Has anyone ever heard of the National Guard being requested into a school? (SINCE the epic case in Little Rock nearly 70 years ago)

[LuvOrlando]

Are there people saying don't fix things because all is well as it is?

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Are there people saying don't fix things because all is well as it is?

Are you saying you haven't been reading the comments? Because I get completely the opposite of what you are saying above

 

[lanejudy]

To assert it is ok is an absurd idea to me, that is is ok for them to fight their way out like some juvenile Fight Club.

What?! Please quote where I stated anything that might be construed as condoning fighting or violence at school.

The title of the thread is "Has anyone ever heard of the National Guard being requested into a school?" and the news item linked is about trying to keep students safe, with the MassGuard assisting with security. You seemed to suggest that the National Guard should not be called to help and instead simply send the troublemakers to online school. My responses have been in regard to online school. In fact, the bulk of what I've posted is simply informing you that online school is not an option in every community.

What do you see as an answer, I think most people would like a better answer.

I don't have a better answer and never claimed to have one. It's a problem with society at large and I agree it's a big problem that is only getting worse. However I do support that school requesting help from the National Guard. Likely their own local police force does not have adequate resources to lend to the school, nor does the school have adequate finances to hire resource officers and/or security, assuming there were appropriate job applicants. An immediate response is needed at the school. Longer term the school board and community can work on budget and staffing. YOUR answer seems to be "send the bad kids home" which only perpetuates the larger societal problem and solves nothing.

 

[sam_gordon]

[/QUOTE]

Well this is what I find when I Google the question about windows in classrooms
Safety Regulations: Safety regulations and building codes often dictate the placement and size of windows in schools. Certain areas, such as classrooms and hallways, may have specific requirements for emergency exits and natural light access.

I do know that the company I was working at built a new building in 1989 that had an internal conference room with no windows. Fire code required that the room have a light that could not be turned off, and emergency lighting in it. Drove the boss nuts because we used it for displaying overhead presentations and he wanted it completely dark in there and we couldn't do that. And that was an office, not a school. I can see the rules being stricter for a school.

Your quote doesn't say they're required, much less in every room. You worked at TV stations. Did the studios have windows? All the control rooms?

 

[sam_gordon]

Are there people saying don't fix things because all is well as it is?

No one is saying that. I think most are simply saying there are no easy answers.

 

[Magical2017]

Unfortunately some schools are going this way.
Our high school has a new policy that to discipline the students who fight or cause serious problems. They can only be put in detention where they can listen to whatever music they want, visit with friends, and they have a councelor in there to help them if they feel bad because they have detention. No more dismissing students from school due to bad behavior. Nothing is done to deter these students. The lack of discipline in some areas of this society is now starting to show. I would home school my kids if I had any that age anymore. It's very sad and needs to be addressed.

How do the parents feel about this new policy? Were they included in the decision making process?

While I don't agree with letting them listen to music and visit with friends, I do prefer in-school suspensions in many instances (not for violent offenders). One reason is that we do not know the home life of the student or what is happening within the home (in some cases, students are homeless or live in dangerous environments). The other is because some students do have access to wifi, tv, etc. who would just go home and play X-Box. I like the idea of keeping their butts in school, with work they must do. This of course puts an even further burden on the school system to have to supervise these students, and it does not guarantee they will even do the work.

 

[tvguy]

Your quote doesn't say they're required, much less in every room. You worked at TV stations. Did the studios have windows? All the control rooms?
[/QUOTE]
No. But they had the required "light that could not be turned off" and battery powered emergency lighting because they didn't. Oh, and a generator so the power was never off more than 30 seconds. The the information I quoted is specific to schools and classrooms, not TV stations.

 

[sam_gordon]

No. But they had the required "light that could not be turned off" and battery powered emergency lighting because they didn't. Oh, and a generator so the power was never off more than 30 seconds. The the information I quoted is specific to schools and classrooms, not TV stations.

Then I go back to what you posted does NOT require windows in classrooms. How about posting the link to where you got that snippet?

 

[tvguy]

Then I go back to what you posted does NOT require windows in classrooms. How about posting the link to where you got that snippet?

Just Google it, It comes right up. Multiple links. Who knew windows in school classrooms was such a popular topic.

 

[sam_gordon]

Just Google it, It comes right up. Multiple links. Who knew windows in school classrooms was such a popular topic.

First link... https://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/fa/sf/title5regs.asp
This is an excerpt of California Code of Regulations, Title 5 that relate to school facilities construction.. The word "window" appears twice.

1. Windows, marking boards, sinks, drinking fountains, and furniture are appropriate heights for kindergarten-age students.

1. Window treatment allows entrance of daylight but does not cause excessive glare or heat gain.

There's nothing about windows being required. I would think it would come up in a document about "school facilities construction". So, unless you post other links, I think it's pretty settled.

