I finally saw Fahreinheit 9/11 last night

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by nuke
See that's the great thing about America. We can say to the Pres-Hey you suck, we don't agree with your policies.
Doesn't mean you don't love the country. Just like if you oppose the war in Iraq it doesn't mean you don't support the soldiers that are fighting in it.

ITA on all counts, and my opinion of Michael Moore's "love of country" has nothing whatsoever to do with his opposition to President Bush or his opposition to the war. It does however have everything to do with statements he has made about this country, about how stupid Americans are, about how we've created more misery in the world than any other nation on Earth, etc.

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by jennyanydots
You can love your country and hate the policies it has implemented. I truly think Moore loves this country, but hates the current administration.

If that makes him anti-american, Lord help us all.

Of course you can love your country and hate the current administration. Please read what I posted in my previous reply to nuke.

 

[infobahn]

What I find funny is all of the people who hate Moore and his views use the same obfuscations they accuse him of using against Bush.

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by infobahn
What I find funny is all of the people who hate Moore and his views use the same obfuscations they accuse him of using against Bush.

Such as?

 

[jrydberg]

I don't hate Moore, but I'm not going to spend money to see his political op/ed, documentary, whatever you want to call it. 9 out of 10 reviewers may have given it a thumbs up, but I'd bet the same could be said about any number of movies I have no desire to see

As to what's bad that can come out of it, please don't take this the wrong way, but Leni Riefenstahl's "Triumph of the Will" seems to take a similar approach to film making. I'm not equating what Michael Moore's propaganda supports to Naziism in any way whatsoever, but the point being that such films can cause considerable harm.

 

[faithinkarma]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Such as?

How about?

He hates big business - except his own.

hating how some big businesses have behaved, and pointing it out, is not hating big business

He hates the exploitation of the common man - except his own.

Whom exactly has he exploited?

He hates any expression of free speech that disagrees with his own.

clearly he wanted to stir up free speech, not shut it off

By his actions, the only thing Michael Moore loves is Michael Moore.

I don't even know how to respond to this one

 

[faithinkarma]

I don't hate Moore, but I'm not going to spend money to see his political op/ed, documentary, whatever you want to call it. 9 out of 10 reviewers may have given it a thumbs up, but I'd bet the same could be said about any number of movies I have no desire to see

If so many are willing to passionately embrace a stance against a movie based on what others have said about it, rather than risk being corrupted by seeing it for themselves.....exactly who is guilty of propaganda?

 

[jrydberg]

It has nothing to do with risking being corrupted by it. I'm not at all concerned about that. As I've said in the past, based on Moore's own descriptions and accounts of his movie, I'm confident that I don't want to spend $8 to see it. It's really that simple for me. I'm perfectly willing to discuss any issues that arise from the movie with anyone. I wouldn't pay $8 to see a Rush Limbaugh "documentary" either.

 

[AirForceRocks]

It has nothing to do with risking being corrupted by it. I'm not at all concerned about that. As I've said in the past, based on Moore's own descriptions and accounts of his movie, I'm confident that I don't want to spend $8 to see it. It's really that simple for me. I'm perfectly willing to discuss any issues that arise from the movie with anyone. I wouldn't pay $8 to see a Rush Limbaugh "documentary" either.

Same here. I've never been a fan of Michael Moore's, so why in the world would I put money in his pocket? It's what I call my "Michelin Tire Rule".

 

[faithinkarma]

But you are both willing to adopt very strong opinions on a movie you have not seen. Surely you will grant that it is very difficult for those of us to explain how we reacted to someone who has not had any first hand reaction to it.

I said right after I saw this movie that it was not what I had anticipated. It was an emotional experience which is very hard to explain. It challenged me. I came out of the theater in a bit of a daze....wanting to talk about it, and wanting to be alone with my own thoughts at the same time.

I had been in the mall when the viewers of the previous showing were exiting the theater. I was trying to get a "feeling" from their faces. They were deadpan...silent....it gave me the impression the movie would be a let down. After viewing the movie, I imagine I had the exact same look on my face.

Perhaps this will make it a bit more clear why it is frustrating to try to discuss this movie with people who have not shared the experience.....and why, when you say you do not need to see it to know, we think you are mistaken.

 

[ThreeCircles]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Yeah, I've always thought his comments about America committing so many acts of evil and oppression throughout the world demonstrated a real love of this country.

Yeah, we all know that wanting to make the United States a better country is real unpatriotic and demonstrates lack of love for one's country!

I suppose those that condemned slavery when it was an institutionalized part of this country really didn't love the United States, huh Brenda?

It has always seemed to me that those that go blindly along with everything that their country is and does are not patriotic but nationalistic.

 

[jrydberg]

But see, here's the thing... not to be too blunt, but I don't care what your reaction was to the movie. That's your business and I'm not going to debate that with you. Who am I to say that your reaction to the movie is not appropriate? On a side note, if I were concerned about how effective it was as a propaganda piece, then I'd be more interested on how you reacted to it.

