways they are caught in the middle of DVD and P&R. DVC exists to manage the timeshare program: reservations, banking, borrowing, annual dues collections, etc. Most--if not all--of the perks and benefits afforded to Disney Vacation Club members are negotiated between DVC and Parks & Resorts.

 

[LUVMICKEY]

DVC needs those cash guests in order to maintain the flexibilty of the program. Without cash guests, there would be no trading to cruises, Adventures by Disney, Concierge Collection, Buena Vista Collection, etc.

When members trade to those options, a DVC room is turned over to cash to offest the cost of the trade. No cash guests, no trades.

Wow, I always wondered just how that worked and I never seen it explained that way. I feel like I should have realized that.

 

[crisi]

That make sense now. Thanks

There is a third, very small, category of points DVC turns over to CRO....if a room isn't booked 60(?) days out, DVC turns that room over to CRO and CRO tries to rent it for cash. If they can, then DVC gets at least some of the money. This offsets member dues and shows up in your statement as "breakage income."

This is also (we believe) the category of rooms that DVC CMs can pull back from if you call on short notice. If you check the Disney website and there is a room available for cash at BCV, if that room is developer inventory or compensation for a trade, DVC can't reclaim it. But if its breakage, we think that they can.

One thing to be aware of is that a lot of the insightful analysis you get here - some of it we know - its in our documents or we have the information from reliable sources inside Disney. Some of it is speculation based on the information we DO know.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

Parks & Resorts is the division which oversees the theme parks and cash-related bookings at the hotels. They want to sell tickets, t-shirts, hotel rooms and so on.

DVD and P&R are pretty far apart in their goals and objectives. Many times you could even say they are at odds because every time someone buys into DVC, it effectively eliminates a cash hotel guest.

Actually, Disney Vacation Development, Inc. is a subsidiary that falls under the Walt Disney Parks and Resorts business sector.

Jim Lewis (President of DVC) reports to Tom Staggs (chairman of of Walt Disney Parks and Resorts) and probably reports "by dotted line" to Meg Crofton (President of the Walt Disney World Resort). At least that's how I understand it. (If anyone knows of a layer between Lewis and Staggs, please provide the details.)

The financials of the companies that operate under the Disney Vacation Club brand name (including Disney Vacation Development, Inc., Disney Vacation Club Management Corp., DVD Financing, Inc., and Buena Vista Trading Company) are reported as part of the Walt Disney Parks and Resorts business sector.

That said, I agree with the point that tjkraz is making. The executives of Disney Vacation Development, Inc. are responsible for running a profitable timeshare development business. Jim Lewis has to do what is best for his area of responsibility, not necessarily what is best for Epcot or Downtown Disney or Disney's Pop Century Resort.

There are other executives who are responsible for other business units of Parks and Resorts, such as the theme parks at WDW and the hotels at WDW. There are P&Ls at various levels, with executives expected to maximize each of those P&Ls.

There can be legitimate cases when business units are at odds with each other, and when the success in one business unit can hurt another. By the time it gets to Tom Staggs (and from there to Robert Iger), what matters are the combined totals.

 

[tjkraz]

There can be legitimate cases when business units are at odds with each other, and when the success in one business unit can hurt another. By the time it gets to Tom Staggs (and from there to Robert Iger), what matters are the combined totals.

Yes, you are right. I did over-simplify a bit in terms of describing the heirarchy. DVD/DVC falls under Parks and Resorts. Probably the closest peers we could draw to Jim Lewis (DVC President) would be Meg Crofton (WDW President) and George Kalgordis (DL President.)

And just to build upon what you said, it isn't Jim Lewis' job to sell t-shirts or park tickets. Most of his performance is evaluated on timeshare sales.

Similarly, Crofton and Kalgordis have to answer for theme park and hotel performance, not timeshare sales.

It's no different than any other large company with multiple divisions which are often competing with one another for customers and their funds. At times synergy can be found and mutually-beneficial deals negotiated. Other times those managers simply do what is best for their own domain.

 

[Anthony1971]

if you've ever been in line to check in and witnessed someone like the OP blow up and rant at a castmember about what they are entitled to as a result of their investment in DVC, you might not think so...but opinions vary.

there are reasonable and appropriate ways to register dissatisfaction with DVC. "i demand to speak to jim lewis immediately!" is not on that list for most of us.

If this were only at check in.......
I am a DVC memeber I can _____________________

Honestly the customer who pays full price for everything deserves a little extra... that is what allows others to pay less who are more savy with spending their money

Pay full fare on an airline and you will get a free first class upgrade on you next flight as well as other free things...... if no one pays full no one gets a discount.

 

[Horace Horsecollar]

Honestly the customer who pays full price for everything deserves a little extra... that is what allows others to pay less who are more savy with spending their money

DVC members AND cash guests have paid "full price" for their resort accommodations. They've just paid in two different ways.

DVC involves a large up-front financial commitment and an ongoing financial commitment year after year. It expensive, but in the long run, it can work out well for people who use their DVC points every year.

Cash guests often pay a high nightly rate, especially at deluxe resorts. But there's no long-term commitment. Next year, those guest can go to London or San Francisco or Yellowstone.

Regardless of whether a guest uses DVC points, pays the full rack rate, or a discounted promotional rate, the guest should get the same courteous, efficient treatment at the check-in counter and elsewhere at the resort. None of these guests deserve superior or inferior treatment.

Now if a guest pays a premium for Concierge service, and that service explicitly includes a special check-in location, that's fine. We're now talking about a different "product."

 

[Sammie]

Actually, Disney Vacation Development, Inc. is a subsidiary that falls under the Walt Disney Parks and Resorts business sector.

Jim Lewis (President of DVC) reports to Tom Staggs (chairman of of Walt Disney Parks and Resorts) and probably reports "by dotted line" to Meg Crofton (President of the Walt Disney World Resort). At least that's how I understand it. (If anyone knows of a layer between Lewis and Staggs, please provide the details.)

The financials of the companies that operate under the Disney Vacation Club brand name (including Disney Vacation Development, Inc., Disney Vacation Club Management Corp., DVD Financing, Inc., and Buena Vista Trading Company) are reported as part of the Walt Disney Parks and Resorts business sector.

That said, I agree with the point that tjkraz is making. The executives of Disney Vacation Development, Inc. are responsible for running a profitable timeshare development business. Jim Lewis has to do what is best for his area of responsibility, not necessarily what is best for Epcot or Downtown Disney or Disney's Pop Century Resort.

There are other executives who are responsible for other business units of Parks and Resorts, such as the theme parks at WDW and the hotels at WDW. There are P&Ls at various levels, with executives expected to maximize each of those P&Ls.

There can be legitimate cases when business units are at odds with each other, and when the success in one business unit can hurt another. By the time it gets to Tom Staggs (and from there to Robert Iger), what matters are the combined totals.

Al Weiss, President of Worldwide Operations, Walt Disney Parks and Resorts is between Lewis and Staggs