 

[LuvOrlando]

What?! Please quote where I stated anything that might be construed as condoning fighting or violence at school.

The title of the thread is "Has anyone ever heard of the National Guard being requested into a school?" and the news item linked is about trying to keep students safe, with the MassGuard assisting with security. You seemed to suggest that the National Guard should not be called to help and instead simply send the troublemakers to online school. My responses have been in regard to online school. In fact, the bulk of what I've posted is simply informing you that online school is not an option in every community.



I don't have a better answer and never claimed to have one. It's a problem with society at large and I agree it's a big problem that is only getting worse. However I do support that school requesting help from the National Guard. Likely their own local police force does not have adequate resources to lend to the school, nor does the school have adequate finances to hire resource officers and/or security, assuming there were appropriate job applicants. An immediate response is needed at the school. Longer term the school board and community can work on budget and staffing. YOUR answer seems to be "send the bad kids home" which only perpetuates the larger societal problem and solves nothing.

What is the larger societal problem as you see it? Seems to me the problem at hand is innocent kids aren't being protected from abuse of peers, are being denied an education and the parents are at wits end to think they have no choice but to be asking for the military to restore order.

How do you think this is going to play out? Is the military really a long term solution? What happens when the Guardsmen leave or do you see a permanent military installation at the school, and what does that do to the community?

There are videos of this sort of thing all over the US, it is rampant, doing nothing is not ok for these minors at least not ok to me and I do have a serious issue with the military in schools as a solution to behavior problems of children. These service people are not vetted for being around children, this should not be permitted to devolve to civil unrest... in schools.

The poor kids and their families, such a sad thing.

 

[CdnCarrie]

Yes, my first thought was, who hasn't heard of the National Guard being called to a school?

Me for one. Is this really common in the USA? Never heard of this happening in Canada. Military called into a school?

 

[tvguy]

First link... https://www.cde.ca.gov/ls/fa/sf/title5regs.asp
This is an excerpt of California Code of Regulations, Title 5 that relate to school facilities construction.. The word "window" appears twice.

1. 
   

There's nothing about windows being required. I would think it would come up in a document about "school facilities construction". So, unless you post other links, I think it's pretty settled.

No fire code links? Yup, its settled.

 

[porschegrl]

Me for one. Is this really common in the USA? Never heard of this happening in Canada. Military called into a school?

I was referring to the historical event that tvguy posted.

 

[NotUrsula]

I think codes on the windows situation vary, but I know that codes have been changed in some places specifically to accomodate the risk of active shooters. I don't know if that would require more doors/windows or fewer.

 

[monsterkitty]

Like I posted, it was a minimum day so, they got out at noon before lunch. That wouldn't have been an issue any way. They use centralized kitchens at schools here. The lunches arrive hot and ready to serve, no cooking or reheating. So unless the power was out at the central kitchen, it was business as normal. I do wonder if the lunches were actually made and thrown out unless someone was on the ball and alerted the central kitchen that lunch had been canceled.
Wow, not sure how your classroom passed fire code with no windows. Those are usually part of the required egress. The district I live in, whose schools I attended myself, is in the middle of a 10 year project to tear down all the schools......built in the 1950's using the same cookie cutter plans.. Each side of the classroom has doors on each side, with 20 foot ceilings. The top 10 feet on both sides are all windows. The bottom of the wall is all windows too on one side. So plenty of light, but like I said, they were built in the 1950s, before ac in schools, so the cross flow of air in May, June, September and October when it might be 100 degrees or more was the goal. And on hot days the teachers used to turn off the lights to try and keep the rooms cooler. I have not been inside the new buildings, but outwardly they seem to follow the same design for windows, even though they now have ac.
This is the school I attended 1962 to 1969. It has not been been rebuilt yet but this is the same design used in all the schools in my district. So the big issue is having curtains to BLOCK the light.
View attachment 835404

My school was built in 1962. My room was on the interior of the building, like many rooms in schools across the country.

The trend in the 70s and 80's was to have windows, but they were so small a middle school or high school aged student could not fit through them. And they didn't open, and the glass was incredibly difficult to break to cut down on vandalism.

Having too many windows, like in the picture you posted, can actually be a safety hazard if there is an active shooter outside the school. The windows are like a fishbowl. Several schools are actually using grant money to get remove the windows.

What is required is that rooms have two or more exits, be that two doors in the room or a window that a person can fit through.

If windows in a school are required, the new multimillion high school that just opened in the district I live in is not up to code.

BTW, my room had horrible HVAC. They had to bring outside air into the room due to the code, so whatever the air was outside was what it was inside. However, the blowers made the already cold air colder because of the fans so it would always be around 58-62 in the winter in my room. In the warmer months, because the roof was painted black the roof temp would make the air even hotter. If it was 80 outside, it would be 90 in my room. If it was 90 outside, it would be over 100. No AC and really no heat in the winter. The cherry on top was when it snowed, I would get snow through the useless vent above my head. At least it put humor into the day!