I have strong opinions about the issues involved. I have strong opinions about Moore using selective editing to, at the very least, cloud things. I have strong opinions on the allegations Moore makes.

There is no need for me to see the movie to comment intelligently on such things.

 

[AirForceRocks]

But you are both willing to adopt very strong opinions on a movie you have not seen.

When you see Michael Moore go on TV and say "This movie exposes A, B & C" and you know that A, B & C are either untrue or misrepresentations of the truth, why do I need to see the movie in order to form an opinion of the "facts" contained in it? It may indeed be a well made film, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm not going to put money in the pocket of a man that I disagree with on almost every issue.

Perhaps this will make it a bit more clear why it is frustrating to try to discuss this movie with people who have not shared the experience.....and why, when you say you do not need to see it to know, we think you are mistaken.

Personally, I have no desire to discuss any kind of shared experience about the movie. I'm more interested in discussing the misrepresentations and lies that are paraded as facts in the movie. And no, you don't have to see the movie in order to do that, all you have to do is listen to an interview with Michael Moore.

I

 

[AirForceRocks]

Originally posted by ThreeCircles
Yeah, we all know that wanting to make the United States a better country is real unpatriotic and demonstrates lack of love for one's country!

I suppose those that condemned slavery when it was an institutionalized part of this country really didn't love the United States, huh Brenda?

It has always seemed to me that those that go blindly along with everything that their country is and does are not patriotic but nationalistic.

Michael Moore has no interest in making the United States a better country. His only interest is in making as much money as possible by trying to make the United States look as bad as possible. And more power to him - that's capitalism at his best. But it's more than a little hypocritical to decry the decadent capitalist system while running to the bank to cash the checks generated by that system.

 

[Jimbo]

Originally posted by faithinkarma
But you are both willing to adopt very strong opinions on a movie you have not seen. Surely you will grant that it is very difficult for those of us to explain how we reacted to someone who has not had any first hand reaction to it.

This is a rehash of what I posted in a previous thread, but here it is again...

One example of a problem I have with the movie is the section on the bin Laden family leaving the country after 9/11. Many people that have seen the film are left with the impression that the FBI was prevented from questioning them, or that they left prior to the lifting of the prohibition of flights in the country. That is not what happened, though.

When challenged on this, Moore says that the movie never makes that accusation. Certain posters here have said that if you did get that impression, it's because you weren't paying attention. But among those "many people" are some noted professional movie reviewers, people that watch movies for a living. Certainly they paid attention, right?

So either Moore was sloppy in the editing process, or he's being willfully deceitful on this point. I think he's deceiving people, and I'm disgusted by it and him.

 

[ThreeCircles]

Originally posted by AirForceRocks
Michael Moore has no interest in making the United States a better country. His only interest is in making as much money as possible by trying to make the United States look as bad as possible. And more power to him - that's capitalism at his best. But it's more than a little hypocritical to decry the decadent capitalist system while running to the bank to cash the checks generated by that system.

Hmmm... Nothing but opinion so I can't really debate anything.

But I do disagree with many of your opinions as a great many others do as well, I would guess.

However, back to your original statement, pointing out wrongs and disagreeing with one's country hardly means that one doesn't love it or is unpatriotic in the least. At least in the real world.

 

[AirForceRocks]

Hmmm... Nothing but opinion so I can't really debate anything.

Are you really saying with a straight face that Michael Moore has not been and is not a huge critic of the American capitalist system?

 

[faithinkarma]

One example of a problem I have with the movie is the section on the bin Laden family leaving the country after 9/11. Many people that have seen the film are left with the impression that the FBI was prevented from questioning them, or that they left prior to the lifting of the prohibition of flights in the country. That is not what happened, though.

Who? What people? It was certainly not my impression that the FBI was " not allowed" to question them. It was however my impression that the FBI chose not to question ALL of them, which I take issue with. Are yu suggesting MM should have playyed to the lowest common denominator so that no one misinterpreted what he was saying?

Again, you are willing to argue this point based on what others have said.....how can it be a viable argument..surely it would be more interesting at least if you could say you saw for yourself how this evidence was presented.

And on that note I am done. Once again, someone who saw the movie started a thread to talk about their reaction, and people who have not seen it are telling her how wrong she is about what she saw. Some think there is a point in arguing what they have not seen for themselves. I do not. I regret being foolish enough to enter this discussion yet again.

 

[jrydberg]

Some think there is a point in arguing what they have not seen for themselves.

I've seen, heard and read plenty about the issues arising from the movie. No need to see Michael Moore's account to discuss these issues intelligently.

 

[faithinkarma]

OK..I am weak..I have one thing to add...it is one thing to discuss the issues intelligently...that is not the same thing as discussing how MM presented the issues.