 

[tvguy]

My school was built in 1962. My room was on the interior of the building, like many rooms in schools across the country.

The trend in the 70s and 80's was to have windows, but they were so small a middle school or high school aged student could not fit through them. And they didn't open, and the glass was incredibly difficult to break to cut down on vandalism.

Having too many windows, like in the picture you posted, can actually be a safety hazard if there is an active shooter outside the school. The windows are like a fishbowl. Several schools are actually using grant money to get remove the windows.

What is required is that rooms have two or more exits, be that two doors in the room or a window that a person can fit through.

If windows in a school are required, the new multimillion high school that just opened in the district I live in is not up to code.

BTW, my room had horrible HVAC. They had to bring outside air into the room due to the code, so whatever the air was outside was what it was inside. However, the blowers made the already cold air colder because of the fans so it would always be around 58-62 in the winter in my room. In the warmer months, because the roof was painted black the roof temp would make the air even hotter. If it was 80 outside, it would be 90 in my room. If it was 90 outside, it would be over 100. No AC and really no heat in the winter. The cherry on top was when it snowed, I would get snow through the useless vent above my head. At least it put humor into the day!

Yes, the needs change. The school I posted was built in the 1950's, probably from plans drawn up in the late 1940's. All the elementary schools in this district built in the post World War II baby boom used this design. As I noted, the school district I live in is in the process of replacing all the school buildings. Not sure if this one will be replaced because it was closed probably 30 years ago. The district still owns the building, but leases it to a private school. Enrollment has dropped sharply in that time frame. Some of the schools like this one are still being used and leased out. Others have been sold and continue to be used in this form. Some have been torn down. The elementary school closest to my house is used as a support center for parents and students. The closed high school next to it was sold to the park district with portions being used as a community center, but the bulk of the original buildings are being leased to a private Montessori school.

 

[NotUrsula]

This firm is actually one of the most successful educational architecture firms in the US; it was founded by William B. Ittner, who designed some of the most classic school buildings in the US around the turn of the 20th century.
https://www.ittnerarchitects.com (The Ittner name is currently being phased out, which is a shame, because the chief legacy of the founder is really impressive schools.)

Many of the schools that the firm built 120 years ago are still in use here, and some (including one 2 blocks from my home) have been converted into very in-demand residential lofts. I love old Ittner school buildings; they are beautiful and still very functional, as long as their electrical service and HVAC have been upgraded and the walls and fences have been repainted. The cinder-block rectangle schools from the postwar period, with the outer classroom walls made up of ranks of tilt-in jalousie windows, are probably still the most common all over the US; they are still in use all over the place, and the newer pockets of my neighborhood have a few of those as well. (The private school my DD now attends is one of those, but most of the walls have had sheetrock installed to make the rooms quieter.)

The absolute worst period for school architecture, IMO, was the late 1960s to mid-1970s, when everything on the outside was Brutalist with no windows, and everything on the inside was open-concept with folding walls forming hexagonal rooms with skylights. I think most of them have been demolished, because the noise levels were off the charts and teachers absolutely hated them. We have a few schools around here where some of the original late-60s open-plan classroom buildings were converted into big round cafeterias or libraries or auditoriums, but the classrooms were replaced by much more conventional rectangles.

 

[disneyseniors]

How do the parents feel about this new policy? Were they included in the decision making process?

While I don't agree with letting them listen to music and visit with friends, I do prefer in-school suspensions in many instances (not for violent offenders). One reason is that we do not know the home life of the student or what is happening within the home (in some cases, students are homeless or live in dangerous environments). The other is because some students do have access to wifi, tv, etc. who would just go home and play X-Box. I like the idea of keeping their butts in school, with work they must do. This of course puts an even further burden on the school system to have to supervise these students, and it does not guarantee they will even do the work.

Hi: Those kids love being in detention. They can literally do what they want. The counselor will help them "adjust" to being in detention, If you believe that! They get no correction of what they have done, and believe me some of it is down right scary. I have a close family member who worked in that environment and couldn't take it anymore and quit. She is much happier now away from that nonsense.
The parents had no decision in that. It's all on the school board to set the rules. Lots of parents are taking their kids out of this school and going with home schooling. I am amazed at the amount of kids here who are home schooled.

I am a firm believer that some form of discipline is needed - something that will give them the message that this conduct will not be allowed instead of giving them play time with friends. They laugh at it.

 

[LuvOrlando]

Me for one. Is this really common in the USA? Never heard of this happening in Canada. Military called into a school?

No, it is not a common thing in the US, it is an aberration and horrifying to think children who did nothing wrong could be subjected to such a thing like it is business as usual for the military to roll up in on a bunch of kids.